Campenato de los Andre 10.00 Uhr

[Ille Racing]

Im heutigen Rennen hat sich Nessundorma einen riesengroßen Vorteil am km 156 auf das GK durch einen Teamangriff verschafft!
Zurückfallen lassen erst ab km 164 und nicht mit dem Fahrer der im GK wichtig ist!
Wir haben ihn mehrmals darauf hingewiesen. Ich bitte um Ausschluß aus der Tour oder um Rücknahme der Zeitvorteile.
Danke Ille Racing


Km: 156, Steigung: 6
Simone Bertolin (nessundorma) attackiert
Nikita Saidov (RV Zahna) schafft es nicht mitzugehen
Filippo Mastorci (nessundorma) attackiert
Cristiano Fabrizi (nessundorma) attackiert
Mario Walters (Golden State Team) kann nicht mithalten
Mikel Shera (SV Furpach) kann nicht mithalten
Kooshaa Talimaan (Cologne Procycs) kann nicht mithalten
Heinz Heuser (Cologne Procycs) kann nicht mithalten
Michele Schuster (CircleCycle) kann nicht mithalten
Kooshaa Talimaan (Cologne Procycs) schafft es nicht an die Spitze
Michele Schuster (CircleCycle) schafft es nicht an die Spitze
Manfred Rodriguez (CircleCycle) schafft es nicht an die Spitze

Zurückfallen lassen erst ab km 156 und nicht mit dem Fahrer der im GK wichtig ist!

[team fl]

Hat er den Fahrer zurückfallen lassen, mit dem er vorher Tempo gefahren ist oder einen der anderen beiden? Oder ist er mit allen bis auf den GK Fahrer direkt nach der Attacke Tempo gefahren?

Was haben die anderen Teams gemacht, die anschliessend in der gleichen Gruppe waren? Sind die irgendwann Tempo gefahren und wenn ja, wer?

[nessundorma]

I attacked on 6%, I realized that this gradient could attack with more than 2 riders. I was told that I had made a team-attack, have returned to read me the rules. unfortunately no one followed me, so I immediately returned with a group of runners who had made the attack. I was told to come back in a group with the captain. I've seen games where, under a charge of team-attack, then found to be false, some teams have missed the opportunity, while others have taken advantage.
I await with confidence the judgment of the committee.

[nessundorma]

I attacked on 6%, I realized that this gradient could attack with more than 2 riders. I was told that I had made a team-attack, have returned to read me the rules. unfortunately no one followed me, so I immediately returned with a group of runners who had made the attack. I was told to come back in a group with the captain. I've seen games where, under a charge of team-attack, then found to be false, some teams have missed the opportunity, while others have taken advantage.
I await with confidence the judgment of the committee.

scrivo anche in italiano visto che la traduzione potrebbe essere fatta male
io ho attaccato sul 6%, avevo capito che su questa pendenza si potesse attaccare con più di 2 corridori. Mi è stato detto che avevo fatto un team-attack, sono riandato a leggermi il regolamento. purtroppo nessuno mi ha seguito, quindi sono subito rientrato in gruppo con uno dei corridori che aveva fatto l'attacco, che al momento dell'attacco era quella che faceva il ritmo in gruppo. Mi è stato detto di tornare in gruppo con il capitano. Io ho visto gare dove sotto un accusa di team-attack, poi risultata falsa, alcuni team hanno perso l'occasione, mentre altri ne hanno approfittato.
Io attendo con serenità il giudizio del comitato.

[Robyklebt]

At least try to write english in the international part. Especially since the guy with the team attack isn't a german speaker. If you can't speak ANY english, at least put it through google translate...

Versuch wenigstens das ganze auf Englisch zu schreiben, besonders wenn der mit dem Teamangrifff nicht deutschsprachig ist. Wenn du gar kein Englisch kannst, wenigstens mit google translate übersetzen und posten.... beide Versionen dann.

Ich bleibe jetzt aus Protest gegen "nur Deutsch" auf Englisch

FL: There was nobody that followed, as you can see from the posted log. But did others that were ahead before and caught collaborate maybe interesting. And the question about tempo of Fabrizi, the dropped one at 164 of course important. So did Fabrizi ride? Alone?

