Suggestion for the offseason calendar

[cataracs]

I have a point!
Previous December Tour dates:

• 05.12.2016

• 04.12.2017

• 03.12.2018

• 02.12.2019

So for this year...it should be 01.12.2020!!!

And, The RSF/C4F Classics, the Cat3's should have the same dates as last year!

[Hansa]

I have a point!
Previous December Tour dates:

• 05.12.2016

• 04.12.2017

• 03.12.2018

• 02.12.2019

So for this year...it should be 01.12.2020!!!

And, The RSF/C4F Classics, the Cat3's should have the same dates as last year!

No it should be the 7th december because its always the first monday in december.

[team fl]

You guys need an updated draft, or is that enough orientation for you? I guess the main open point now is the suggestion for classic races in the offseason anyway. RKL?

[Pokemon Club]

Related of off season but not only, so I posted here.

I had a look today on the one day race DB. It is a bit a mess, but ok I tried to focus on fantasy "new races" only and to class them by localisation. I put some comment about what maybe names and cobbles problems, races that don't seems finished but I surely missed some of them.

Anyway, I don't know if that will help, but you can find everything in the link below.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =485473360

[team fl]

As the December Tour thread is open already, I also start the discussion here.

Also feel free to start the discussion about offseason classics in this thread: http://www.radsportfreaks.de/RSFForum/v ... =37&t=5342

So here is the first draft of the offseason calendar 2021/22 to serve as a basis for a discussion:

[Gipfelstuermer]

As the December Tour thread is open already, I also start the discussion here.

Also feel free to start the discussion about offseason classics in this thread: http://www.radsportfreaks.de/RSFForum/v ... =37&t=5342

So here is the first draft of the offseason calendar 2021/22 to serve as a basis for a discussion:

Thanks for the first draft, Team FL! Good to have you organise the off-season!

Some questions:
1) Tour des Pavés --> Who is designing that or is it going to be a competition?
2) Small Tour in early November --> Perhaps allow one rest day before Andes?
3) Small Tour in late November --> 3 RSF Classics parallel to it is intended?

Some ideas:
1) Cyclocross: Has become way more popular recently thanks to MVDP, WVA, Pidcock and others..., especially the races after Christmas including the World championship. The races are typically very short (25-50km), based on 4-6km laps. It's not really our usual format, and it's even a challenge designing them, e.g. obstacles we can't really implement. But we could implement the gravel & hills to make it interesting. We can also have a ranking for the series of cyclocross races (in the forum as ingame nothing will happen). It would be 10 races in total. To summarize, it could be a fun way to implement some popular races but my main motivation for this idea is that very short races could attract players who normally don't play much RSF in winter.

https://cyclocross24.com/calendar/2021- ... /?class=C1

2) Gravel Races: Races like Unbound Gravel, the Belgian Waffle Rides or Badlands have become popular events as well. They are usually very long (200-300k or even more) and include many stretches of gravel. Similar to Strade Bianche or Gravel and Tar, but less focussed on pro racing... Most of them happen in the summer, but that is when we are busy with UCI road racing. So we could instead select the most interesting ones and ride those. Again, there is a challenge in designing them (might have to cut some of them short or split into 2-3 one day races), but would be a nice new feature and could attract some players. We could also have a ranking for the gravel series in the forum (similar as the idea for cyclocross).

https://www.unboundgravel.com/
https://belgianwaffleride.bike/
https://www.transiberica.cc/badlands/

These are really just ideas. Maybe 10 cyclocross races (on real dates) and 8 gravel races (2 for each month from Oct - Jan) could be a possibility. I offer to design them and create a ranking in the forum.

What do you think? If you like the idea, we'd just have to select some dates and put the races in your column "Race 2". You can also reject these ideas if you think they are stupid. I have enough to design with Andes and December Tour

[team fl]

Some questions:
1) Tour des Pavés --> Who is designing that or is it going to be a competition?
2) Small Tour in early November --> Perhaps allow one rest day before Andes?
3) Small Tour in late November --> 3 RSF Classics parallel to it is intended?

ad 1) I have no idea. So far, i haven't thought about a competition, but if there is enough time, why not.

ad 2) Thought about that too, but as far as I won't ride the Andes... . But seriously, it sounds reasonable.

ad 3) As far as I set them there, yes, it's intended. I think that teams who don't ride stage races should have nice races too. But of course, as everything else, that's up for discussion.

Your other ideas are best discussed in an own thread I'd say, for a general discussion and not specifically about the offseason calendar.

