Campeonato de los Andes 2021

[Robyklebt]

Situation:

-Tukh designing another year seemed more or less the consensus after the 2020 edition.
-Tukh not online a lot lately. Hasn't been in the forum for over a month. Not sure about races.
-Andes always a specialists tour with rather lower participation than normal tours.
-Number of players down due to the flash problem and the slow development of the flashless version

So my proposal for 2021 is: Skip the Andes! Bring them back stronger in 22!

The only time that could be expected to have a decent field really is the evening. 21/22. The afternoon, we wouldn't even need to try, last year with more players around we got 2 for the Andes. Morning and early evening more, but they lost players too, so how many would be left for the Andes? Evening would be possible to have decent field, pretty confident about that. But 16 days, with our low numbers, highly specialized tour... generally I don't think it makes much sense to ride it this year.

Of course if enough players insist on wanting the Andes in 2021 too, then ok, we can have them, but probably with less editions. Possibly even only one. But regardless of how the decision will be, I think we better start talking about it. As I said, the way it looks right now, I think we're better of skipping it this year.

If we want to ride the Andes in 21 too, with fewer editions, maybe even only 1, then the question of course is as well if Tukh (or a replacement if he doesn't show up or isn't around) is motivated enough to design something for this small number of players.

If we decide to skip it this year, we'd have more small tours instead in November, more general tours, where there's something for everybody, hoping to keep our low numbers in the offseason, and not going even lower.

Opinions?

[Gipfelstuermer]

Skip the Andes!

Whaaaat??? Skip the Andes??? How do you imagine "skipping" it? Time Travel?

Ok, seriously, really not convinced that you make the off-season better by deleting a highlight.


So the problems with Andes:

1.) Design
No problem at all!

1.) Tukh, if you read this, you can do it again.
2.) If Tukh don't want it, Gala is waiting since last year to be allowed to do it. And he is still very active here.
3.) If Tukh and Gala don't want it, I am happy to go back to the drawing board and design my 4th Andes!

But you are right, we should decide that soon! Designing Andes takes time.

2.) Specialized tour during times of low partcipation

So we will never ride a specialized tour again? Damn... no Andes, no Pave, no nothing? Mmmh, I guess what you mean is specialized tour for 16 days... OK! I get that argument! So if you are worried about the length, yes, we can shorten it. With 14-days could go down to occupy only 2 weekends. With 12-days could go down to occupy only 1 weekend. So 12-days including only 1 weekend could be an option? So running from a Monday to a Friday? I think that could keep the spirit of the Andes, still.

3.) Number of editions

I hope with a 12-day tour, you can imagine to keep 3-4 editions.

But if we think totally unrealistic, then of course we could do only 1 edition 12-days or even further decrease length to 5-7 days but 3-4 editions. But then it would really be like any other stage race... so I think I favor 3-4 editions with 12-days, and if you dont believe in it, make it 1 edition with 12 days.

4.) Alternatives

If we decide to skip it this year, we'd have more small tours instead in November, more general tours, where there's something for everybody, hoping to keep our low numbers in the offseason, and not going even lower.

Ok, no time travel, but you have some idea. More smaller tours, ok ok... I could even live with it probably... BUT, let's be more positive! My dream is to have a nice off-season! People should be interested to ride off-season! Some nice, cool, new races are needed!

5.) NEW HIGHLIGHTS

I want to keep Andes! That is for sure! But we can ADD some interesting NEW HIGHLIGHTS. Just some ideas:

Idea 1: Ride the UCI cyclocross World Cups. They are now popular thanks to famous riders like Van Aert, Van der Poel and Pidcock. It could also be interesting as these are very short races, so participation might be higher if managers can quickly make money in off-season.
Idea 2: Ride some gravel events. This is another part of cycling, getting hugely popular at the moment. Maybe we can ride some of the gravel races like 'Unbound Gravel' in RSF off-season.
Idea 3: Historical Races. Maybe we can ride some of the historical races. This is more for the Nostalgia, but could be fun to add to the calendar. Things like Paris-Brest-Paris or the routes of historical Grand Tours, for instance the 1903 Tour de France which had only 6 stages.

I'm sure, others will have other ideas as well.

The traditionalist in you will reject these ideas quickly, but we need to turn this into something positive! Rather than deleting highlights, let's add some highlights to the calendar! So that people look forward to the races and join!

For this point, instead of discussing it here, we can discuss it in a separate thread or in the usual off season thread. But before doing so would like to know if you are open to such crazy, new ideas at all. Makes only sense if you as the calendar organizer would like to add things. We can also make a survey or "reserve" specific time slots in the off-season calendar for new types of races. As much as I like Andes/DecTour/JanTour and the off-season classics... might be time to do something new? somehow try to make off-season as attractive as posssible to keep players?