It clearly was a team attack. The reaction in the chat:

nessundorma: sorry guys, I came back with a runner as soon as I understood the rule. but now put -3 and open a thread, I wait and respect the decision of fair play committee
Golden State Team: cologne, why didnt u attack earlier with pesto?
doro-team: gl
CircleCycle: gl
Golden State Team: good luck for sprint for all
Cologne Procycs: gl in front
Golden State Team: nessu: we will speak english from the next stage on, but Ille thinks you won't make one more.
Ille Racing: kannst ihm sagen das er warscheinlich keine Etappe mehr macht !!!
Cologne Procycs: sure
RV Zahna: i think it's possible to speak english ^^
Golden State Team: und nessu hat auf italienisch gefragt wie es aussieht wegen englisch sprechen auf der nächsten etappe
Golden State Team: group in front, dont forget sprinting
Ille Racing: nessundorma let Bertolin fall !!!!!
Golden State Team: and nessu: Ci dispiace che stiamo parlando solo tedesco, a partire dalla fase successiva di nuovo italiano
Ille Racing: dann soll er ihn fallen lassen !!!
RV Zahna: Ille du solltest das aber auch nicht ins Forum stellen, offensichtlich wusste er es ja wirklich nicht
nessundorma: nothing changee fabrizi was dead and still in group his mistake to don't work for yellow shirt still remain
Ille Racing: danke Golden
Golden State Team: he won't accept such an illegal impact to the GC
Golden State Team: and Ille means he will report it
Golden State Team: and thats not allowed
Golden State Team: and not in the last 10km
Golden State Team: with 3 riders
Golden State Team: it was a normal team attack out of one group
Golden State Team: nessu: zahna says u mean a linked team attack, but it wasnt. The rules u expleained
Ille Racing: kannst ihm sagen das ich seine Teamattacke melde und das er sich so einen Vorteil auf das GK macht und ich das nicht akzeptiere !!!
RV Zahna: er spielt sich auf eine verkettete Attacke an, aber das war ja keine
nessundorma: certo che se scrivete solo tedesco io non posso capirci nulla
Golden State Team: glückwunsch übrigens an die gruppe
Golden State Team: ich übersetze
Golden State Team: was willste denn sagen?
RV Zahna: er hat unrecht, aber auf englisch kann ich dass jetzt nicht erklären
nessundorma: then if my action is not legal open a thread
nessundorma: i return in group with one puller
nessundorma: if any follow is team attack
nessundorma: no team attack
nessundorma: if only one follow me
nessundorma: sorry guys
nessundorma: i read the rules
doro-team: @ CircleCycle : why you make tempo in peloton?
Golden State Team: alleine bringts nix
Golden State Team: jetzt vergesst nicht die gruppe jungs
Ille Racing: erst mit 3 Mann angreifen 10 km fahren und den schwächsten zurückfallen lassen !!! Das ist ein Witz und alles andere als fair !!!
Golden State Team: jetzt
Golden State Team: bei -4 wieder alle rein
Ille Racing: tssssss
Ille Racing: naja dann wohl den !!!
Golden State Team: one of these 3
Golden State Team: it was
Golden State Team: yep, just read the fairness-rules again
RV Zahna: Bertolin muss er nicht fallen lassen, nur einen von den 3
CircleCycle: ille sieht das offensichtlich nicht so
Ille Racing: nessundorma let Bertolin fall!!! This was an Teamattack !!!
Cologne Procycs: im berg ja
RV Zahna: erst auf den letzten 20 km
Cologne Procycs: thx
CircleCycle: man darf mit 3 fahrern attackieren?
Golden State Team: bei -4 und mehr die abfahrtstsraken fahrer ins tempo
nessundorma: 6%
RV Zahna: so jetzt müssen alle außer mir arbeiten... sehr gut ^^
Cologne Procycs: doro +circle pls w8
Ille Racing: team attack !!!

