Bug using finance bug 18.03.2021 (Idéfix fantasticos Flolandria OLCycle waerl)

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Robyklebt
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Bug using finance bug 18.03.2021 (Idéfix fantasticos Flolandria OLCycle waerl)

Post by Robyklebt » Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:33 pm

Different teams have used the finance bug today, some of them with mass sales. Bug today means that the tax for all teams is at 5%.

Clearly bug-using, clearly not acceptable. Action should be taken as soon as possible, before those team can go on a shopping spree thus distorting the youth market.

The most elegant solution for me:

1) Calculate how mcuh those teams got for their riders.
2) Assume they had a tax of 70%. Not all, maybe none of them would have a tax that high, but it's the easiest way to calculate. Why waste hours of time trying to figure out what their tax was before the bug using? Ask them? Sorry, can't be trusted.
3) Add a 5% penalty for bugusing.

The FPC hands out a fine, 75% of the money they got from the bugusing sales. Done.

The other option is to have Luques do stuff by hand... but seriously, do we want him to waste time that he could use to work on the new version on something like this. Bugusers that knowingly tried to use the bug to get an advantage over other players? No, I certainly don't want that. Deal with them with the fairness committee. If then one of them thinks he's been treated to harshly he still can plead his case, had a tax of 25%, clearly guessable from my team, why others with 50+ lose less I suffer more, bla bla.. ok ok, fairplay committee can then give a refund maybe.

But first IMO a fast, decisive penalty for those bugusers is necessary.

As of this moment the teams that sold riders today are:

Idéfix
fantasticos
Flolandria
OLCycle

Will update if more decide using the bug is the right thing to do.
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Re: Bug using finance bug 18.03.2021

Post by flockmastoR » Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:02 pm

Robyklebt wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:33 pm
Different teams have used the finance bug today, some of them with mass sales. Bug today means that the tax for all teams is at 5%.

Clearly bug-using, clearly not acceptable. Action should be taken as soon as possible, before those team can go on a shopping spree thus distorting the youth market.

The most elegant solution for me:

1) Calculate how mcuh those teams got for their riders.
2) Assume they had a tax of 70%. Not all, maybe none of them would have a tax that high, but it's the easiest way to calculate. Why waste hours of time trying to figure out what their tax was before the bug using? Ask them? Sorry, can't be trusted.
3) Add a 5% penalty for bugusing.

The FPC hands out a fine, 75% of the money they got from the bugusing sales. Done.

The other option is to have Luques do stuff by hand... but seriously, do we want him to waste time that he could use to work on the new version on something like this. Bugusers that knowingly tried to use the bug to get an advantage over other players? No, I certainly don't want that. Deal with them with the fairness committee. If then one of them thinks he's been treated to harshly he still can plead his case, had a tax of 25%, clearly guessable from my team, why others with 50+ lose less I suffer more, bla bla.. ok ok, fairplay committee can then give a refund maybe.

But first IMO a fast, decisive penalty for those bugusers is necessary.

As of this moment the teams that sold riders today are:

Idéfix
fantasticos
Flolandria
OLCycle

Will update if more decide using the bug is the right thing to do.
See it the same way, just make an ingame punishment.
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Re: Bug using finance bug 18.03.2021

Post by luques » Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:13 pm

Happy to let this in the hand of the FPK actually (sorry for the problem)

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Re: Bug using finance bug 18.03.2021

Post by Robyklebt » Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:17 am

We can add Waerl to the list...

So

Idéfix
fantasticos
Flolandria
OLCycle
waerl

It doesn't have to be exactly the proposed thing of course, just a proposal. Probably a fairer way to handle it would be:

1) Calculate the money they got for the sold riders.
2) Calculate the value of all the riders they had before the sales
With that you get an approximate team value, the cash is not in of course.
Then hand out the fine/money back, accordingly. So not 75% for everybody, but if somebody had a tax of 50%... either make it 45% of the money received from the sales (+5% that they sold at makes 50%) or add an extra fine of 5% (which IMO would be warranted here).

But action should be taken fast, before the bugusing teams start spending their undeserved money on the youth market.

Yes, I know, with the final click needed by lesossies who is not always on regularly it might take time, but the FPC still should act fast, if then a decision is taken in a few days and it's that final click missing, you still can appeal to the game owner for a exceptional click on his part.