[flockmastoR]

Well from a players view, I really would like to keep Andes in the off-season, in fact it is the one special highlight of the off season. If we have a designer who is willing to draw an Andes tour, I will always vote for riding it.

[Hansa]

Would like to ride andes. Not sure if the earlie evening gets enough teams but i will ask at the tdf group at 19h what their opinion is.

Gips idea to shorten it doesnt sound that bad 12 day andes with only going over 1 weekend sound ok for me but still i dont know how many teams would like to ride.

But even if we only get one edition i would even go to a 21h edition and ride there even if thats not my prefered time.

[waer]

would like to ride the ande and have some news experience .the preferred hour is 18/19 but possible till 21

[Robyklebt]

Don't just think with the heart but also with the brain!

The numbers! The numbers. Look at the parallel races now compared to a year ago too, the TdF is not that badly visited of course, pretty good even, but the parallel races are dead, deadish. 10-15 teams overall. That means we have a pool of roughly 50 teams right now. Nobody new will join, we have to hope for returnees. Or the new version being fully playable by then, my favorite solution btw.

For the moment I play the role of the pessimist and assume it won't be:

And that means that for the Andes instead of the 80 or 90 or 100 players we had a year ago, we will have 50. Minus the ones that are at the Tour for sprint or classics. Minus the ones that can't ride long stage races. We look at a pool of 20-25 players for the Andes. And no, more of this "let's put more sprints in the Andes" silliness is not the answer. Andes are Andes, it's mountain stages. Löffel can stay home.

Shorter Andes, well it's not the same. This 16 days to me seems quite nice. 14 would be ok too. Down to 12....blah, ok, why not, down more, 7 days, that's not the Andes anymore, I would protest something like that being ridden under the Campeonato de los Andes moniker, would cheapen the great Donkey domination of the Andes, some 7 day winner in the same list as legends as Groselj? Mini Andes then! More seriously, Andes shortened is not the Andes, 12 days still ok, true, less certainly not.

But the problem really is the numbers, not only the length. Because the Andes affects also the parallel program. 4x 16 days Andes, we basically can't offer any small tour parallel. Or we can, but then we have Andes for 20 players, parallel tours for 20 and one day races for 10. And at some point we have to take the fun for people riding one day races into consideration too. Or the ones that want to ride a Tour that isn't for climbers. By having the Andes we sort of sacrifice those tours, and if not the fun for the 1 day racers. The same for 12 days, just not for as long... So the thinking into proposing having the Andes organization going bankrupt for a year really is to have better participation for small tours and 1 day races in that period. Which in itself btw would be a highlight Gipfel is looking for! Constant mediocre participation for small tours and 1 day races. Dec tour of course has a similar problem, but there it being a more general tour, we only "exclude" teams that can't find the time from the fun. With the Andes it's really all non-climber teams. So for the moment I'm not proposing cutting the Dec tour yet...

I'm confident the evening can bring together a decent group, yes.
Early evening less sure, but seeing how the participation for Giro and Tour was, the number of climbers, yes, could work. Checked, 6 teams with a climber there. So 6 teams for whom it would make sense to ride, maybe some have a climber at home, don't know)
Morning much less sure. But ok, even there 6 teams have a climber or something close enough to a climber to consider starting.
Afternoon is a hopeless case, 4 climbers at the tour, yeah.... Even if they all start buying climbers now, Ardila will dominate them then....Or Trakhtenbrot, but no Ardila with his team. Unless it's silly Andes...

So we're looking at 1-3 Andes really.

But yes, if we get a high enough (open to interpretation of course) number of people promising to ride the Andes (but please no Rasmussen and Dunkerque actions...) at a certain time, we certainly still can ride them, even at 16 days. Just don't forget the effect it has on the rest either.

[Gipfelstuermer]

So we're looking at 1-3 Andes really.

But yes, if we get a high enough (open to interpretation of course) number of people promising to ride the Andes (but please no Rasmussen and Dunkerque actions...) at a certain time, we certainly still can ride them, even at 16 days. Just don't forget the effect it has on the rest either.

Ok, nice 1-3 Andes certainly better than no Andes! If we choose 20/21 for the evening, that will pull some early and some late evening people. Then morning/afternoon we have to see how participation develops and if people from morning/afternoon tell us that they want to ride it.

And seems we agree that 12 days is fine. Can you guarantee min. 1 edition then? That might help motivate Tukh or Gala or if not them, somebody else or it will be me.

