Team Reset

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Gipfelstuermer
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Re: Team Reset

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Wed Sep 13, 2023 12:41 pm

Alkworld wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2023 8:27 pm
I'm still a friend of making the divisions smaller, then also those other ideas make more sense, e.g.
- go down to Div 6 / low div transfer market with a reset
- inactive teams go down to Div 6 automatically ("inactive" would have to be defined)
This. Yes.
Alkworld wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2023 8:27 pm
For the new teams, forcing them to spend their money wisely I also like and it would now ( = after the latest TM changes) be easier to implement, we could have such restrictions for the first X races, only allow money wasting later. Then experienced resetters can buy what they need, while the newbies will have teams they make money with.
But not in favor of that. Seems unfair to me to "restrict" new teams. That's not how you motivate anyone to play the game. If you think, they need more advice, give them proper advice and not restrictions. For example:

1) Improve the manual. We did a lot of work on that already but can be continued
- Is the info for new teams on how to create a team (on the team-page) enough?
- Are the automatic teams balanced now?
- Do we need translations?
There is a whole thread for that. Contribute there.

2) Create a tutorial. I have started some work on that. It's more about "how to ride a race" and some other things had to be prioritized so it's far from being finished... But if you want to help new teams, a tutorial would be great.

3) Include more forum-links. Currently it's hidden under "More". Not ideal. So at least we could provide some links to important threads like the Mentorung-Thread, maybe the German Anleitung etc...

Just ideas, as I'm sure new teams need more help/advice before they need to be restricted.
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Re: Team Reset

Post by Alkworld » Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:54 am

Robyklebt wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2023 12:00 pm
Where is the appropriate thread for divisions etc? Can't find it...

Short here my opinion then: (I can write a much longer but not necessarily more informative post whenever I find the right thread)
-Keep the same number of divisions
-Don't forget that the market is conceived for the divisions as they are now. The 278 youth riders (if the number is still the same, not shown anymore?) that are on at any time, are for the number of teams we have in D1-5 now. That should then be cut, so longer frequency between new rides appearing.
Alkworld wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2023 8:27 pm
I'm still a friend of making the divisions smaller, then also those other ideas make more sense, e.g.
- go down to Div 6 / low div transfer market with a reset
- inactive teams go down to Div 6 automatically ("inactive" would have to be defined)
That means staying at 20 millions for start and reset?
20M can be reduced IMO.
About the market, it was designed for 5 full divisions (even 4 originally?), so at the moment we already have more riders on the market than originally planned due to low number of teams. What we could do however is to dynamically adjust the generation of riders for the auctions depending on the number of teams eligible for the auctions.

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Re: Team Reset

Post by Alkworld » Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:02 pm

Now implemented:
- automatic relegation to Div 6 in case of reset
- only three riders with reduced price (< 90%) can be bought (reintroduced, disappeared with Flash)

Coming soon (probably with month change on Nov 1):
- automatic relegation to Div 6 of inactive teams ( = no races, no points) at the end of the month
- resizing of divisions (exact sizes to be discussed)

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Re: Team Reset

Post by IDF » Tue Sep 19, 2023 4:29 pm

Btw the.market on d6 is still with the old fonctionality? With a refresh every 3-5 (even more) days? Or like the current d1-5 ?
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Re: Team Reset

Post by IDF » Tue Sep 19, 2023 4:48 pm

Another reflection :

A guy resets, no matter his division. He goes to d6, ok.
He'll grind, moving higher considering the low teams active so even by being totally shit.

Having a shitty team, due to the riders bought in d6 , he will try to change his line up in order to improve.
Ok but taxes are quite heavy so easily so he'll stay with these low riders.
With that rule, you avoid the possibility for a(n almost) newcomer to grind properly with a decent line up.

I don't speak about very old/experienced/top managers who'll start from the bottom, don't worry.
But that is a problem for guys who'll start clearly for a first time by training his own youngs. Especially if his first line up (who introduced him to the game) didn't give the possibility to make decent cash.
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Re: Team Reset

Post by Alkworld » Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:14 pm

IDF wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 4:29 pm
Btw the.market on d6 is still with the old fonctionality? With a refresh every 3-5 (even more) days? Or like the current d1-5 ?
Yes, slightly weaker riders, but regular refresh without auctions.

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Re: Team Reset

Post by Alkworld » Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:42 pm

IDF wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 4:48 pm
Another reflection :

A guy resets, no matter his division. He goes to d6, ok.
He'll grind, moving higher considering the low teams active so even by being totally shit.

Having a shitty team, due to the riders bought in d6 , he will try to change his line up in order to improve.
Ok but taxes are quite heavy so easily so he'll stay with these low riders.
With that rule, you avoid the possibility for a(n almost) newcomer to grind properly with a decent line up.