And would be nice if the general public can be informed about what's happening too. Is case being opened, what are the actions taken etc. Mine here are only suggestions, which IMO obviously make sense, otherwise wouldn't suggest them, but of course it's the FPC that decides and has better ideas maybe.. Yes, public stonings aren't popular, but at the same time it acts as a deterrent for future bug using. (Or if the FPC finds that it was all ok, as an incentive for everybody else the next time this happens :lol: )
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Re: Bug using finance bug 18.03.2021 (Idéfix fantasticos Flolandria OLCycle waerl)

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:19 am

Robyklebt wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:33 pm

Idéfix
fantasticos
Flolandria
OLCycle
So these teams are also invited to contribute by stating

1. Which riders sold at which amount
2. What their current tax rate is (Login Data via PM please), or better what their tax rate was before selling.

Why 2.? No reason to give higher penalty to poorer teams if they admit and help with the calculations.
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Re: Bug using finance bug 18.03.2021 (Idéfix fantasticos Flolandria OLCycle waerl)

Post by Robyklebt » Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:34 am

Gipfelstuermer wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:19 am
Robyklebt wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:33 pm

Idéfix
fantasticos
Flolandria
OLCycle
So these teams are also invited to contribute by stating

1. Which riders sold at which amount
2. What their current tax rate is (Login Data via PM please), or better what their tax rate was before selling.

Why 2.? No reason to give higher penalty to poorer teams if they admit and help with the calculations.
Ehm, you can see the amount they sold it at in the transfer tab under statistics, teams. So no need for them to state anything. The amount shown there is what you actually get, so just add up there. (Having them do it... you'd need to double check their statements anyway)
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Re: Bug using finance bug 18.03.2021 (Idéfix fantasticos Flolandria OLCycle)

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:24 pm

FPC is reviewing this case.

Here is the tax formula by the way: T = MIN(MAX((C - 20) * 4% + 10%, 5%),70%)
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Re: Bug using finance bug 18.03.2021 (Idéfix fantasticos Flolandria OLCycle waerl)

Post by NoMoreIdols » Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:10 pm

Detailed calculation in attachment.

All in all i only won 3 310 303.79 in profit.

Personnally, a quick decision has been made when I saw the selling value of the riders. It was very doubtful that i'd ever be returning to c4f and decided the money would have provided me a better starting point if i ever wondered of making a comeback. Since it's a bug I clearly don't think it's my error.
(in the context of an inactive player)
If I buy a TV for 10 euros in place of 1000 euro I will also use this bug and buy the TV.

I hope my calculation are correct and helps someone and gives them a bit more free time.

Extra screenshot:
Image
Attachments
Calc.xlsx
(12.79 KiB) Downloaded 81 times

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Re: Bug using finance bug 18.03.2021 (Idéfix fantasticos Flolandria OLCycle waerl)

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:20 pm

Idéfix wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:59 pm

Regarding the past, harassment, insults, repeated multiaccounting, never got more than 100k fine.
Without precise calculations (will come later when i have the time for it), the 5% tax for my 4 riders sold is about 420k (430k?). I consider that would be a quite fair amount to contrebalance the issue. And a record in terms of fine, more than 4 times the very ugly behaviours we all could see in past...
Thanks for quick reply Idefix, but less explanation and more numbers would help as in Flolandria's case. Not even precise calculation needed, just how much cash and capital you have right now with a proof, e.g. share Login Data as for a sitter.

Then we can calculate how much profit you made with bug using. If you are so rich and we assume 70%, ok, but I dont think you are so rich, otherwise wouldn't need nö bug use probably ^^ So will be better for you to give the correct numbers.
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Re: Bug using finance bug 18.03.2021 (Idéfix fantasticos Flolandria OLCycle waerl)

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:25 pm

NoMoreIdols wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:10 pm
Detailed calculation in attachment.

All in all i only won 3 310 303.79 in profit.

Personnally, a quick decision has been made when I saw the selling value of the riders. It was very doubtful that i'd ever be returning to c4f and decided the money would have provided me a better starting point if i ever wondered of making a comeback. Since it's a bug I clearly don't think it's my error.
(in the context of an inactive player)
If I buy a TV for 10 euros in place of 1000 euro I will also use this bug and buy the TV.

I hope my calculation are correct and helps someone and gives them a bit more free time.

Extra screenshot:
Image
Thanks Flolandria also. Good help in calculating.

