Unrealistic arrangement, lack of separation of private and RSF of 5 Italian teams

[scorpsche]

Since FPC doesn't start an investigation on it's own and also not after several people complained in different channels already, I'm going the requested way now.

There are lots of collusions going on in the evening races as already stated in Pokemons post which is genius and deserved an award in my opinion:
viewtopic.php?f=35&p=97726#p97726

Still no action by FPC, Luques and Leso since then.

I myself observed the collusions in the evening stages:
Giro 23h: involved teams Coroncina, Skype Italia
Sloveniji 24h: involved teams Auximilium Torino, VeloPiemonte
Savoie Mont Blanc 23h: involved teams Coroncina, Ciclistica Astense (Auximilium Torino)

The last stage is still active, so FPC can see it live if there is an interest to fight unfairness in the game.

So how is it done?
In all listed races above the pattern was equal as follows: a strong/favo team was supported by another teams with unrealistic tempo. Often you can see tempo in the same kilometers after a short sieb. This leads to have available as favo team the double amount of riders.
Since there was never chat communication the only logical explanation for this is outside game communication/alignment - especially for tempo by not-favo teams.
In all cases were situations where the helping team clearly didn't benefit from the tempo.
Some examples:
- Sloveniji 24h stage 4: tempo from VeloPiemonte without having a chance to overtake riders in gc in front. Clearly just a help for Auximilium Torino. This was already reported by Pokemon
- Savoie Mont Blanc 23h: all ongoing stages Ciclistica Astense is supporting Coroncina with tempo and doesn't do tempo when Coroncina is front. Rfm wrote this in chat as well like me in forum & chat
- Giro 23h: there were a couple of stages where Skype Italia did a lot of tempo together with Coroncina without taking/having a chance in gc for himself. This was already pointed out by Idefix (forum, chat) and several teams in race chat

Plus you just have to watch fairplay comments to the listed teams above. There are a lots of entries for the same topic.

Keep in mind these are only 3 stages race where I attended within 2 months so it is probably just the top of the iceberg.
So the question is what else has to happen until FPC is getting active and block unfair riding for future races?
As I stated in my other post FPC is a farce since real unfair riding and collusion are not pursuit but rather posts/pm in a forum.

[High Flyer]

You are aware you're asking FPC to investigate something that is 200% objective and will alomst 100% not go through.#]

Unless you have actual proof of outside agreements aka messages or text or admissions of guilt, this is just a waste of time.

[team fl]

No it isnt. He finally did what he should have done fromnthe beginning. Open this thread.

[High Flyer]

I get that, but what is he actually asking for. Because you there's never been a punishment for just riding unrealistically.

[scorpsche]

I get that, but what is he actually asking for. Because you there's never been a punishment for just riding unrealistically.

It's not about riding unrealistic but moreover about an unrealistic arrangement and lack of separation of private and RSF which are both violations against Fairplay rules.

[High Flyer]

I get that, but what is he actually asking for. Because you there's never been a punishment for just riding unrealistically.

It's not about riding unrealistic but moreover about an unrealistic arrangement and lack of separation of private and RSF which are both violations against Fairplay rules.

But you have no proof. In a previous thread Rapid said:

But I guess it's all the FPC can do within their powers... Unless they want to make a statement against unrealistic arrangements that seem to have been made via other channels and decide to punish the suspects without any proof. But then we turn into a police state where the FPC gets the power to punish anyone without any evidence. And I guess that is not an ideal situation as well.

You need proof or this will end up getting closed or buried when all the hype dies down.

[scorpsche]

Sorry but if you don't look into this matter...please remove all fairplay rules since it is a farce.
You protect then a certain number of teams against a lots of other team who spoke up already.

My proof so far is the same method of certain teams over and over again.
It is not a coincidence when is no communication in chat but over and over again collaboration over same km's in unrealistic combination of teams favo/non-favo. And these are always the same teams.
So what is your explanation of this common tempo of always 2 Italian teams if not communication outside of RSF which is a collusion even by definition of Luques?

Just shortly digging into forum I see that there were already threads opened including of the teams I named but of course...never a penalty was decided:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=5368&p=96707&hilit ... tic#p96707

[High Flyer]

Sorry but if you don't look into this matter...please remove all fairplay rules since it is a farce.
You protect then a certain number of teams against a lots of other team who spoke up already.

Not true, there are things like proven multi's, proven attacks, proven bug using etc etc.
Protecting teams is objective, so no real reply to that.

My proof so far is the same method of certain teams over and over again.
It is not a coincidence when is no communication in chat but over and over again collaboration over same km's in unrealistic combination of teams favo/non-favo. And these are always the same teams.