Few comments:
1. A bit more english might speed up the reaction... yes, there was some english there used, good job by Golden, but a bit more wouldn't hurt.
2. It seems nessundorma didn't now the rules, no bad intent. That's not an excuse though, have to know the rules!
3. As he writes, as soon as he reread the rules, he let one fall. Good. So it's not as if he profited forever from it. And doesn't look as if he tried to use the "full benefit" of the team attack. Unfair team attack, but the very reasonable and fair reaction, in the race, he let one fall, in the chat, he admits he's wrong, he apologizes.
4. Who was in tempo at the moment of the attack? If it was one of the 3 attackers, then even if would he let Fabrizi fall immediately he would still get an advantage from the team attack. It's going around the work of doing a sectrick to attack with the 2 he wanted to use, a sectrick that maybe can be seen and thus the escape "blocked"... doesn't seem to have been his intent, but a team attack gives you that advantage as well
5. Did Fabrizi ride before he dropped back? Alone? With the other guy?

[Robyklebt]

Oh, nessundorma already wrote:

NO need to fall back with the captain at all.
In the rules it just says: Fall back with one. No specification on which.
But generally it's understood and common sense that the guy falling back shouldn't have worked yet, so that you don't really get an advantage of the teamattack. That's not explicitly written in the rules, but is really common sense. And I guess if somebody let's fall a guy who didn't work, there won't be a problem at all in most cases, if he let fall a guy who did work, the committee will probably be less lenient.

So, you were right in not letting fall back your captain.
But the question is, did Fabrizi ride in those 8 or so km in front? If yes, alone or with the other guy?

[nessundorma]

fabrizi ran for a mile after the attack, I went to see the rules immediately.
I removed fabrizi of time, immediately. after realizing that only in the event that another runner behind me was not team attack, I did come back immediately in fabrizi group. I misunderstood this rule on the slopes of the attack, it was not my intention to take advantage gk but recovered on the white jersey.
I look with confidence to the judgment of the committee, if I'm wrong is right you pay, of course I hope that the sanction is proportionate.
Nessundorma

sempre in italiano per evitare errori

fabrizi ha corso per un km, dopo l'attacco, sono andato a vedere le regole subito.
Ho tolto fabrizi dal tempo, immediatamente. dopo aver capito che solo in caso in cui altro corridore mi seguiva non era team attack, ho fatto ritornare immediatamente fabrizi in gruppo. io ho capito male questa regola dell'attacco sulle pendenze, non era mia intenzione prendere vantaggio sulla gk ma recuperare sulla maglia bianca.
Io aspetto con tranquillità il giudizio del comitato, se ho sbagliato è giusto che paghi, ovviamente spero che la sanzione, sia proporzionata.
nessundorma

[Ille Racing]

Oh, nessundorma already wrote:

NO need to fall back with the captain at all.
In the rules it just says: Fall back with one. No specification on which.
But generally it's understood and common sense that the guy falling back shouldn't have worked yet, so that you don't really get an advantage of the teamattack. That's not explicitly written in the rules, but is really common sense. And I guess if somebody let's fall a guy who didn't work, there won't be a problem at all in most cases, if he let fall a guy who did work, the committee will probably be less lenient.

So, you were right in not letting fall back your captain.
But the question is, did Fabrizi ride in those 8 or so km in front? If yes, alone or with the other guy?

Es gab davor eine Gruppe mit 5-6 Fahrern. Nesseundorma kam später und griff mit 3 Leuten an um an die Gruppe heranzufahren! Fabrizi ist alleine gefahren bevor er sich zurückfallen ließ! Er hat ihn nach 8-9 km fallen lassen aber da war der Vorteil schon zu groß. Hätte er seinen Kapitän fallengelassen wär keiner böse gewesen aber so war es Absicht ! Bertolin ist nur 1 km gefahren und das am Ende! Wäre Fabrizi vorher nicht gefahren wäre er nie durchgekommen! Es ist einfach eine Teamattacke und er hat dadurch 1 min. durch unfaires fahren gewonnen. Sorry aber wenn das nicht bestraft wird kann das ja jeder machen und dann brauchen wir keine Regeln. Sorry aber fair geht vor !!!