What we needed was really the beginning or ending cash and/or capital and/or tax. Because that can not be seen by FPC members. 1.7M at start sounds realistic but can you also send a proof or share Login Data like for a sitter? Just to make the case clear for all FPC members and those that make final decision.
GIP MASTERPLAN
Gameplay: Flexible Min-Tact. Improve Sprint System. Windkante.
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Re: Bug using finance bug 18.03.2021 (Idéfix fantasticos Flolandria OLCycle waerl)

Post by Hansa » Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:32 pm

Btw for Waerls sell it looks like it wasnt on 5% taxes btw.
Hansa

est. 03.08.2009

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Re: Bug using finance bug 18.03.2021 (Idéfix fantasticos Flolandria OLCycle waerl)

Post by NoMoreIdols » Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:37 pm

Gipfelstuermer wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:25 pm
NoMoreIdols wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:10 pm
Detailed calculation in attachment.

All in all i only won 3 310 303.79 in profit.

Personnally, a quick decision has been made when I saw the selling value of the riders. It was very doubtful that i'd ever be returning to c4f and decided the money would have provided me a better starting point if i ever wondered of making a comeback. Since it's a bug I clearly don't think it's my error.
(in the context of an inactive player)
If I buy a TV for 10 euros in place of 1000 euro I will also use this bug and buy the TV.

I hope my calculation are correct and helps someone and gives them a bit more free time.

Extra screenshot:
Image
Thanks Flolandria also. Good help in calculating.

What we needed was really the beginning or ending cash and/or capital and/or tax. Because that can not be seen by FPC members. 1.7M at start sounds realistic but can you also send a proof or share Login Data like for a sitter? Just to make the case clear for all FPC members and those that make final decision.

Image
starting money is the current capital minues the money from riders.

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Re: Bug using finance bug 18.03.2021 (Idéfix fantasticos Flolandria OLCycle waerl)

Post by Robyklebt » Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:00 am

Idéfix wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:59 pm
Second, as far as i know, the Donkey is not in FPK. Good for the report, but now it would be appreciable to discuss only with FPK members and the concerned teams. That would avoid trash talking and partial arguments (he already proved his ability for that). And i wont be a delator, but Donkey's list of teams that sold minimum 1 rider during the bug is not full, and seems a bit focussed on teams he dislikes (you can see the past here on this FP part of forum, for OL or me vs him).
I'm focused on teams I dislike? He's obsessed with me. Instead of sticking to the topic he wastes a whole paragraph on Big Donkey. And yes, I will answer to the usual slander, we all know that. Little Idefix, the nationalist dog, thought he was being so clever, hiding his trash talk in this post, warning of me trash talking? Lies like "the list is not full" are simply not acceptable.

Interesting how the rest of the post is full of lies too, like nobody got more than 100k for anything it seems. Liar.

And btw
Idéfix wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:59 pm
I am not responsible for the bug. In the past, several teams benefited from bugs, with purpose or not. I lost 2 races because of downhill pavé bug, in favor of someone else. Never asked for a compensation, and no reason for that. Bugs happens.
But Idefix is responsible for using the bug. Instead of assuming his responsability Idéfix once again babbles on about Donkeys, tries to come accross as a innocent victim. I mean... bug happens!!!!What can he do? (Not use it, like the majority of users, but of course that's asked too much)

And btw, I still don't demand Idéfix to be banned for this. (Winning him of course would still be positive (Yes little fixi, you leaving wouldn't be "losing you"... it's a win all around)

I think fantasticos (because IMO he's a multi too and regularly involved in every bug using event) and OL (for reasons I know to be true but can't prove) deserve to be banned.
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Re: Bug using finance bug 18.03.2021 (Idéfix fantasticos Flolandria OLCycle waerl)

Post by Robyklebt » Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:50 am

Lol

You brought me back into the discussion after I had basically announced that I thought I had done what I thought right to do and would leave the rest to the guys in charge.

Open a thread, which IMO is necessary, but hadn't been done yet, and 2 proposals for how to deal with it.

It's you that then decided to needlessly bring up my name again spreading your usual lies and misrepresentations. As usual probably with the goal from taking the focus from yourself and somehow making it about me.

You should thank me for opening the thread, unfair behavior, bug-using, shouldn't be accepted and be let go, don't you agree? Ups, you most likely don't since you were the first to try to profit from it. Ah well, the rest of the users should be thankful for my prompt reaction then.
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Re: Bug using finance bug 18.03.2021 (Idéfix fantasticos Flolandria OLCycle waerl)

Post by Robyklebt » Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:57 am

Idéfix wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:46 am
Here they are!Image
You realize that you're not helping anybody with this?

Everyone can see that under transfer....

I think I'll stay longer and help the FPC a bit by double checking your info... You've proven that you try to profit from bugs, it's known that you're not trustworthy, it's likely you'll try to understate the illegal profit you made from your bug-using.
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Re: Bug using finance bug 18.03.2021 (Idéfix fantasticos Flolandria OLCycle waerl)

Post by Robyklebt » Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:11 am

What, the one starting to trashtalk was, once again, YOU!