[team fl]

I am sorry, but still being very laz... ehm very busy. I hope the calender guys can use the current draft for their planning.

[Gipfelstuermer]

Why this idea to design Cyclocross races?
1.) Cyclocross has become very popular thanks to Stybar, van der Poel, van Aert, Pidcock and others
2.) We have less players these days, esp. when it's long 180km+ one day races in parallel to tours
3.) The races can be designed in an interesting way without making them too extreme

--> Short races can be interesting for teams who have little time in off-season.

What is Cyclocross?
- Cyclocross races are typically happening on a 3-5km technical lap
- The lap can include mud, grass, gravel, sand and obstacles
- Riders ride 5-10 laps, totalling typically 20-40km (the rule is to finish after 60min riding)

Where do you find information about the course?
https://cyclocross24.com typically has a map + a video.
Example here: https://cyclocross24.com/race/heusden-zolder/

How do you design that in RSF?
- 1km remains 1km
- Normal road remains normal road
- Climbs/Downhill remain Climbs/Downhill
- Gravel, grass, mud normally become *
- Deep mud or sand or obstacles become ** (some judgement is necessary here)
- Never go beyond *** to make the races not too pavé friendly
- Bridges can increase the steepness of a km, esp. the spectacular high bridges (like in Ostend last year).
- Of course some interpretation is necessary and also trying to create some variation in the courses (of course could do 0* 0* 0* 0* for each course but would be too boring).
- The strongest rider type should be sprinters, but there should be some possibility to attack and to sieb (some ** and sometimes hills up to +5/+6). This is in line with cyclocross, where strong sprinters (like van Aert and van der Poel) who can survive hills and obstacles are the most successful riders

27.12.: Superprestige Heusden-Zolder

Profile: http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... den_zolder
Lap: +1* -2** +1** 0
Description: Start and Finish is on the Dutch race track "Circuit Zolder" known from Formula 1 races, so the finish is clearly a 0. But the circuit goes wildly through some surrounding forest, so there we have a bit of up and down and difficult terrain.
Video: https://cyclocross24.com/race/heusden-zolder/
Type: Hilly
Min-Tact: km1
Duration: 33min

29.12.: Superprestige Diegem

Profile: http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... nen=diegem
Lap: 0* +3 -2** -1**
Description: Riders first go through a small technical part (the 0*) then up a hill through the city of Diegem (that's the +3) and then through a more difficult technical part (-2** -1**).
Video: https://cyclocross24.com/race/diegem/
Type: Hilly
Min-Tact: km1
Duration: 36min

30.12.: Azencross

Profile: http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... =azencross
Lap: +1 0** 0** -1
Description: The course starts and ends on the Brechtesweg, which is a normal street. In the middle part, the race mainly goes through deep deep mud. There are a few bumps and bridges, but not too much. The main challenge is the deep mud, so I put 0** 0**.
Video: https://cyclocross24.com/de/race/loenhout/
Type: Flat
Min-Tact: km1
Duration: 32min

Remaining Calendar
01.01. GP Sven Nys
22.01. Flandriencross
30.01. UCI World Championships Fayetteville
06.02. Krawatencross
12.02. Superprestige Gavere
13.02. Brussels Universities Cyclocross
20.02. Internationale Sluitingsprijs Oostmalle

[Robyklebt]

Ok ok, I'll put them on... right date.

But to be honest I'm not too big a fan of having very similar very short races every other day, 27-29-30, then later more. Especially since I don't see how the c4f engine can really simulate that properly. How many riders per team btw? But ok, will be on. If I don't forget...

But thinking about having other races the same day too. Kind of like with the ITT and TTT one day races lately.

[Gipfelstuermer]

Ok ok, I'll put them on... right date.

But to be honest I'm not too big a fan of having very similar very short races every other day, 27-29-30, then later more. Especially since I don't see how the c4f engine can really simulate that properly. How many riders per team btw? But ok, will be on. If I don't forget...

But thinking about having other races the same day too. Kind of like with the ITT and TTT one day races lately.

Cool, that's nice. And ok for me to put some parallel race. Good way to see if players like it or not. If it's successful with half decent participation (whatever that means with Christmas Tour and another parallel race), we can keep the idea. If nobody rides, we don't have to continue with these.

And yes, c4f engine wont be the best simulation here. It's more about some variety in the off season calendar and giving something to players who might have little time to play or those who follow cyclocross in real life.