Once again, that isn't enough to give a punishment. What you are doing is complaining about how teams ride, nothing to do with a punishment because you have no actual proof. In the case, proof isn't "how many times has this happened", its "where is the evidence that they are making arrangements out of the game.

So what is your explanation of this common tempo of always 2 Italian teams if not communication outside of RSF which is a collusion even by definition of Luques?

Coincedence?
Misunderstanding?
Tactics?
Over or underestimating chance?
This is my point, you can't pinpoint an exact reason for this happening, I could easily show you a race where 2 teams made in the same month or with similar team build or similar names or similar rider nationality etc etc and say there is a collusion based on that. You need actual proof.

Just shortly digging into forum I see that there were already threads opened including of the teams I named but of course...never a penalty was decided:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=5368&p=96707&hilit ... tic#p96707

Sweet easy reply there.

In the past 6 month, there has been 2 other thread about this. And it ended with nothing. I thing that you should get prepared for the same conclusion.


I'll give you a task, go through every single Fairplay thread.
Check the evidences and the penaltys.

Nearly everyone that gave a punishment came with an evidence (in game chat, out game chat, ip checking, line for line checking vs rules aka team attacks etc). Until you have one of these types of evidence, then this ends up being nothing than a rant that gets abandoned after a month or to.

[scorpsche]

Once more the connection Coroncina, Ciclistica Astense got active.
In the beginning of the stage they shared tempo.
But in the last downhill Ciclistica made tempo with his only rider killing all possible stage chances but helping Coro vs. Rfm behind.
Ah and of course Ciclistica didn't do tempo vs. Coro when Coro siebed himself.

Sure always everything is just "coincidence" and nothing is connected to nothing...
In Italian it's said: "a pensar male si fa peccato ma spesso ci si azzecca"
However I will continue to report "coincidences" here.

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[team fl]

Maybe a statement by the accused teams would help?

[luques]

Maybe a statement by the accused teams would help?

Surely yes, but actually I saw the race and I have a bit a different view on it.

Astense siebed in the middle of the race and worked against Coro (and guciuzuza) helpers comeback.

On the hill when Coro autosiebed (he was waiting his 80-70) there was no sense for helping the front group, first because Guciuzuza, 3rd in gc and his main contender wasn't helping, second because Coro would easily come back as he did on the flat part after the mountain with his 80-70.

Actually doing tempo on the hill was more tempo against Coro as the one who could have maximum advantage from that (guciu) wasn't riding and was pulled by the others. Considering also that it was the last stage and other contenders had more than 1' on gc.

Tempo at the end was the only strange thing of that race from Astense, even if at that point the only way Astense could get the podium was with boni secs at the end.

At the end, actually he had the chance to get the boni, but the train of Coro took guciuzuza to safe the third place.

P.S. On Saturday, instead, guciuzuza did the usual job for the favo of the race

[scorpsche]

Nice, Luques defending the Italians so they don't have to do it themself

But to the matter: I agree that you can have different point of views if there are single races, single situations.
For me this is a bigger puzzle and a lots of pieces are found already.
You can argument forth and forth for certain race decisions but in the end for me the pattern is clear: 2 Italian teams co-working to control the field.
So happened here 1st and 2nd stage and as my interpretation also the last stage.
I am 100% convinced there was an outside deal between Coro and Ciclistica for Savoie and the same for the other named teams and stage races:
- Let's control together with a similar team setup against other favo teams. Think about: how much coincidence it can be the 2 Italian teams always come with a very similar team and co-working very often at same km's?
- Stronger and more exp. team (Coro, Auxilium, Coro) takes gc plus stage wins if possible
- Weaker and exp. team takes 2nd best possible gc and jerseys if possible
- Never work against each other

Take into account also other pieces like Auxilium sitted Ciclistica who co-worked with VP the stage race before.
Look into fairplay comments where a lots of teams gave these 5 teams -2 with comments regards to co-working.

I will continue to list all strange collaborations here.
So either these teams will hide it good enough or we will have fair races.

[luques]

I have no interest in defending italian teams, actually Coro wrote himself in the main chat.

I have simply the same stance I had when Coro opened similar topics (yes Coro, how the world changes), or similar things.

I just thought that your picture of the race (just showing 2kms in a 2 hour long race), it's partial and can lead to misunderstandings.
Moreover in 1 of the screenshot Astense isn't even entering in tempo.

This at least watching yesterday stage, after that, don't know what happened in stage 1-2, wasn't there, can just believe what I read.

That italians, french, germans speak on skype and facebook is not something new and actually I am not against it, if the virtual world can build some friendships, why not?
Clearly if this is used to arrange tactics is not ok, but at least yesterday it didn't give me this impression.