Specifically I think I deserve an apology for "And i wont be a delator, but Donkey's list of teams that sold minimum 1 rider during the bug is not full, and seems a bit focussed on teams he dislikes"

Or if not proof that the list is not complete. Btw, what's a delator?

The rest of your Donkey-paragraph of course is just the usual trashtalk. After all it's you that manage to show up in any thread involving me, but not you, not the other way around.

And there is a reason it's in the fairness section, this part here btw. Because the bug itself can and has to be dealt in that part of the forum. Reports on what's wrong, solved. And if somebody discovers that there's still issues, that's for that thread.

This thread is about the fairness issue, the fact that 5 managers tried to take advantage of this bug. Bug-using=fairplay issue.
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Re: Bug using finance bug 18.03.2021 (Idéfix fantasticos Flolandria OLCycle waerl)

Post by Robyklebt » Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:50 am

I think you're mistaking me for yourself.....

All you had to do is not bring my name up for absolutely nothing.
All you have to do now is to apologize for spreading false information.
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Re: Bug using finance bug 18.03.2021 (Idéfix fantasticos Flolandria OLCycle waerl)

Post by Robyklebt » Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:24 pm

So since Idéfix indirectly requested me to make sure everything is done correctly in regards with his bug-using, here comes the Donkey: Calculation mistakes possible everywhere of course.

Idéfix got:

8'395'292 credits from his sales. Riders valued 8'837'149.xxx

Interesting already that in the information he provided, it shows his "total capital" (wrong word there I think, probably Luques meant it the other way around, Current balance for that?) At the moment at 3'870'690. Which means that as could be expected he is already withholding information. He spent 1'795'201 on a new rider, so 2'729'401 are missing. They probably have already been spent otherwise, a new youthrider most likely. That is assuming he had exactly 0 on his account before the bug-using, which of course is unlikely.. so the money spent on youth riders is probably more.

Value of his riders before the sales, assuming none of them were cheapened: (and no Donkey-calculation mistakes)

35'364'061 (no guarantee at all that I didn't do any misclicks of course)

Full team value can't be known, since he's hiding the invested money from us for the moment, how much did he have before?

Now it's 35'606'660. According to the information he provided. New site. In my case the info on the new site doesn't seem to include youth riders... .so well, it seems Idéfix is trying to hide the money already spent from the inquiry. Maybe he could post the screen shot of youth riders and the finance page of the old flash version too. Full cooperation and all you know.

So, the first order of business should be to figure out how much money our bug-user Idéfix had before the sales.

Full disclosure necessary. That means:
-Finance page screen shot flash site
-Youth rider page screen shot (should be the same information as the finance page in the end)

Or even better, provide Gipfel with the login.

If somebody had the time to use a bug trying get an advantage over honest players, it can be expected that he finds the time to provide the FPC with correct and useful info!
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Re: Bug using finance bug 18.03.2021 (Idéfix fantasticos Flolandria OLCycle waerl)

Post by Robyklebt » Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:38 pm

The screen shot is accurate in the sense that it shows what that page shows.

But it doesn't give the necessary information fully: For that they need the screen shot from the flash version. Since as I've just shown you, the new version isn't complete. And it's obvious that some of the money you earned is "missing". But that's necessary to figure out how much your tax was before the bug-using.
Kraftsystemrevision! Include the distance!
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Re: Bug using finance bug 18.03.2021 (Idéfix fantasticos Flolandria OLCycle waerl)

Post by Robyklebt » Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:17 pm

Yes, exactly what was needed.

And I'm clearly helping the FPC here, since as you've realized too now, the new version didn't include the youth riders in it's total.

So now the FPC can see that you used 3'94'0330 on youth riders since then. Is that correct?
That then would mean that you had around 1,1 million in cash before the bug using?

Which should help them figure out what your team value, total capital was before you used the bug. Which then should help them figure out how much you'd have to repay.

See, wasn't so difficult. And with me helping you along it even went faster than it might have been if you'd waited for Gipfel or others to answer. You being a busy busy man, you might not have found time until tomorrow!
Kraftsystemrevision! Include the distance!
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Re: Bug using finance bug 18.03.2021 (Idéfix fantasticos Flolandria OLCycle waerl)

Post by Robyklebt » Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:33 pm

What exactly is the shit I spread here?

Look, if you didn't want me in the discussion, all you really had to do is not mention me, slander me and provoke me. But it seems the temptation was so big you couldn't resist.