Riders per team: I put 5 riders. Should be enough for such short races and keeps it somewhat close to reality where teamwork is not so decisive in these races.

[Gipfelstuermer]

We don't know the success of the cyclocross series yet, but it can be nice to have some short interesting races in January/February.

So I designed the remaining Cyclocross Races for the season below.

Of course they don't have to be ridden on the real date if something speaks against that. For example, I think we have an off-season classic on the 1st of January normally. If the cyclocross can take place 1-3 days later, it can still be interesting.

Remaining Calendar
01.01. GP Sven Nys
22.01. Flandriencross
30.01. UCI World Championships Fayetteville
06.02. Krawatencross
12.02. Superprestige Gavere
13.02. Brussels Universities Cyclocross
20.02. Internationale Sluitingsprijs Oostmalle

01.01.: GP Sven Nys

Profile: http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... =gpsvennys
Lap: +2** -2** +2 -2**
Description: This course is characterized by a lot of up and down as they basically ride around a small hill on the cycling center of Sven Nys in Baal, Belgium. Typically, the whole course consists out of deep deep mud, except for the little hill in the middle of the course, which is on asphalt.
Video: https://cyclocross24.com/de/race/baal/
Type: Flat
Min-Tact: km1
Duration: 36min

22.01.: Flandriencross

Profile: http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... driencross
Lap: +1* -1** +1** -1* 0
Description: The Flandriencross starts and ends on a flat road. It's quite short, so I doubted to put it as a 0, but ok... can put the 0 as it is a relatively long course overall (I rounded up from 4.1km to 5km ^^). The course is characterized by a lot of mud and grass. In the middle there is a smal hill, where they go up, down, up, down, up down... difficult to simulate that in C4F, but I thought the -1** +1** is fair enough.
Video: https://cyclocross24.com/de/race/hamme/
Type: Flat
Min-Tact: km1
Duration: 41min

30.01.: UCI Cyclocross World Championship 2022 - Fayetteville

Profile: http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... yetteville
Lap: +4** -4 +2*** -2* 0
Description: This year's world championship course has two main challenges: The first one is a muddy climb. For a cyclocross race, it's a really long climb, so +4 seems realistic. Later on the course, there are really long stairs, some 30 steps I guess. Clearly more than in normal cyclocross stairs. So for that one +2*** seemed realistic. After all, it is the world championship so it also has to be a bit extreme and hard.
Video: https://cyclocross24.com/de/race/world-championships/
Type: Flat
Min-Tact: km1
Duration: 36min

06.02. Krawatencross

Profile: http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... watencross
Lap: 0 0** 1* -1*
Description: A relatively easy course at first sight, but the Sand part is quite tough. It deserves a 0** at least.
Video: https://cyclocross24.com/de/race/lille/
Type: Flat
Min-Tact: km1
Duration: 36min

12.02. Superprestige Gavere

Profile: http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... nen=gavere
Lap: +2 -2** +2* -2
Description: The Gavere Superprestige starts and ends on a relatively long asphalt road, so I put no dirt road there. The part in the middle is very technical with a relatively fast decent with many corners (-2**) and a normal technical part uphill (+2*).
Video: https://cyclocross24.com/de/race/gavere/
Type: Flat
Min-Tact: km1
Duration: 32min

13.02. Brussels Universities Cyclocross

Profile: http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... university
Lap: 0 +1* -1* 0
Description: The name sounds like a school children race, but in fact it belongs to the X20 Trofee and typically features all the big cyclocross names. The course is indeed a bit easier though. Probably one for the sprinters!
Video: https://cyclocross24.com/de/race/brussels/
Type: Flat
Min-Tact: km1
Duration: 28min

20.02. Internationale Sluitingsprijs Oostmalle

Profile: http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... =oostmalle
Lap: 0** 0** 0
Description: The traditional end of the cyclocroos season on Oostmalle. The start/finish is on an airport so it deserves to be a flat road. The course itself is hard with lots of sandy parts but no bigger hills. So it is the flattest but not easiest course.
Video: https://cyclocross24.com/de/race/oostmalle/
Type: Flat
Min-Tact: km1
Duration: 31min

[team fl]

'Tis the season again! The first draft of the offseason calendar 2022/23 is done and open for public discussion.

Guess the real October stuff will be done by the calendar guy anyway

The thread for the discussion about C4F classics for the offseason calender will be open soon too!

[Robyklebt]

For January: Tour Down Under is on the program again (at least for the moment) 17th-22nd it seems.

