March 2021

[Robyklebt]

Blame Luques!

Stupid Donkey. Originally 2 sheets in the excel proposal. 2 or 3 each PN-TA.

He chose 2, ok.

Then when updating the proposal, Catalunya 2 or 3, managed to copy and update the wrong sheets. So instead of 2+2+3/4 Cat. He got 3+3+3/4 Cat.....

Hopefully changes it back to 2+2, because we have horrible 1 day participation with 3 UAE and 4 1 day races per day. Imagine 6 tours... then even the tours would be horribly small groups.

[Robyklebt]

Details in the Classiques Belges thread. It's almost the same course as 2020 anyway. Mintact 162, before the Paterberg

Online tomorrow, due to the slight Donkeymess with Excel better to wait until Luques has a second chance to look at it...

[luques]

Ok rolled back to original proposal, should be correct

[Pokemon Club]

Hum Donkey I think to change Strade Bianche. This version of white road was too light with only *. Don't know how that must be draw but remember that * was really too easy. Why not adapt it and make white road sectors harder every 3 or 4 km for example ?

[Robyklebt]

Hum Donkey I think to change Strade Bianche. This version of white road was too light with only *. Don't know how that must be draw but remember that * was really too easy. Why not adapt it and make white road sectors harder every 3 or 4 km for example ?

Already did a change.

Was every 6th km ** the last 2 (?) years, changed it to every 5th. And counted the "non gravel c4f because of downhill km too". So already should be a bit better. Every 4th km for next year might be an option.



Thanks LuqLuq! Sorry for the wrong Excelsheet correction.

I regard this version as finalized.
Stuff that is designed is on. Check for mistakes as usual....

Remain to design:

To design:

-Nokere-Koerse (on flamme rouge, but not viewable, on their site seems blocked like Het N. and KBK. So we might need Lombard again or somebody that speaks flemish/dutch)
-Brendene-Koksijde
-Per sempre Alfredo
-De Panne
-Cholet Pays de Loire (Something that might be usable (but not downloadable) on their site, haven't checked if it's the same as last year, other races higher priority.)
-Gent Wevelgem
-Dwars door Vlaanderen
-Giro di Sicilia

For the Belgian races might be that covid-black out for all of them... so Lombard-time?
Some might turn out to be exactly the same as last year, so if anybody wants to design first check if it's the same.

[Pokemon Club]

Hum Donkey I think to change Strade Bianche. This version of white road was too light with only *. Don't know how that must be draw but remember that * was really too easy. Why not adapt it and make white road sectors harder every 3 or 4 km for example ?

Already did a change.

Was every 6th km ** the last 2 (?) years, changed it to every 5th. And counted the "non gravel c4f because of downhill km too". So already should be a bit better. Every 4th km for next year might be an option.

Sorry I thnik I don't explain it well.
I saw your correction yes. But what I have in mind looks more like :

KM 1 : *
KM 2 : *
KM 3 : *
KM 4 : **
KM 5 : **
KM 6 : **
KM 7 : ***
KM 8 : ***
KM 9 : ***
KM 10 : *****
...

More the sector is long more that become complicate, something like that

[Bear]

I like to have new ideas for gravel/white roads. But I think **** or ***** is too much unless it's muddy or really difficult terrain. The typical strade bianche is maybe ** or *** for c4f imo. It's more than * for sure as with * almost anybody can follow or stay in the group. I am not sure if even *** is already too much

[Gipfelstuermer]

Clearly * is not enough for Strade Bianche.

Poke's idea is not bad as in reality the race gets harder and harder by each white road kilometer. However, that is a question of the teams and HOW they ride the race. For example, last year teams rode extremely hard from the beginning and by the middle of the race, there were many many small groups... so in RSF, it is also a question of HOW managers ride. If nobody makes hard tempo, nobody gets dropped.

But it's a problem with the * of course! It does not make sense to make hard tempo there because you cannot drop anybody anyway...

What about the current solution?
Generally * and sometimes **. It is for sure better than only *. But the problem with that is, where do you put ** and where do you put * ? Maybe if you know these roads in detail (have been there or very detailed Street View...), you can select the right km... but then it's again a problem of RSF engine. 4** is extremely selective while -1** you hardly sieb anybody. So suddenly with the ** every x km, it makes a big difference, where exactly you put ** ....