I don't speak about very old/experienced/top managers who'll start from the bottom, don't worry.
But that is a problem for guys who'll start clearly for a first time by training his own youngs. Especially if his first line up (who introduced him to the game) didn't give the possibility to make decent cash.
Not 100% sure what you mean, but we'll make the divisions smaller, so they make more sense. Currently, we have roughly 100 active teams (teams with points and races this month), but 260 spots in Div 1-5.

See also above:
Coming soon (probably with month change on Nov 1):
- automatic relegation to Div 6 of inactive teams ( = no races, no points) at the end of the month
- resizing of divisions (exact sizes to be discussed)
So Div 1 to 5 (or maybe only 4) will contain mostly active teams.

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Re: Team Reset

Post by IDF » Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:52 pm

Not 100% sure what you mean, but we'll make the divisions smaller, so they make more sense. Currently, we have roughly 100 active teams (teams with points and races this month), but 260 spots in Div 1-5.
I mean , i fear that this rule could create a bigger gap between old and new teams.
When i mean " new teams" i mean as my example said a guy with around 100/175 teams who wants to build a team with full youngsters after discovering the game with a random line up.

He'll try to grind the div, one by one but will find a limit "thanks to" his others riders that he needed to have 9 riders.
He could struggle a little bit later on if his guys are weak or having an hard way to make money.
And maybe needs to reset again... and having the same problems later on probably. He could fall into a loop.
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Re: Team Reset

Post by Robyklebt » Tue Sep 19, 2023 8:43 pm

OK, don't want to be too annoying, but somehow don't get it. Doesn't seem to make too much sense to me.

First off, are we looking for a permanent solution or a temporary one? Or a semi-permanent?
Alkworld wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:02 pm
- only three riders with reduced price (< 90%) can be bought (reintroduced, disappeared with Flash)
This not really about reset anyway, but still have a question, are you sure it was 90% and not 85%? I'm not a specialist at all on that, but Hansa seems to have a pretty good grasp on stuff like that, maybe he knows? Or maybe the old FAQ or something from the pre-flash version helps? (I think you've taken that stuff offline, at least the money thing, but normally you should still be able to access it?
IMO just what it was before was is good, just would have assumed it's 85%, but as I said, i don't actually know. And if it was 85% but you think 90% is better, that's ok too (I guess, haven't thought about it yet)

The reset stuff:
Alkworld wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:02 pm
- automatic relegation to Div 6 in case of reset
Here I don't really get the point to be honest. Seems more a very temporary solution to a problem that I don't really get. Very temporary see below.
Alkworld wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:02 pm
Coming soon (probably with month change on Nov 1):
- automatic relegation to Div 6 of inactive teams ( = no races, no points) at the end of the month
- resizing of divisions (exact sizes to be discussed)
In the end these 2 seem to have the same goal for me? But then why 2 needed? Just one takes care of it and of the already implemented one too.
- resizing of division, I would have thought something like 5 division a 25 teams make sense, what happens then? As I would have guessed, according to you we have around 100 active teams per month. So all inactive teams are swept to D5 anyway. Then there's always some who stop, Escarteam for example seems to have stopped already, so overall we would very likely have enough teams to push all the old inactive teams down to D6. Might take longer than just D5, but if we make it 20 teams per division, then it should be solved. Then the first one, automatic relegation for inactive teams becomes moot. The resizing takes care of it. At least that IMO should be the goal of the resizing. Now of course we head into the offseason, so probably fewer teams will be active as is often the case, but still, it could, should be enough to have the inactive teams down. But middle-term the game should keep growing again, mostly because as far as I know it's still free right now? (With my lifetime 100 Euro license (the deal is way too good really) I don't really know..).but the first big reason for the stagnation simply was the money. As long as it's free, it will keep growing, some advertisement would help of course (but it's free, so no money for that, I know)

- automatic relegation: Apart from what I wrote above, it seems overly harsh. For people that just take a 1 month 2 month break. Busy, sick, not in the mood, come back 2 months later and find themselves in D6? See Escarteam, he's in D3 going to D4 right now, but 0 points 0 season races, so he would be in D6 already now? Or just end of the month? What if he comes back in early October? He might not appreciate being in D6. But more importantly, the resizing should take care of it anyway. So why is that needed?

And the same for the already implemented one, by resizing the divisions, you get rid (mostly) of the inactive teams in D1-5. The teams that have 0 money or just a few millions, not enough to build a team. The ones that need a reset. Then you simply restrict the reset to where it used to be, D6+. (Or was it D5+? seems illogical, but don't remember)
It worked before, when we had full divisions, reset is for beginners that aren't happy with their team, reset if for struggling teams in D6. It's not for D3, D4 that simply didn't plan well, those teams don't need an easy way out. No reset.


