New transfer system for youth riders

[Buhmann]

From 1. April the transfer system for the youth riders will change to an auction system.

If there is a transfer marcet refresh, the new riders will cost much more than now at the beginning. Current cost with factor 10 or something like this.

The cost for the riders will be reduced every hour (or better minute?). But you don´t have to be online when the rider reached the price you would pay for him. You can bid for a rider any time. If no other team have a better bid, you will get the rider when he reached the price you was willing to pay (if you have at this time the money!)

Other things don´t change. If you get the youth rider, he can ride for your team not until the next saison.

Sorry for my bad english, maybe some other user can explane it better.

[bergwerk cycling]

perfect german english buh i understand it very good

But one question ... the price will fall to __ procent and what happened than ... the rider will stay or go back to 100% procent or ....???

[Luna]

@Buh: Thank you for this improvement. Please also take note of this thread about youth rider limiting -> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1502

[Buhmann]

Good question. For such detaisl we still have a few days to discuss.

My suggestion: The price can not be lower than 100% of the marcet value.

Other question: When shall the youth transfer marcet refresh? The system like now? Then of course, riders for which some teams have bid, must not be delete from the transfer marcet

[Robyklebt]

Ok, if I read it correctly, already a few things I don't like.

No mention of D1-4. It has to be D1-4, otherwise the system can only fail.
Every market refresh: Make it every day a fix number of riders.

More to come probably.

[Luna]

Good question. For such detaisl we still have a few days to discuss.

My suggestion: The price can not be lower than 100% of the marcet value.

Other question: When shall the youth transfer marcet refresh? The system like now? Then of course, riders for which some teams have bid, must not be delete from the transfer marcet

I suggest to always have a fixed number of youth riders auctions. As soon as one auction is finished (because rider is either sold or the 100% is reached without beeing sold) the rider disappears from the market and a new auction with a new rider is generated.

Oh, Roby was faster.

[Buhmann]

I thought Div 5 woulb be okay, too...

No youth riders for Div 5 from next saison? Hmm...

[Robyklebt]

Do I really have to explain why it can't work if you include D5?

1)
D1-4=180 teams. You can find a balance for the needed number of riders per refresh.
D1-5=Open number. Growing probably, but sometimes, more, sometimes less, always fluctuating. Impossible to find a good balance long term. Need to readjust every week/months. Otherwise one week there's not enough riders, prices way too high, on week, you readjust, overadjusted, too many riders, everybody goes for 100%

2) Protection of everybody basically.
the new teams, don't know the prices, don't know the system, risks overpaying.
Old teams, have to fight against multis, resets of D5 teams, cash of D5 teams from D6b, easier cash generation by D5 teams (selling riders, no 50 day rule there, right) etc.

That doesn't mean no youth riders for D5 automatically.

But have to lose a race now, can't concentrate on this.

[Pirkio]

why can't we have the youth team? and forget forever the youth market? is hard to do but is the better solution... in other game like hattrick players are only created from real players no one create from random

[Radunion]

I sugest that div 5 Teams are not allowed to make high bids. Limit the bid to 120 % of the rider value (can be changed when we have more information of the market price). This should be seen as a protection for the teams.

And please keep the riders on the transfer market after they reached 100 % (at least for one day). This will make it much easier to buy weaker riders.

[Luna]

And please keep the riders on the transfer market after they reached 100 % (at least for one day). This will make it much easier to buy weaker riders.

Why? You're allowed to place a bid of 100% at the beginning of the auction. That's very easy. If noone bids more then the rider is yours at the end.

[Radunion]

If I want to buy a helper, it will not pay more than 100 %. I want to see what I can get. Why should I be forced to speculate which rider I may get, if nobody else is interested?

[Zentaron]

Because it is an auction.

[Radunion]

If it were an auction I would be able to buy a rider below its "official value". You cannot compare the system with real life. It is not realistic that the rider quits cycling when not sold. Give him a chance to get a team.

[allrad]

And how long will an auction be?

[Pirkio]

Questions:

Now when market of U20 refresh we lose all the racers and spawn new. With new sistem there is the risk of have a lot of bad racers in the U20 market in a day like 30 april?

If i make a wrong bet ( 1.000.000 when i would put 2.000.000 ) can i cancel and make a new one?

The sistem looks nice. But will you implement a limit for every team of x youth for every month like the Roby post?

Can we see the best offer or at last the number of total offer for the racer?