[Gipfelstuermer]

Tour Down Under, I agree. You can also pencil in Gravel and Tar for 21 January.

Three more suggestions:

1) Tour des Pavés
Question is, who designs it? Poke has done it in previous years, so we can invite him to do it again or have a competition for it. But needs to be done relatively soon. Have it public by end of month would be nice, even though last year I think it only came in October and that was acceptable, too, of course.

Same question for X-Mas Tour, by the way, but less urgent.

2) Cyclocross
We tried it last year with a parallel race every day. Well, there was usually a parallel tour on top and we had extremely low numbers back then, so very much not representative, I guess... Anyway, the cyclocross races had 3.1 teams per edition and the parallel races had 2.9 teams per edition.

We had 10 cyclocross races in total in Dec, Jan & Feb. We can do the same again (now even easier, because mostly these races don't need a new design). The calendar would be the following:

3.12. Superprestige Gavere
27.12. Superprestige Heusden-Zolder
28.12. Superprestige Diegem
30.12. Azencross
02.01. GP Sven Nys
05.01. Vlaamse Duinencross
28.01. Flandriencross
05.02. UCI World Championship Hoogerheide
12.02. Krawatencross
19.02. Brussels Universities Cyclocross

Only Duinencross and the World Championship would need a new design. I can do it, I guess.

3) Historical Races
Last year I designed the 1904 Tour de France, which was disqualified from December Tour and never ridden. We could have one spot in the off-season calendar for a "Historical Race". In the future, it can be a short historical tour like this one, or it could be a small series of historical races like Paris-Brest-Paris and Bordeaux–Paris. Not sure if we have space in the calendar and whether the number of active players is enough for another special tour (as we have Pavé and Andes already), but I still like the idea

All just suggestions. Calendar looks fine without those races too.

[team fl]

ad 1.) There have been other designers too. But yes, why not ask Pokemon. Wouldn't do a competition though...

ad 2.) You're pretty obsessed with cyclocross. Do we really need that? We still have the C4F classics as interesting one day races. I am perfectly happy with just "normal" races. But if you insist (and last offseason, it was a thing somehow), then leave it at max. 1-2 cyclocross races a month at least, in my opinion.

ad 3.) Off season should be realistic in the aspect that the races are mainly in the Southern hemisphere due to temparature. Some exceptions like the GP Letzebuerg for example. But then again, do we really need that? We already have C.d.l.A, Decembertour and January tour. So a special tour every month.

[Robyklebt]

1) Yes yes, get somebody to design it. With our new designers I'm sure we'll find somebody soon. They seem eager, RKL likes it. Except their mintacts of course

2) No we don't need it. To answer FLs question. But on the other hand it doesn't hurt anybody either. So same deal as last year seems ok for me, like TTs and TTTs nowadays, get's half the editions of the 1 day races. (If we ever manage to get up to 5 1 day races a day again would keep it at 2) Nothing really speaks against having them again (and nothing really for it, I'm fully in the who cares camp on that one) So sometimes I'll have that as only option to ride, so I ride it, no problem. If I remember correctly there was some criticism on number of riders? Or other stuff? Up to the designer (Gipfel) to change or not change that. Or maybe I remember wrong anyway.

3) We had another designer who was eager to design historical races, spaniard, nice guy, forgot his name, will remember when I see it again...

Short tour like the first TdF? With all the days off that was a rather long tour. Here again I absolutely don't see the need for it, and to be honest can't get too excited about it either. Ride MSR without the Cipressa? Oookay, but is it fun Coppa Placci!! But ok, if it's there I would ride it, the problem I see more is that we don't really have much space for more tours or days reserved for something special. Andes, Dec tour, January tour take already up a lot of the available space. And I think it's nice to let designers create something of their own too, Rather have them have fun creating a short tour than do what they do inseason, recreate something. Plus the climate thing, for the moment I'm not a fan.

Other things::

Parallel tour to the Andes?
Andes are long, Andes are for climbers. Like 2 years ago a short Tour for sprinters parallel? Do we have the numbers? Don't know, last year finally the Andes were surprisingly well attended. 7-7-9 Parallel races much less, c4f offseason classic GP de Chelly with 2-5-4-6, other races with less teams... But probably we have slightly more players again now, enough for a short mostly flat(tish) tour (Bahama Mama for example would fit rather well (except the mountain finish, grrr) if we haven't ridden that yet, but don't think we did.) Just to give the teams with no climbers a short tour too. But enough managers? 2 years ago the sprint de los Andes had glorious participation, 8-10-11, was of course a much better design that Bahama Mama too.... ok ok, still way more managers. Andes had 6-2-14-14... another era.
But the question remains, while I don't really think we do have the numbers, shouldn't we offer something for those that don't want to ride the Andes. Stage race wise (I would have cancelled the Andes 21 and possibly 22 instead, but that never was popular, people don't know what's sensible and not clearly) 3-4 Andes, 2 times a short mostly flat tour like BM. 4 days seems about the right length...Opinions?

