beta sprint test notes / Sammelthread

[Hansa]

who followed who?

[tusnad]

who followed who?

danut catana follow ruslan machado

[team fl]

I find it highly disturbing that a 65 sprinter with 80 flat is able to steal the wheel of a 90 sprinter with 60 flat just because the flat skill is valued more for positioning at 450m. The fight for the backwheel should not be affected by that, and if, only very little. The (relative) sprint skill should be the determinant factor.

The situation mentioned above is not only confusing, It corrupts the whole idea of the sprint and I guess also of the new sprint system. Thus maybe the fight for backwheels should be treated differently than the positioning with setting "sprint from scratch / sprint von vorne".

[Robyklebt]

The whole sprint is highly disturbing.
Look at the bright side though, we are having lot's of fun with words like "intuitive" thanks to that.

[glasgowracing]

Sprint train is on the very left. I chose "sprint from x", once that x was reached, guess where the sprinter tried to pass the train? Yeah, on the left side.
Please correct the logic. Thanks.

[luques]

One of the things that i don't like of the sprint is...

Situation:

Manager xxx build a train with a 80 and a 90 sprint, behind another sprinter of the manager xyz is following the 90 sprint, the manager xxx choose to stop follow with the 90, so the 80 goes and 90,xyz sprinter are stopped.

I think this situation is quite ridicolous:

1) In real life the 90 would probably never stop, i never see a sprinter who doesn't want to win, normally he sprint even if behind has a sprinter stronger than him. Otherwise he doesn't make a train but follows, but the train allows him to be in a comfortable position.

2) Ok ok let's say that the 90 sprinter is a coward who doesn't want to take responsabilities, what happens then in real life? Simply the others one will follow the 80 and the 90 goes at the last place of the train, only now the 80 who is in front would stops, trying to find his leader.

So what's the difference between rsf and reality? Quite simple, in rsf you follow one rider... in real life you are following the train not only the best sprinter... a solution can be that if you are following someone you can't "not follow" but have only 3 options: following the same rider, following another rider who is in front of you or in your same place, sprinting. Moreover in real life if you are going really fast and you stop sprint or stop follow, is really hard to go again to that pace, sure there will be much more energy consumption than simply following, this would be a great punishment for those cowards

[NoPikouze]

Nothing new, but the damned POSITIONING is complete bullshit !

I'm quite annoyed to race 90 minutes and then my sprinter is ~25 places BEHIND the rider he was supposed to follow, because someone else has the wheel, and then all the other guys who are hooked there get in front of mine too. Of course its not ossible to get back to the frontguys... Where is the point of riding rsf when the result is this kind of bullshit ?

[team fl]

A suggestion:

In the race info pop-up, for the race length (timewise) the time including the time for the sprint should be shown im my eyes. At the moment it's like before only the time until the sprint starts.

[Pokemon Club]

A 69 sprint who can't out a 46 sprint of the wheel of a 95 sprint, at 400m, what a fantastic thing

[Robyklebt]

Ah yes, something I didn't know yet (or maybe already forgot)
Low energy sprints are a joke. Yes, energy cost then is down, but the sprint performances are so low that to overtake a guy you'd need 800 meters or so.....

[Rockstar Inc]

last post from buhmann at 28th may...so *push*

[Rockstar Inc]

please oh dearest buhmann...please tell me how a 72/77 with 66 sprint is able to take the wheel of my classic against my sprinter with 82 flat and 80 sprint...enlight me with your answer...share the wisdom with us unworthy people..and please don't use "form" or "energy" as argument

[ProTour-Team]

looks like you had following in, as your sprinter wasnt even in the same line..

not that i really think you had it in, but for me it is the only thing i could imagine, especially as your sprinter wasnt in the lane of your train

[Rockstar Inc]

setting was as usual...
rider a from scratch, helping rider b, rider b following, helping blatchford, blatchford following...

and of course i prevented the bug "riding tempo = fucking up sprinttrain" which is of course still there... not one of my guys rode km at the last km...

blatchford didn't follow a rider from another team

[luques]

I don't know if someone other already mentioned but the way the sprint works with escapes is really bad.

In 99% of the sprint of the escapes (i mean the early escape when you arrive at the end with 0/200 Energy max) who is in front at 450m remains in front at the end.
Also if the one in first position doesn't sprint and the one in third position sprints he stay behind, he need at least 100/150m to be in front, resulting in an easy win for who is in front.
I think that if the one who is in front doesn't sprint should happen like in normal sprints, when you follow you lose some distance vs who is sprinting(if you are not following him) or just give him the position, would make the final sprint funnier.

Seems to me that the system understand they have low energy and for this their sprint is really weak, but it is relative as all have low energy, so a sprint between three riders with 100 energy should be exactly the same as 3riders at 900 energy at least in the differences they make when they sprint

I will post an image or so to be more clear when this will happen again

[sylvainmeteo]

I don't know if someone other already mentioned but the way the sprint works with escapes is really bad.