My idea is simple: Make it all **. Why? With ** you can drop others. If you ride hard at the beginning, the peloton will be thinner. Managers have to select the helpers, you continue to ride hard, you drop even more riders. So with all **, you get an opportunity that currently you don't have. Ride hard for multiple km, you will drop a lot of riders.

Why not *** ? For me seems to be too hard. Make a 8*** and suddenly is like RVV... You drop everybody there with a pavé-classic which is not really realistic. In real life you can only thin down the group section by section. It's not like the Muur where you drop everyone on one km.

[Pokemon Club]

Clearly * is not enough for Strade Bianche.

Poke's idea is not bad as in reality the race gets harder and harder by each white road kilometer. However, that is a question of the teams and HOW they ride the race. For example, last year teams rode extremely hard from the beginning and by the middle of the race, there were many many small groups... so in RSF, it is also a question of HOW managers ride. If nobody makes hard tempo, nobody gets dropped.

But it's a problem with the * of course! It does not make sense to make hard tempo there because you cannot drop anybody anyway...

What about the current solution?
Generally * and sometimes **. It is for sure better than only *. But the problem with that is, where do you put ** and where do you put * ? Maybe if you know these roads in detail (have been there or very detailed Street View...), you can select the right km... but then it's again a problem of RSF engine. 4** is extremely selective while -1** you hardly sieb anybody. So suddenly with the ** every x km, it makes a big difference, where exactly you put ** ....

My idea is simple: Make it all **. Why? With ** you can drop others. If you ride hard at the beginning, the peloton will be thinner. Managers have to select the helpers, you continue to ride hard, you drop even more riders. So with all **, you get an opportunity that currently you don't have. Ride hard for multiple km, you will drop a lot of riders.

Why not *** ? For me seems to be too hard. Make a 8*** and suddenly is like RVV... You drop everybody there with a pavé-classic which is not really realistic. In real life you can only thin down the group section by section. It's not like the Muur where you drop everyone on one km.

it hard to find a good solution. It is true that *** is too hard.
After the longest sector in C4F make 10km. So for each white road sector the 5 first km *, then ** can be a good alternative ?

[Gipfelstuermer]

it hard to find a good solution. It is true that *** is too hard.
After the longest sector in C4F make 10km. So for each white road sector the 5 first km *, then ** can be a good alternative ?

Yes, I think good alternative. I would even be O.K. with all white road **. (because * is nearly like perfect tarmac in RSF )

But we change it for 2021 or 2022? I don't mind, but certainly some people will say for 2021 it is too late.

[Robyklebt]

Count me in for the it's too late for 2021 crowd.


Making Strade Bianche more selective yes, but let's not forget either that in reality climbers can compete there well too. Open race, but as often is the case people here seem to have a problem with actual open races (while advertising their specialized races as open at the same time, I love the irony) and want to put it into the right drawer, classics with pavé in this case. But that's not what the race is in reality.
Up to **, ok, all, don't know, the idea not to reset after the ** km but to keep it at ** sounds like a good start, so not *-*-*-*-**-*..as now, but *-*-*-*-**-**...

Gravel in general we simply don't know how to deal with it though. Not only Strade Bianche.

Tro Bonbon.... there last year it was all ** it seems. Ok, short ones at * probably, since there are a few * Geniez won that race once btw, and well, he's a climber really.

Finestre: We regularly misdesign it as having pavé, no matter that the effect is not at all like the one we have in reality. Where it doesn't seem to matter in the least if a rider is good in flat or not. Some riders seem to suffer more, Contador IMO is in that category, others as light and sucky in flat like Rujano seemed to have 0 problem with it.

So yeah, we have neither a fix policy on how to deal with gravel in general, nor any good general solutions... neither do I really, for Strade Bianche I'd say in 22 we go for a more selective gravel version, sounds good.

[Gipfelstuermer]

Count me in for the it's too late for 2021 crowd.

Also too late to make it 9 riders per team as with every other World Tour race?

[Robyklebt]

wäääääääääääää

Ok ok, for that we should be ok, will change later today (not now because c4f is notoriously lazy in the morning, no profiles shown, uploading races doesn't work, so changing something might not work either)

[Robyklebt]

Bredene-Koksijde (for us under the old name Handzame) done.

Absolutely no guarantee on any kind of precision on all the moronbergs, Rodeberg, Sulfurberg etc.

The pavé sections, there's more, but it's all 200-300 meter in villages, so all 0 except the Kemmelberg and possibly the last one, 600 meters according to la Flamme rouge probably ok too, but I put in the occasional one with 300 meters or so... all *.
Kemmelberg as usual lately with 8***

[Robyklebt]

Giro di Sicilia 21 is cancelled it seems.