[Pokemon Club]

1) No time for me to draw something since month paves won't be an exception

2) Not a big fan, the races are too fast for me

3) Historical races I have no opinions about it

[Chemnitz Pro Cycling Team]

1) Yes yes, get somebody to design it. With our new designers I'm sure we'll find somebody soon. They seem eager, RKL likes it. Except their mintacts of course

2) No we don't need it. To answer FLs question. But on the other hand it doesn't hurt anybody either. So same deal as last year seems ok for me, like TTs and TTTs nowadays, get's half the editions of the 1 day races. (If we ever manage to get up to 5 1 day races a day again would keep it at 2) Nothing really speaks against having them again (and nothing really for it, I'm fully in the who cares camp on that one) So sometimes I'll have that as only option to ride, so I ride it, no problem. If I remember correctly there was some criticism on number of riders? Or other stuff? Up to the designer (Gipfel) to change or not change that. Or maybe I remember wrong anyway.

3) We had another designer who was eager to design historical races, spaniard, nice guy, forgot his name, will remember when I see it again...

Short tour like the first TdF? With all the days off that was a rather long tour. Here again I absolutely don't see the need for it, and to be honest can't get too excited about it either. Ride MSR without the Cipressa? Oookay, but is it fun Coppa Placci!! But ok, if it's there I would ride it, the problem I see more is that we don't really have much space for more tours or days reserved for something special. Andes, Dec tour, January tour take already up a lot of the available space. And I think it's nice to let designers create something of their own too, Rather have them have fun creating a short tour than do what they do inseason, recreate something. Plus the climate thing, for the moment I'm not a fan.

Other things::

Parallel tour to the Andes?
Andes are long, Andes are for climbers. Like 2 years ago a short Tour for sprinters parallel? Do we have the numbers? Don't know, last year finally the Andes were surprisingly well attended. 7-7-9 Parallel races much less, c4f offseason classic GP de Chelly with 2-5-4-6, other races with less teams... But probably we have slightly more players again now, enough for a short mostly flat(tish) tour (Bahama Mama for example would fit rather well (except the mountain finish, grrr) if we haven't ridden that yet, but don't think we did.) Just to give the teams with no climbers a short tour too. But enough managers? 2 years ago the sprint de los Andes had glorious participation, 8-10-11, was of course a much better design that Bahama Mama too.... ok ok, still way more managers. Andes had 6-2-14-14... another era.
But the question remains, while I don't really think we do have the numbers, shouldn't we offer something for those that don't want to ride the Andes. Stage race wise (I would have cancelled the Andes 21 and possibly 22 instead, but that never was popular, people don't know what's sensible and not clearly) 3-4 Andes, 2 times a short mostly flat tour like BM. 4 days seems about the right length...Opinions?

2) I don't need Cyclocross tbh.

3) historical races would be cool!

parallel tour to Andes: Give us (or whoever) a parallel tour! Good alternative and maybe not as much empty races like during the Vuelta.

[team fl]

Ok, so what I will add to the 2nd draft:

- Small parallel tour to Andes
- European Peace Race
- TDU in January

Details for 1st half October, Langkawi in or out, Cyclocross races, etc. (day to day detail work) is up to the calendar guys.

Have I forgotten something?

[team fl]

Here is the 2nd draft then:

[Robyklebt]

Thought was clear that Down Under in meant Amissa Bongo out.... blah

[team fl]

Thought was clear that Down Under in meant Amissa Bongo out.... blah

Usually you're not afraid of long explanations and clear announcements. Not used to interpret your implied wishes

[flockmastoR]

Thought was clear that Down Under in meant Amissa Bongo out.... blah

Usually you're not afraid of long explanations and clear announcements. Not used to interpret your implied wishes

[Robyklebt]

Well, thinking it over it actually can stay (Although I personally don't see the appeal of another never-ending flat tour...)

But of course if San Juan is ridden again next year (couldn't find anything on their site) it will be either-or, not and, so as a great man and horrible manager usually says, regard it Amissa Bongo as a place holder!