You made this thread personal with your unprovoked attack in your opening post. For once assume responsability for your actions.

Now of course I would be happy to apologize for any insulting/provoking comment you object by me, before you posted your paragraph about me. Filled with slander and wrong info. But well, where and what are these things?


Btw, if you wonder why I have such a low opinion of you, just look at this little exchange from your race:
Idéfix: and too many bugs here. Was on new version so harder to check too
CT-P O H U I: no it's not Schart
Idéfix: truz. Coe. But i needed to sell these riders in all cases. Bug or not
CT-P O H U I: bug was one day only
Team-Mojabahs: ahhh
Team-Mojabahs: help?
Schartner Bombe: and you all think thats a fair way??
Idéfix: truly had no time, hace a watch on my races.the last month. Mostly connectzd 5 min/race excepted on weekends
Schartner Bombe: ;-)
RS Coesitz: But I understood your post in another way, Ide. You wrote that you did not see it at your first rider, but then used it for the other 3 as you saw it.
CT-P O H U I: c'mmon Ide,you really want us to belive that you after all this time spent on rsf you dint't realised it is a bug?
Specifically this:

Idéfix: and too many bugs here. Was on new version so harder to check too

Now, I read this as "I was on the new version when I sold my riders". Which seems to be the most logic, common sense reading of that sentence.
The problem with that is... how do you sell riders on the new version? I can't. No market that actually shows any riders, just the link (for me at least). Please tell us how you sold riders from the new site. This seems to be another case of Idéfix not being truthful. Unless of course with that sentence you didn't mean "at the time of the sales", but at some other times, which wouldn't be really relevant in the discussion you were having.

Nice to see you cooperating so fully and truthfully.
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Re: Bug using finance bug 18.03.2021 (Idéfix fantasticos Flolandria OLCycle waerl)

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:10 pm

OK, please stop the off-topic here.

Here is back to topic the complete calculation and fines proposed by me for now. Hoping for other FPC members and especially the one that takes all decisions to agree and vote quickly...

For transparency all info here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Thanks for all who helped with calculations. I am doing everything I can to help the game stay fair! :-)

In fact after the discussion, I think FPC members should get some allowance for their volunteering. Might be unpopular to want an allowance for oneself, but it is a shame if others call the volunteering a "job" and it is also a shame if we have to spend so much time just because a few others behave unfair.
GIP MASTERPLAN
Gameplay: Flexible Min-Tact. Improve Sprint System. Windkante.
Marketing: Re-attract old players. Advertisement. Social Media.
New Players: Fair Start Budget, New Tutorial.
Fairplay: Improve FPC features, Fair Prize Money Disribution.

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Re: Bug using finance bug 18.03.2021 (Idéfix fantasticos Flolandria OLCycle waerl)

Post by Robyklebt » Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:01 am

The offtopic lying continues...
But in all cases, just remember. Harassment = 100k. Insults = 100k. Multiaccounting < 100k. Winning using team attacks < 30k, and no cancel of palmares/give back to the real moral winner. Using bugs in IS = 0 fine. Benefiting from downhill pavé bugs = nothing. Using a bug with no intention to use it for a benefit, but because I planned to sell the riders around that moment (only 3 riders really sold because of that, but not the 1st one) = more than 5M ? Really, you consider this game has a fair treatment between players? Or you are influenced by the insidious Donkey?
The amount of lies this guy manages to pack into a few lines stays impressive. From ignoring all the fines over 100k handed out so far to complaining about actually having to pay back the money he got , But there was no intention to use the bug for a benefit! Really :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Kraftsystemrevision! Include the distance!
Basics reform: Give blue a chance!
Don't punish bugusers. We all have to use bugs, since most of them are declared as "features"!

Robyklebt
Posts: 9986
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:50 pm
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Re: Bug using finance bug 18.03.2021 (Idéfix fantasticos Flolandria OLCycle waerl)

Post by Robyklebt » Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:02 am

Btw, why is waerl dropped from the inquiry?
Kraftsystemrevision! Include the distance!
Basics reform: Give blue a chance!
Don't punish bugusers. We all have to use bugs, since most of them are declared as "features"!

Hansa
Posts: 947
Joined: Wed May 19, 2010 8:27 pm
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Re: Bug using finance bug 18.03.2021 (Idéfix fantasticos Flolandria OLCycle waerl)

Post by Hansa » Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:28 pm

Robyklebt wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:02 am
Btw, why is waerl dropped from the inquiry?
because if you chekc transaction log his rider wasnt sold for 5% taxes
Hansa

est. 03.08.2009

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