[scorpsche]

So we are not completely on a different level of understanding.
I agree with you that yesterday's race itself is not an evidence but it fits well in the bigger picture (puzzle).
Especially as the accused teams seemed to be careful now.

I will continue to contribute puzzle pieces with the consequence either these teams (and others) are punished and/or stop their behavior.
So as I was forced to open the thread in this I just find appropriate that accused team(s) keep the same format and reply themself.

I believe the majority can also agree that collusion in the following way is against fairplay rules and fairness:
- unrealistic arrangements are not allowed
- every manager must do the best for his team . Separation of private and RSF is required.

And last but not least keep in mind that the accusations came from a lots of independent sources - therefore no one should come with: ah it's just your personal fight.
No this is a fight for fairness in the game and equal chances for everyone!

[scorpsche]

Let's move on the topic.
As promised in chat please find here something everyone can find using the search in fairplay comments.
It is visible that is not only one trying to make something up.

There is a longer list of teams already reporting the behavior of at least 3 of 5 teams named in this thread:
RV Berlin Sued, los chicos, free team, Novi Team, Team Hunsrueck (not for collusion but unfair behavior trying to use bugs), guilherme, superdragoes, Ambition.

Plus there are teams who stay silent about it, plus Poke, Ide, Rfm and myself.

So who want to say we are all wrong?

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[scorpsche]

Short update, digged a bit deeper.
Not that someone say "oh but what about the 2 others teams?"

Here you go...

What free meant (please correct me if I'm wrong) that VP belongs to the connection as well.

And regarding Ciclistica...well it seems I didn't find because the team was renamed.
Correct me if I'm wrong but why I found fairplay comments in Ciclistica page with name of "Beccolungo"?

Still denying? Still closing eyes? Still doing nothing about it?

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[luques]

Actually I think that Velo was already punished for it. Don't go too back in time.

[scorpsche]

Interesting.

So we are talking here about repeat offenders?

And moreover the question is:
Why is still not even an investigation opened about the recent "events"? Especially considering the history of these teams.
I was explicitly naming 3 tours and 5 teams.
And as I showed all have been accused (and punished?) in the past.

[luques]

Interesting.

So we are talking here about repeat offenders?

And moreover the question is:
Why is still not even an investigation opened about the recent "events"? Especially considering the history of these teams.
I was explicitly naming 3 tours and 5 teams.
And as I showed all have been accused (and punished?) in the past.

Just a bit of history:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=5177
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=5084
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=5071
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=5067

As you see also other people opened a post.
The accused teams as well opened a phantomatic wall of strange noobs post to accuse some other players.

That just to give a bit of context also to FPK.

[scorpsche]

Thank you for the links which fit well in the picture.

So we can add also the team DORIA to the investigation?

[luques]

Ah, and just to give even more context, in that time italians were against free team accusing him of having teams that controlled the race and allying together in order to beat this alliance (yes like the French one).

In the meanwhile, superdragoes was being called supersucker and opened a post for it, also insulted Coro.

So basically everybody was riding against free, against coro and against super, if one of the three was the favo of the race you could see the other doing all they could to make him lose.

Somehow I think also Ide was involved, but I think he can explain himself what happened at that time, basically was the far west, now in comparison it's the paradise

P.S. read just now, I think Doria is still under investigation, FPK needs some time to deliver penalties

[scorpsche]

FPK needs some time to deliver penalties

Oh well I saw stuff opened 2016/17 ...is this serious?
If that is the speed of FPC...sorry but do we need FPC in the current format?

Oh and on the other hand FPC seems quiet fast in case of JoyRide and AGF...

[Robyklebt]

Oh and on the other hand FPC seems quiet fast in case of JoyRide and AGF...

Bolded by me.

Seriously, do we want this level of blatant and brazen lying to be acceptable? Give the guy fine for all his lying and distorting of reality. No, too lazy to open a thread, so don't fine him...

[scorpsche]

Ok let me drop one other piece for the puzzle (I can see the picture already clear, but looks others still pretend to be blind).

As mentioned already one of the way this connection works is outside chat communication.
You barely find communication in race chat (where it belongs) but a lots of combined actions.

It is confirmed that Aux himself called a long time ago to connect Italian teams via Skype:
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=1431&p=96173#p96173

It is also confirmed that there is a Skype group:
viewtopic.php?f=45&t=5154&p=96722&hilit=skype#p96722

Also confirmed that Luques and Aux are connected in Skype:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5316&p=95137&hilit=skype#p95137

Maybe the name "Skype Italia" comes from that connection - who knows?

[auxilium torino]