Regarding effect on the rest, with 130 days off-season (from end of Guanxi on 19 October to Omloop on 26 Februar), I think having 12-days Andes, 10-14 days December Tour & 10-12 days January Tour should be OK. That is only 30-40 days of "longer" tours parallel to one day races and leaves some 90-100 days of "shorter" tours parallel to one day races or even only one day races.

[Robyklebt]

I can't guarantee anything, I'm not the ultimate decider of anything. Neither am I Pokemon who abused this position to change the Winter calendar ignoring all other opinions without being able to give an explanation. So no, I can't guarantee anything in any way.

[flockmastoR]

In fact we already have these problems right now, I in fact just ride the GTs because there is no alternative to them (1-3 teams one day races are not). Usually I would ride Austria tour instead of TDF (ok this doesn't take place but also with Giro - Dauphine).

I don't really see the problem of riding a super specialist tour like Campeonato and no parallel stage race at that time. This would probably also increase the numbers of participants in one-day races (because there is no threat that everybody is riding the stage race and nobody left for one-day races). To not block this too much we can decrease the numbers of stages, I guess it is also reasonable to design a real Campeonato for 12 days.

If the numbers of paricipants are too low, I would also prefer just one edition to not riding at all.

[Tukhtahuaev]

Would be a shame to have no Andes, but I can't guarantee that I'll manage to find the time to design it.
If Gala wants to try, I would be happy to let him design this year.

[Pokemon Club]

Well and why not 2 Campeonato de los Andes of 1 week instead of 1 tour of 2 weeks for this year? A bit like the Tour of China I & II.

[Robyklebt]

Any news here? And since it seems we're looking for people. The Donkey will start if a) there is an edition between 13-15h. b) there's at least 6 teams there.

[Gipfelstuermer]

Gala and Tukh both mentioned, they'd like to design it but were unsure if they find the time.

If until 31 August (?) they are still unsure, I can do it. We just shouldn't wait too long to decide. I can design it within 2 months (Sep&Oct). That is realistic. But if we decide later only, there might not be enough time left for a good design.

[Robyklebt]

I can do the best design, which without false modesty would be around 40 times better than the stuff you're all going to produce, in less than a week. But I refuse to design for the 9 people who will want to ride it

So no need for 2 months really, think first, start designing later and even less perfect designers should be able to do it in 1 month

[flockmastoR]

Jäger-LeCultre: also falls jemand fragt, ich würde gerne die anden fahren. um welche zeit kann ich nicht sagen ... am ehesten nm
SV Furpach: mist, wollte gerade attackiern:)

I quote Jäger from the race chat today!

[el Galactico]

Hi,

sorry to react that late. I will not have enough time to do the proper research and designing. IMO let Gip do it.

It would be a shame to not have the Andes this year. It would feel like another nail in the coffin of this game.

[Alkworld]

I'm also strongly pro riding the Andes and also with the regular length. IMO long tours like that are still the best thing in C4F, and even still have the best participation (Vuelta has always been lower than Giro or Tour). Maybe November without vacations also helps keeping the few players active.

[Gipfelstuermer]

But I refuse to design for the 9 people who will want to ride it

OK, you were right, 9 people who will want to ride it so far: Jäger, AAD, Gala, Tukh, Alk, Furpach, Hansa, Poke, me.

Not sure if all of them sign up or less or more but enough for me to design it! Enough for you to put it in the preliminary off-season calendar? And the plan would be 12 days stage race? (slightly shortened from 16 to 12 days and presumably starting on a Monday finishing Friday, e.g. 8 Nov - 19 Nov)

[Robyklebt]

Stop asking me all these questions!

Length? Ask what people want. Alk for example just said he prefers regular length . Poke thought about 2 1 week races. Their opinion counts as much as mine... mine would be if we ride the Andes (and learn to count, I said I would start, meaning I want to ride and dominate the Andes as usual, IF...xxxx) but cut it here, change it there, we might as well not ride it (which incidentally for the game might still be the best option, but I seem pretty isolated on that opinion). If Andes, normal length. So if that's 15 days instead of 16 still the same really... but 12? That btw is my opinion, not a command!

But again, not up to me to decide, ask around.
And I will put editions in depending on how many people ask for it at a certain time...

And designing Andes won't disqualify you from the Dec-Tour competition btw!

[Gipfelstuermer]

And designing Andes won't disqualify you from the Dec-Tour competition btw!

Ok, convinced me, now starting to design Andes!

Length... some 12-16 days depending on further feedback here and what kind of route I come up with... opinions are welcomed.