Thanks

[Robyklebt]

Ok a bit more:

1) Buh, did you read the old threads? Others, mostly ZL, wrote nice summaries of what should be how, some open questions but generally seemed better thought out than what I read here

2) D1-4 otherwise it doesn't work. You need to be able to find the right number of riders on the market so that it works. So that you still have some control over the prices. An automatic program that calculates the "correct" number with activity etc. want work, since the overpaying, multiying, selling etc. will still be a problem. D1-4. A fixed number of teams. If you expect a big increase in users in the next months with the new language versions (I hope it happens) and want to increase the divisions, ok.. but it has to be for the divisions with a fixed number of teams. (Even if maybe in the future you change that fixed number)

D5 without youth riders? Not necessary. But could be possible.If with: Reopen it to 6b too. Add the thing discussed in the thread that Luna linked to for 5 and 6b too.
Then
a) leave the 5 and 6b youth market as it is. Speed. Yes, so they get cheaper superriders, a 56-74-79 will cost more in D1-4 than in D5. you can change other things
a1) Cut the "cheapened" riders in D5+6b. They never made any sense there, in case you remember the reason for the introduction, that's still true.
a2) Make the D1-4 auction youth riders go down to 95%. Again, you have to get the amount of riders per day/refresh right, you probably won't get it right in the first try, will need some tweaking and adjusting in the first weeks. The leader, strong riders won't go for 95%. The supercheap helpers neither, It's riders that are a bit overpriced now, skills that nobody cares about that will go cheaper. The 48-53-50-56-82 with 60 reg. The other reg monsters without other topskills, 46-72 with 60 reg, hopelessly overpriced now.
or
b) weaken the youth riders for D5-6b. No 73-56, only 72-56-79-54 (not 57) etc. No 56-74, only 55-73. Only 81 sprint, only whatever the other topvalues are.

None of this solution is a huge problem, all the same for D5, so they save money, ok, not really a problem for D1-4 teams. Only in their imagination. the a solution, again, the cheapened riders an unwarranted bonus, down to 95 makes sense regardless of other things. cut the topskills in D5, it's 1 point what I propose, that's only a problem in the imagination of D5 people. Not a real one.

c) No youth riders. Explanation: No young riders signs a contract with a low level pro team far in advance if he still can hope to get a contract with a "good team". Only if nothing else opens, i.e. when they are 21 (which need to be discussed too)

d) Leftovers from the auctions sign with D5 and D6b, the new youth market for them is what isn't bought in D1-4. Same explanation as above.
d1) If D1-D4 would go to 95%, we could put the leftovers on the D5 market at 100%, buyable at 100%, so if I wanted to pay 95%, maybe I risk losing him even if no other D1-4 guy wantd him, D5 sees him, buys him.
d2) Only get to D5 when they are at 95%, but then stay there.

Here too, possible, not a big problem, I can live with all 4 solutions. Even though D is a bit pointless maybe. But maybe not, some 73-50-55 comes down, bought, trains to 90-56-55, not a perfect rider, but a good one, the less perfect riders in the game the better anyway.

Here too, possible as well, a mix of a-d somehow ok too maybe. Nothing of these things would destroy the game

Having D1-5 auctions on the other hand is a problem. Or only one I imagine, but I take the risk of sounding full of myself. I'm usually not wrong when it comes to these things. So it is a problem.

Much more to come I fear.

[Zauberlehrling]

Some remarks:

1. Only Div 1-4.

2. Start the auctions at least Daily, I would prefer even to start a fix number of auctions every 4-6 hours.

3. Countdown: Every minute, like this:
First 12 hours: The rider just appears, you can place already bids if you want to
then:
Day 1: The Bid goes down from 1000% to 200%. That's just to give everybody time to place a bid, gain some money, sell a rider, just organize a bit of money if needed. I don't think that a rider goes over 200%... but time will tell.
Day 2: It's getting interesting: 200% to 150%
Day 3: 150%-100% of market value
Day 4: 100%-90%.
Afterwards: The rider is gone.

Day 4 is just for balance: The rare and popular riders (56-74-7x, 50-59-82 sprinters) will most probably get more expensive, so the not so popular riders (zB 48-73-64) should get a bit cheaper just to keep the price of an average team the same.

4. You can place as many bids as you want... as long as you can afford it.

5. You can only bid what you have: You have to be able to pay the bid, that means with 2 Mio cash you can't bid for a 3-Mio-Guy.