There was previously a group of 5-6 riders. Nesseundorma came later and attacked with 3 people in order to drive up close to the group! Fabrizi is driven alone before he dropped back! He has let it fall to 8-9 km but because the advantage was too great. Had he dropped his captain would not have been angry but it was on purpose! Bertolin is driven only 1 km and at the end! Fabrizi would not previously gone through he would never come! It's just a team attack and he has thus 1 min. go through unfair won. Sorry but if that is not punished so that can make each and then we do not need rules. Sorry but fair comes first!

[Robyklebt]

Ille Racing: gar nichts! Die Sache liegt klar auf der Hand aber unternommen wurde nichts. Ich hab als letztes nochmal meinen Teil geschrieben und seit 2 Tagen keine Antwort mehr vom "Faiplay-Team" . Wenn du mich fragst totale Verarsche!!! Werd mich auch nicht mehr an die Regeln halten und dann ist gut ^^

Nur so als Info: Du hast noch überhaupt keine Antwort von Fairnesscomitteemitgliedern bekommen. Nicht nur seit dem letzten Post. Bis jetzt hat sich noch überhaupt kein Mitglied hier im Thread zu Wort gemeldet

Just for your info. You haven't got any response from the Fairnesscomittee members. Not just no response since your last answer. So far no member has posted anything in this thread

[Golden State Team]

There was previously a group of 5-6 riders. Nesseundorma came later and attacked with 3 people in order to drive up close to the group! Fabrizi is driven alone before he dropped back! He has let it fall to 8-9 km but because the advantage was too great. Had he dropped his captain would not have been angry but it was on purpose! Bertolin is driven only 1 km and at the end! Fabrizi would not previously gone through he would never come! It's just a team attack and he has thus 1 min. go through unfair won. Sorry but if that is not punished so that can make each and then we do not need rules. Sorry but fair comes first!

I was a part of the race and I can confirm this.

[nessundorma]

There was previously a group of 5-6 riders. Nesseundorma came later and attacked with 3 people in order to drive up close to the group! Fabrizi is driven alone before he dropped back! He has let it fall to 8-9 km but because the advantage was too great. Had he dropped his captain would not have been angry but it was on purpose! Bertolin is driven only 1 km and at the end! Fabrizi would not previously gone through he would never come! It's just a team attack and he has thus 1 min. go through unfair won. Sorry but if that is not punished so that can make each and then we do not need rules. Sorry but fair comes first!

I was a part of the race and I can confirm this.

you confirm what? fabrizi to the fact that time?, I continued to race all 3 runners? I after reading the rules I have not invoked immediately fabrizi apologizing? I was told after calling fabrizi, I had to stop the Bertolin? Again, I have no problem to accept sanctions by the committee, then talk to you that from my own attack you earned?.
The problem is that ille afraid of not winning the round, only because it is not able to control a game, goes on the escape, leaving his captain at the mercy of events.
I solve the problem that seems to Ille an incompetent.
ASK THE CANCELLATION TEAM NESSUNDROMA TOUR ANDE.
At least Ille happy and will be able to win the tour.



tu confermi che cosa ? che fabrizi a fatto tempo dopo l'attacco?, che ho continuato a correre con tutti e 3 i corridori? che io dopo avere letto le regole non ho richiamato subito fabrizi chiedendo scusa? che mi è stato detto dopo avere richiamato fabrizi, che dovevo fermare il bertolin? Ripeto non ho problema ad accettare sanzioni da parte del comitato, poi parli proprio tu che dal mio attacco hai guadagnato?.
Il problema è che ille ha paura di non vincere il giro, solo perchè non è capace a controllare una gara, va in fuga, e lascia il suo capitano in balia degli eventi.
Risolvo il problema a ille che sembra un incapace.
CHIEDO UFFICIALMENTE LA CANCELLAZIONE DEL TEAM NESSUNDROMA DAL TOUR ANDE.
Almeno Ille farà contento e potrà vincere il tour.