[Hansa]

i like 16 days im also fine with 12 days if that would attract more people.

[Chense]

Well this year might also for me the first time ever to ride the Andes at least its like 80:20 i would say and most likely early evening. 16 days would be perfect but also 12 are reall fine for me.

[waer]

my wish
16 stage
18/19 hour
thanks

[Gipfelstuermer]

Today I present the Campeonato de los Andes 2021 under its slogan Colombia es Pasion! inspired by the book with the same name. The book portrays many riders from the Colombian/Ecuadorian Andes, who made their way from farmer's sons to professional cyclists.

So this year, I was lazy. I asked each of the riders to contribute one stage to this Andes edition and here is the result:

GENERAL FEATURES OF THE 2021 ANDES
- 1 ITT, 3 Flat, 3 Hilly, 8 Mountain & multiple Pave/Dirt Road stages
- The 8 (EIGHT!) HC mountain stages, including 5 mountain arrivals
- Gravel: 4 Stages include realistic gravel parts.
- Pavé: 1 Stage includes pavé (in the old town of Quito).
- 2,769km to be completed (Longest Campeonato since 2010)
- 67,790m to be climbed (Highest elevation gain since 2010)

KEY HIGHLIGHTS 2021

- 60km ITT: That's what Rigoberto URAN wanted (see stage 1)
- Casa de Nairo will be visited for the second time in C4F history. (see stage 5)
- Alto de Letras the longest road climb in the world, 78km long and 3,800m elevations gain. It is a surprise that this one features for the first time in the Campeonato. (see stage 11)
- Laguna de Cuicocha features for the third time and could be the decisive climb. (see stage 13)
- Pavé in Quito, also for the third time, and could mix things up late in the race. (see stage 14)
- Cotopaxi Volcano features for the first time as Richard Carapaz favorite training area. (see stage 15)
- Impossible to control: The mountains and the length of stages make it impossible. That's what people love (and hate) about Andes.

THE MAP

andes2021.png (393.25 KiB) Viewed 2325 times

GENERAL DESIGN RULES

Mountains:
HC-Cat.: 2000hm >6% OR 2500hm
1-Cat.: 1500hm >6% OR 2000hm
2-Cat.: 1000hm >6% OR 1500hm
3-Cat.: 500hm >6% OR 1000hm
4-Cat.: 250hm >6% OR 500hm

Sprints:
3 IS on Flat stages
2 IS on Hilly stages
1 IS on HC stages

THE RACE

Et.1 (ITT): Rigoberto Uran: ITT Urrao - 60km - 2060elevation gain- 59.5min
Expert Opinion from Rigoberto Uran: "It's an honor to have the Andes start in my hometown Urrao. As I like hilly time trials, this is what I designed."
´
http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... 021andes01




Et.2 (HC): Santiago Botero: Urrao - Alto El Limonar - 257km - 7020elevation gain- 136min
Expert Opinion from Santiago Botero: "The Andes are the Andes. And here in the area around Medellin, where I was born, I know all these climbs. They are harder than at the Tour de France. It was easy for me to win the mountains classification at the Tour de France, so let's make this a bit more difficult then the TDF! "
´
http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... 021andes02

Et.3 (Flat): Fernando Gaviria: Medellin - La Ceja - 173km - 2400elevation gain- 93min
Expert Opinion from Fernando Gaviria: "Well, I disagree with Santiago. Andes should also have something for sprinters like me. That's why I led the race from Medellin to my hometown La Ceja. It's basically flat there."
´
http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... 021andes03

Et.4 (Flat): Cochise: La Ceja - La Dominga - 147km - 1680elevation gain- 79min
Expert Opinion from Cochise: "Ha! You've not forgotten about me! That is so nice! But, well, I am old now, 147km will be enough ok? And can we do mainly downhill? There is this nice downhill road from Medellin to La Dominga. That's perfect for me."
´
http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... 021andes04

Et.5 (HC): Nairo Quintana: La Dominga - Casa de Nairo - 252km - 7810elevation gain- 134min
Expert Opinion from Nairo Quintana: "Ok, enough flat stages for the Andes. Let's go into my territory. We climb as much as we can and then we ride home to have dinner with my parents. Perfect. "
´
http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... 021andes05

Et.6 (HC): Fabio Parra: Sogamosa - Rifugio Ecotistico - 215km - 6360elevation gain- 122min
Expert Opinion from Fabio Parra: "Well, that was a nice stage from Nairo, but now let's start in my hometown Sogamosa and do a proper mountain finish on Rifugio Ecotistico (they have better food than Nairo's mum as well)."
´
http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... 021andes06