6. If you get a rider, all the other bids you can't afford any longer are erased.

7. Important: The bids are SECRET!!! Nobody knows if there is a bid on a rider, how high the bids are and so on.

8. After the rider is sold, the highest bid (the Winner) is mentioned somewhere with his bid, the other bids stay hidden.

Edith: 9. Cut the 21y old on the regular Market at least until the first, better until the second Training. Otherwise you have the "Hardcore-speed-thing" for the 21y-old riders until the 5th of a month for the popular riders.

[Luna]

6b After every change to the back account (rider purchase, rider salaray after a race/stage, changing team name, ...) bids that exceed your balance are removed automatically

[sgumgub]

Besides Nr. 9 I totally agree with ZL here...


Dont see the point of Nr.9 tho...21 years have always been the most valuable riders, thats why the youth market was introduced, just to keep the chances higher to get an 21, even tho you have to wait.

Now with the upcoming system everyone has the chance to get that "perfect rider" that appears every once in a while...

so why srew the good old regular 21s? There has to be at least some nostalgic thinking around here, no?^^

[Zauberlehrling]

The point is: Some riders will almost for sure get more expensive, for example the 56-74-79... now you can get one for about 1.8 Mio (Bangerter...), with auctions I would say he will cost at least 2 Mio.
But if there is still a possibility to buy a 56-74-79 besides the auctions for the regular price without any disadvantage that's not good for the system. The run for the 21y-old rider will be like hell until the first training. The youth market was introduced to avoid this run... now he would come back even worse (more teams).

[RohrheimRadler]

Just some thoughts:

It already is pretty tough for new teams to make money, expand their team, and build a good team, it's pretty tough to make 1.500.000 a month in race winnings, and thats whats required to only buy a helper. Buying a leader easily costs 2.500.000 already, now we introduce an autcion system, which makes this prices even go up more?

It's pretty tough to live with a 9 rider team, so the idea must not be to upgrade the quality, but to upgrade the number of riders. A quality 9 rider team can be pretty expensive, so people need alternatives, cheap helpers, they can fill their team with, to go into certain riders with a cheap team, trying to maximize profit.

With people being perhaps asked to spent even more than 4.000.000 for a single leader to get a quality rider, it may on the other hand force them to spent even less on helpers, so the result may be teams, that may have great leaders and not good helpers, resulting in chaotic races, asccustions and chaos.

So please give us a chance to still build valuable teams, so I think limit the auctions to D1-D4, still give us good 21yos to buy during the firs days, and not make it even difficulter to build good teams, which are absulutly neccesary for good races. If people overspent on a leader, they cannot build good teams. So try to limit the total numer of 21 yos, that can be bought by a single team, like asked for by robyklebt in a different posting, and please, don't let people harshly overspent, I think it would be sick, if someone spent 8.000.000 on a leader, and then only can afford 8 1.000.000 riders to support him.

And, keep the ones no one bid on on the market, I think we should still be able to buy the leftovers at the regular price until we see, how many 21yos are really bought, atm, I would fear to spent more than the market price, as already on market price I cannot afford more then one 21yo per season to build my team.

[Radunion]

Is there anything like a price target. Does the number of available riders depend on the market price?

If the prices are to high we have to discuss about the balance between teams with a different number of races per month. Do I have to earn lots of money each month to be able to get the best riders?

[Zauberlehrling]

I don't hope it... I mentioned it already: For me it would be perfect, that the price for an average team would remain as it is now.

For my team:
- Chatelain: About the same, perhaps +100k, not more. He was some days on the market before I bought him.
- Maurer: Like Chatelain
- Bangerter: Much more expensive, guess about +400k (he was a lazy 56-74-79)
- Curdin Wiederkehr: A bit more expensive +200k
- Läderach: Same, a 56-74 without sprint and downhill isn't that attractive
- Dino Wiederkehr: Same price, nothing rare, perhaps even a bit cheaper
- Sgair: Perhaps very little more expensive, 50k
- Steiner: Special case, bought him between first and second training with 21y... like that not more expensive, would be like a 54-73.
- Sadri, Bänziger, Bakhtavar, Tantardini, Tazman, Zwahlen, Beyeler, Salvisberg: All going for 90%, they are nothing special and can be found easily... but let's say for 92%: Makes all in all -600k (about -100k for everyone).

Total: about +100k for my team, but that's only a guess.

[Robyklebt]

I'm against down to 90%.
95%.