So we'll ride the 2020 version again. On in the next days..

[Robyklebt]

Everything but 3 races online (real races...)

-Gent Wevelgem and Dwars door Vlaanderen I'll need Lombards or somebody else's help, for some usable newspaper articles like for Kuurne. And a youride or something similar link my attempts at finding something there haven't been successful.
-Per sempre Alfredo: Nothing to be found. (yet?)

Small change, Cholet not on the 27th as planned, but 29th (reality 28th) 27th Loire Atlantique which in reality is postponed to October, which I hadn't seen earlier. But since we try to follow the original calender, back in on the 27th

[Bear]

Regarding Gent Wevelgem and Dwars door Vlaanderen it's really hard to find anything. I just found one article about DdV which gives a little details:

https://www.cyclingstage.com/dwars-door ... -ddv-2021/

I am not sure if the Nokereberg was also 9km from the finish last year.

[Robyklebt]

That would be the last edition, yes.

Saw that page 2 days ago too, but don't trust it too much, earlier this year for a race they had information that was clearly outdated for something, forgot what. But anyway, looks like it will be the last editions we had for both Gent-Wevelgem and DDV at this point.

Per Sempre Alfredo will be officially annonced tomorrow, so then or Friday online...

[Pokemon Club]

Don't forget fantasy for next week Donkey, can be nice for people who don't know yet if they do Catalunya or Belgium Classics

[LombardInvest]

Everything but 3 races online (real races...)

-Gent Wevelgem and Dwars door Vlaanderen I'll need Lombards or somebody else's help, for some usable newspaper articles like for Kuurne. And a youride or something similar link my attempts at finding something there haven't been successful.
-Per sempre Alfredo: Nothing to be found. (yet?)

Small change, Cholet not on the 27th as planned, but 29th (reality 28th) 27th Loire Atlantique which in reality is postponed to October, which I hadn't seen earlier. But since we try to follow the original calender, back in on the 27th

Hey

Sorry to respond a little later.
At the moment there is indeed very little or no information about the course online (Wevelgem & Waregem).

This weekend I will take a closer look.

[Robyklebt]

If you found something, post it as fast as possible.

But just using the last versions we have of course isn't a problem either, it's always similar enough anyway.

I'll wait a bit longer to put Gent and Dwars online, but normally if Lombard or anybody else doesn't find anything, will put them on on Wed/Thursday.

More important almost. RVV and Paris Roubaix, anybody knows anything about these too?

[Pokemon Club]

For Roubaix not sure that will be ride in April due to lockdown. Less and less confident for that, there is a big chance that will be postponed later during the season.
For RVV no info because they keep it hide as for DDV or Wevelgem IMO.
For these Classics as modifications will be minor anyway, we can just put the last edition that was ridden maybe?

[Robyklebt]

Yep, that's what it will be most likely. Just waiting if Lombard or anybody else who is fluent enough in flemish can find some newspaper report and a youride route or so, like it happened for Het Volk and KBK. But otherwise will be simply the last editions we had.

[Robyklebt]

As expected Gent and Dwars on with our 2019 editions. For Gent we could have tried to do the 2020 one, but since we have no clue if that's the same as 21, at least I don't, doesn't matter.

March should all be ok and on. Yell if there are mistakes. Or write.

[LombardInvest]

The organizations, and especially Flanders Classics, release very little information about the routes.
This is partly due to the fact that here in Belgium we may get a new heavy lockdown.
And they still want to keep the races going.

We know this about Gent Wevelgem; https://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20210323_95303668
The plugstreets and the hils are listed and there is also a map of the route, but no detailed directions or gpx.
This route is 95% similar to the real October 2020 race.

Dwars door Vlaanderen; all we actually know; https://sporza.be/nl/2021/03/02/kruisbe ... 718149867/
But I do expect a similar list with the hills and cobblestones in the coming days.
We know that the course has changed a bit compared to 2019;
"de Nieuwe Kwaremont" is replaced by "de Kluisberg"
"de Kluisberg" is visited again 35 kilometers later
The last kilometers of the final will also change, but will remain flat.

I think it is possible to opt to ride an older version this year. Exact info isn't going to be released until a day or two before the race.

It will also be difficult to find exact routes for "de Ronde" and the Brabantsepijl.

But I keep looking and if I find something I will let you know!