In 99% of the sprint of the escapes (i mean the early escape when you arrive at the end with 0/200 Energy max) who is in front at 450m remains in front at the end.
Also if the one in first position doesn't sprint and the one in third position sprints he stay behind, he need at least 100/150m to be in front, resulting in an easy win for who is in front.
I think that if the one who is in front doesn't sprint should happen like in normal sprints, when you follow you lose some distance vs who is sprinting(if you are not following him) or just give him the position, would make the final sprint funnier.

Seems to me that the system understand they have low energy and for this their sprint is really weak, but it is relative as all have low energy, so a sprint between three riders with 100 energy should be exactly the same as 3riders at 900 energy at least in the differences they make when they sprint

I will post an image or so to be more clear when this will happen again

Maybe decrease the 'default' speed sprint (when you follow nobody), who's almost the speed when we sprint...

[luques]

Maybe decrease the 'default' speed sprint (when you follow nobody), who's almost the speed when we sprint...

Agree! Surely the final sprint of an escape would be more interesting

[sylvainmeteo]

Another problem, see today 16h Alsace, Moscow did a train 79/92/95 and put his 60 sprint behind his sprinter, while Brad following the 95 is behind the 60 sprint guy, as a consequence I lost contact, and locked for 200 meters... why PURE sprinters AREN'T ABLE to follow PURE sprinters ?

[luques]

Another problem, see today 16h Alsace, Moscow did a train 79/92/95 and put his 60 sprint behind his sprinter, while Brad following the 95 is behind the 60 sprint guy, as a consequence I lost contact, and locked for 200 meters... why PURE sprinters AREN'T ABLE to follow PURE sprinters ?

What Moscow did i think is normal for a sprint happened to me many times and also at TdF Quickstep did something similar. I mean, they are only protecting the wheel of their sprinter and that's a good thing against those managers who have maybe a 95 sprint and want only to take the wheel of another train that will do the work for him.
It's a trick and there are quite good counter-tricks to use, for example you leadout and when the protecting man can't follow you take his wheel (did that with Deuseburger some time ago).

An option can be that as i said in a post before when you follow you follow the train not the single rider, so with a little more energy consumption you can follow the wheel of the sprinter; And this can be good both for the sprinter teams which will have an advantage in terms of energy making a train and also to sprinter who follows that can't be completely thrown out of the game

[sylvainmeteo]

The problem is not the trick, it's that 93 isn't able to follow 95 sprinter...

[luques]

The problem is not the trick, it's that 93 isn't able to follow 95 sprinter...

Yes you was following the 95 but behind him there was another man of the Moscow train, i mean not another classic rider of another team but another man of the train and this i continue think that is a good thing. For me if i do a train i want that all the men of the train are together, don't mind their power, i want them to be compact.

To follow the 95 sprinter in your case the solution are three, 1 the counter trick i told you, 2 different width of the street, and you would have overtaken his last man going close to his sprinter, 3 different overtaking mode of those who are slower.

So if your proposal is to change the way we can overtake i agree

If your proposal is to be able to break other trains not at all... look at my last stage at TdF, my sprinter can't take the wheels of MY train, Red Wine entered in it from the start and i really think is not good, otherwise we would have lot of team that will use their classic rider to break other trains resulting in a big chaos

[sylvainmeteo]

maybe just apply flat power on launching guys of trains, and set only full sprint for all who put follow maybe...

[Rockstar Inc]

An option can be that as i said in a post before when you follow you follow the train not the single rider, so with a little more energy consumption you can follow the wheel of the sprinter; And this can be good both for the sprinter teams which will have an advantage in terms of energy making a train and also to sprinter who follows that can't be completely thrown out of the game

wrong...while the race you see if often...f.e.Porte in the wheel of Froome...but directly in the sprint it never happens...that's another RSF Feature

[ATB - Racing]

[...
and of course i prevented the bug "riding tempo = fucking up sprinttrain" which is of course still there... not one of my guys rode km at the last km...

nice to know this feature.

@ SM that happened to me during the whole Tour de France several times. When Doug (92 sprint) couldnt catch the wheel of Pinder (92 sprint) which was "stolen" by Didot (80 flat - 74 sprint; by francais)

[luques]

An option can be that as i said in a post before when you follow you follow the train not the single rider, so with a little more energy consumption you can follow the wheel of the sprinter; And this can be good both for the sprinter teams which will have an advantage in terms of energy making a train and also to sprinter who follows that can't be completely thrown out of the game

wrong...while the race you see if often...f.e.Porte in the wheel of Froome...but directly in the sprint it never happens...that's another RSF Feature

I don't understand what is wrong but i try repeat all the steps...

1) just look at a casual sprint who you are following is the best sprinter doesn't mind of others who are between you and him you will try to catch his wheel even by spending more energy if there are some slower rider in front (look at Sagan at last TdF he always tried to get the wheels of the best sprinters even if his men couldn't take him to the front resulting in more energy consumption (distance to cover + wind)).
2) if i want make a train as 6x-8x-7x sprinter i can why not?? If the 7x after will be not able to follow amen! but let me the freedom to choose
3) If you are speaking about the possibility to break a train, yes in reality the train are broken quite often, but this would imply a lot of work with consequent problems...

@ATB: honestly i think we are speaking of different things, what team was Doug? Was of francais? If yes for me is right, his train he decide how to make it... if not i agree with you the battle for the wheels should be between sprinters