Et.7 (HC): Miguel Angel Lopez: Pesca - Pesca - 150km - 3990elevation gain- 88min
Expert Opinion from Miguel Angel Lopez: "Cool, cool, I like those mountain stages from Nairo and Fabio, but I think we can have some more riding around at 3000 to 4000 meters altitude. A little 150km loop around my hometown Pesca will be fun before the rest day."
´
http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... 021andes07

***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****
REST DAY
***** ***** ********** ***** *****

Et.8 (HC): Victor Hugo Pena: Bogota - Paramo de Verjon - 170km - 4480elevation gain- 100min
Expert Opinion from Victor Hugo Pena: "After a rest day, you all arrived very relaxed here in my hometown Bogota? Excellent! Because we Colombians are all mountain riders somehow and so I take you on another HC mountain stage! Parama de Verjon is a nice climb. You will like it!"
´
http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... 021andes08

Et.9 (Hilly): Egan Bernal: Paramo de Verjon - Zipaquira - 235km - 4330elevation gain- 128min
Expert Opinion from Egan Bernal: "Nice stage from Victor. I know this area well, because I am also from Bogota, but I grew up in Zipaquira so let me take you there. It's a nice hilly 235km ride!"
´
http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... 021andes09

Et.10 (Hilly): Luis Herrera: Zipaquira - Guaduas - 150km - 2950elevation gain- 92min
Expert Opinion from Luis Herrera: "Puh, I retired in 1992 and now you want to ride a race with me? Well, we can take the route downhill from Egan's place to Guaduas. 150km, I can probably still do that. The Alto del Trigo is tough, but somehow I will make it."
´
http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... 021andes10

Et.11 (HC): Esteban Chaves: Guaduas - Manizales - 225km - 6210elevation gain- 145min
Expert Opinion from Esteban Chaves: "Ok, those 10 stages were a nice warm up for this stage. Let me take you to Alto de Letras. It is a 78km long climb. The longest in the world. And beautiful. And from there, we can take the gravel road to Mirador del Ruiz. Once you have climbed these two mountains, you've seen the best of Colombia. "
´
http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... 021andes11

Et.12 (Flat): Jhonatan Narvaez: Pasto - Tulcan - 105km - 2190elevation gain- 66min
Expert Opinion from Jhonatan Narvaez: "Colombia es pasion, but all the Ecuadorian cyclist come from the border of Ecuador and Colombia. Let me take you to Tulcan, right at the border, and the main cyclist hub of Ecuador. The ride is really easy, so afterwards we can spend some time in the cycling school of Juan Carlos Rosero, who teached us everything."
´
http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... 021andes12

Et.13 (HC): Jonathan Caicedo: Tinajillas - Laguna de Cuicocha - 246km - 6360elevation gain- 139min
Expert Opinion from Jonathan Caicedo: "After the rest day with Jhonatan, we can go back into the mountains, up to Lagune de Cuicocha. It is a fantastic 40km climb, with two small plateaus in between. The beginning is steeper than the end, so it is not easy to decide, where to attack."
´
http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... 021andes13

Et.14 (Hilly): Juan Carlos Rosero: Laguna de Cuicocha - Quito - 221km - 5700elevation gain- 123min
Expert Opinion from Juan Carlos Rosero: "It's so nice that you come to Ecuador as well. I have built up a lot around here, with Jhon, Jon and Richard. But they are all mountain riders. I wish there were some guys who are strong in the flat and on pavé. We have some pavé here in Quito, so let me show you around!"
´
http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... 021andes14

Et.15 (HC): Richard Carapaz: Quito - Cotopaxi 360 - 163km - 4250elevation gain- 88min
Expert Opinion from Richard Carapaz: "Ok, welcome to the last stage, which features in my favorite training area. We ride a complete circle around the volcano Cotopaxi and then as far up as the gravel street allows. The street only goes to the Rifugio, but 4600m is not so bad, even if the volcano goes up to 5900m."
´
http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... 021andes15


HAVE FUN!

[Alkworld]

KEY HIGHLIGHTS 2021
...
- Cotopaxi Volcano features for the first time as Richard Carapaz favorite training area. (see stage 15)

You obviously seem to forget the Campeonato of 2013 --> Campeonato de los Andes 2013
As far as I remember the street goes up to 4500m, but it was paved after Rafael Correa had a bike accident up there. I don't remember, if the street was paved until the base of that climb, have to check my photos
Edit: checked the photos, but inconclusive. If anything, it was rather soft gravel and there was construction ongoing in 2012 when I was up there.