[Robyklebt]

CHIEDO UFFICIALMENTE LA CANCELLAZIONE DEL TEAM NESSUNDROMA DAL TOUR ANDE.

Nessundroma? Hihi.

Anyway, there basically seems to be one major disagreement:

3 go 156
1 drops back 164

Ile says: Fabrizi, the guy who dropped back rode all the way until he was dropped. Which would be 7 km.
Nessundorma says: He checked the rules immediately, then let him drop back. He says Fabrizi rode one km.

I was in the spectators chat, but didn't follow closely enough to actually see who was riding when... so no clue who is right. BUT... even if Fabrizi did ride those 7 km alone, that only makes max 10" of the gained time. It's still illegal, it still shouldn't happen, but exaggerations like "thanks to that he won 1 minute" don't really help. If Fabrizi hadn't ridden first, nessundorma would never have gone til the end. Stuff like that just isn't true and doesn't help....
The scandal here though is that nobody in the FC seems to care. Nobody asks, nobody comments, maybe they even haven't opened a discussion yet...Doesn't matter what they decide, but just ignoring it is.... maybe fire all of them?

Deutsch:

Hauptproblem hier:

Ile sagt: Bis er zurückgefallen ist, hat Fabrizi alleine Tempo gemacht. Also 157-163, wären 7 Km.
nessundorma sagt: Fabrizi 1 km. Er habe sofort die Regeln kontrolliert und ihn dann auch fallen gelassen.

Was stimmt weiss ich nicht, war zwar im Zuschauerchat, aber nicht konzentriert genug um zu sehen wer wann Tempo gemacht hat. ABER Uebertreibungen helfen hier keinem. Fabrizi 1 km wie Nessundorma sagt, oder 7 km wie Ile sagt macht 10" aus. nicht mehr. Ist immer noch verboten, aber Uebertreibungen wie "so eine Minute gewonnen" oder "Wäre Fabrizi vorher nicht gefahren wäre er nie durchgekommen!" stimmen so nicht und helfen auch nicht weiter.

Der Skandal hier ist aber dass es offenbar das Fairnesskomitee nicht im Geringsten interessiert. Ganz egal was sie dann entscheiden, das ganze zu ignorieren ist eine Sauerei.

Italiano:

Il problema sembra essere

Ile dice che FAbrizi ha fatto tempo per 7 chilometri
nessundorma dice per 1 chilometro

Non so chi abbia ragione.... pero anche se Fabrizi ha fatto 7 chilometri, la differenza e al massimo 10". Resta illegale, ma esagerazioni come la fa Ile non aiutano... Senza il tempo di Fabrizi nessundorma non sarebbe arrivato al traguardo... semplicemente non vero, 10" meno vantaggio al massimo.
Lo scandalo qui pero e che il comitato non fa niente. Non parlo della decisione, ma almeno dovrebbero parlarne. E non sembrano farlo.

Ah, per nessundorma:

dopo aver capito che solo in caso in cui altro corridore mi seguiva non era team attack, ho fatto ritornare immediatamente fabrizi in gruppo.

io ho attaccato sul 6%, avevo capito che su questa pendenza si potesse attaccare con più di 2 corridori. Mi è stato detto che avevo fatto un team-attack, sono riandato a leggermi il regolamento. purtroppo nessuno mi ha seguito, quindi sono subito rientrato in gruppo con uno dei corridori che aveva fatto l'attacco

Non sono sicuro che hai capito bene le regole ancora:

In questo caso anche se qualcuno ti seguiva era team attack. Regola numero uno. Anche se erano in 300 a seguirti, e sempre teamattack. Perche fino a 10 chilometri dalla fine puoi solo attaccare con 2 allo stesso chilometro (dallo stesso gruppo).
Non era team attack se uno dei 3 seguiva un altro!

Esempio:

+6
Simone Bertolin (nessundorma) attackiert
Filippo Mastorci (nessundorma) attackiert
Cristiano Fabrizi (nessundorma) attackiert
Narcisse Arséne de Pellevoisin (Petit Singe) segue
Stefano Benni (Team FL) non riesce a seguire

Team attack. regola numero 1. Massimo due attacchi. Anche se segue un altro, restano 3 attacchi.


+6
Simone Bertolin (nessundorma) attackiert
Filippo Mastorci (nessundorma) attackiert
Narcisse Arsène de Pellevoisin (Petit Singe) segue
Cristiano Fabrizi (nessundorma) segue
Stefano Benni (Team FL) gives up

Regola 1? Ok, due attaccano. Tutto legale.
Regola 3? Ok. +6, tutto bene. Se fosse +3, non ok.

Chiaro?

[nessundorma]

grazie per il chiarimento, ma il problema a questo punto lo risolvo io.
Sono qui per divertirmi non per creare problemi.
IL TOUR PER ME FINISCE OGGI, ANZI e' FINITO IERI.

nessundorma

[flockmastoR]

Hm Nessundorma now kills his team riding in climbers group because

nessundorma: for me stop today
nessundorma: no problem

hm but seems noone cares in the group as noone is riding in the back.

But for me its unfair to make the race hard or something when you know you quit the race after it...

[flockmastoR]

Oh, nessundorma already wrote:

NO need to fall back with the captain at all.
In the rules it just says: Fall back with one. No specification on which.
But generally it's understood and common sense that the guy falling back shouldn't have worked yet, so that you don't really get an advantage of the teamattack. That's not explicitly written in the rules, but is really common sense. And I guess if somebody let's fall a guy who didn't work, there won't be a problem at all in most cases, if he let fall a guy who did work, the committee will probably be less lenient.

So, you were right in not letting fall back your captain.
But the question is, did Fabrizi ride in those 8 or so km in front? If yes, alone or with the other guy?

Am i blind? Where does it say that you have to let fall 1 rider and where does it say that its not fined it that case? It was a clear teamattack, he seems to mix up the rules 1 and 3 a bit. Team attack -> Forbidden, all actions after that can just increase (decrease) the FINE

[Golden State Team]

It's unsustainable that except RobyKlebt and flockmastor NOBODY cares about that. This conflict is destroying the tour and it's atmosphere since then. You dont need a FC if nobody cares about the people who have problems...

[Pirkio]

Ok here we have a double problem..

-Sleeping fairplay jury (I made the post 2 days ago no one reply)
-Technic problem

First problem is always the same it looks good for all so I will not write about this.


Second problem.. WE NEED A STOP TEMPO BUTTON

Example.

Rider A make tempo
Rider B is the leader
Rider C is the one who will pull the leader

IF rider A make tempo rider b and rider c will not attack so -> Multy attack is the only way

Giving player a stop tempo button will avoid maybe 30% of multy attack, for sure and add more quality to game.
Es:
km 1 Rider A make tempo
Km 2 Rider A is in tempo but with the stop tempo button he will stop tempo at the refresh + Rider B and Rider C attack
km 3 Group lose 30 seconds no multy attack and no problem for nobody, if you let escape a leader is your fault not just a unfair mode of play.


Btw..Ille is talking too much but in my opinion with gk in group he should try to controll the race not let nessundorma control and go in escape.
And btw Fabrizi make only 1 km tempo (I suppose the reation time for go and read the rules) after that km nessun dorma stop tempo with Fabrizi and let him fall back.. I don't see 7 km of tempo.

So I propose to make an istant stop tempo button who will work like the attack button during the refresh from km x to km y (if this already exist please let me know where is and how to use)

[lesossies]

2 members of the fairplay comitee have analyzed the situation and voted.

[deuseburger]

moin miteinander...

So I propose to make an istant stop tempo button

the last thing THIS fc needs is a possibility to intervene directly in a race... though i am not completely against it, for a button like this it is even more crucial to have an upright fc with integer people in it and way too many have proven more than once that they arent... (not meant to offend all of the fc members...)

cheers deuse...

[Pirkio]

I think I'm not explain myself.. Stop tempo button should be for team manager not for jury.

Btw, jury voted and case is close