So:
Resizing of divisions
Restrict the reset to D6+

I see no need for the already implemented rule or the inactive teams down to D6 rule.
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Re: Team Reset

Post by Alkworld » Tue Sep 19, 2023 10:10 pm

Robyklebt wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 8:43 pm
IMO just what it was before was is good, just would have assumed it's 85%, but as I said, i don't actually know. And if it was 85% but you think 90% is better, that's ok too (I guess, haven't thought about it yet)
I also only guessed, if it was 85%, I can easily change that. But 90% was the auction limit, so I thought it was 90%
Robyklebt wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 8:43 pm
Alkworld wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:02 pm
- automatic relegation to Div 6 in case of reset
Here I don't really get the point to be honest. Seems more a very temporary solution to a problem that I don't really get. Very temporary see below.
IF the reset becomes restricted again, then it's no longer needed, but it was easy to implement anyway. For now, considering the meaning of "reset", IMO it makes sense to start at the bottom (where long gone teams should anyway be)
Robyklebt wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 8:43 pm
But middle-term the game should keep growing again, mostly because as far as I know it's still free right now? (With my lifetime 100 Euro license (the deal is way too good really) I don't really know..).but the first big reason for the stagnation simply was the money. As long as it's free, it will keep growing, some advertisement would help of course (but it's free, so no money for that, I know)
It's still free and no plans to change that.
Robyklebt wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 8:43 pm
- automatic relegation: Apart from what I wrote above, it seems overly harsh. For people that just take a 1 month 2 month break. Busy, sick, not in the mood, come back 2 months later and find themselves in D6? See Escarteam, he's in D3 going to D4 right now, but 0 points 0 season races, so he would be in D6 already now? Or just end of the month? What if he comes back in early October? He might not appreciate being in D6. But more importantly, the resizing should take care of it anyway. So why is that needed?
With teams dripping down the divisions, there'd always be a fair amount of 0 points teams on the bottom of the divisions. Like that, it just goes faster. As a plus, farming gets limited a bit with inactive teams being at the bottom.

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Re: Team Reset

Post by Hansa » Wed Sep 20, 2023 8:37 am

from the FAQ:

Riders that were sold by a team and appear on the Division 1-5 market are also sold in auctions. For these riders the minimum bid is 85%. When the rider's price has reached this limit, the rider stays on the market. The price then continues to decrease with different speed, depending on their age, down until 50%. Riders under 85% can be bought by "buy-now".

so should be 85% for named riders.

2nd if we put a limit on riders below 85% to buy we should give an option to buy a rider at 85% instead of below 85%
so if you want a rider but you reached the limit you can still buy the rider at the non reduced price then.
Hansa

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Re: Team Reset

Post by Alkworld » Wed Sep 20, 2023 10:45 am

Hansa wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2023 8:37 am
from the FAQ:

Riders that were sold by a team and appear on the Division 1-5 market are also sold in auctions. For these riders the minimum bid is 85%. When the rider's price has reached this limit, the rider stays on the market. The price then continues to decrease with different speed, depending on their age, down until 50%. Riders under 85% can be bought by "buy-now".
OK, then there's still a "bug" in the auctions. They only go down to 90%, I think
Hansa wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2023 8:37 am
so should be 85% for named riders.
2nd if we put a limit on riders below 85% to buy we should give an option to buy a rider at 85% instead of below 85%
so if you want a rider but you reached the limit you can still buy the rider at the non reduced price then.
We just reintroduced the limit, so getting back to status quo. But I like the idea of being able to buy at 85% (or 90%?), if you're above the limit. That would be rather easy to implement

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Re: Team Reset

Post by Robyklebt » Wed Sep 20, 2023 4:17 pm

Damn, we didn't even need Hansa, just need to learn where to look....
Alkworld wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2023 10:10 pm
With teams dripping down the divisions, there'd always be a fair amount of 0 points teams on the bottom of the divisions. Like that, it just goes faster. As a plus, farming gets limited a bit with inactive teams being at the bottom.
I don't see the problem with teams dripping down the divisions. The problem is when they don't, as it is now. With the planned resizing of divisions, that problem is solved. The "problem" remaining is the dripping down, Div 1 to 6 is 5 months. Why is that a problem exactly?
They earned their way up, let them enjoy their slow way down.

Question: Does no points mean no points in a month or no current points? Meaning I take a break for a month in October, have points from Sept, will I go down to D6 at the month change? While I still have points from Sept. Or only end of November? (Don't celebrate too early, no plans to take a break, just an example) I assume the latter, but just to be sure.

Problems with this fast relegation

-Potentially people who just take a break, but plan to come back find themselves in D6. Could happen to somebody like Carrera, who has a few months at 1 or so races. Mosca for a while, now he seems to have stopped completely. Even somebody like FL has some very low races month, oh, even 1 at 0. Preceded by 2 months at 1 race. 0 0 and that's enough to go to D6? Admittedly those teams will be around D4-5 anyway most of the time with tighter divisions, so no real change, but what if an active D1 team takes 2 months off to go cycling in Kyrgyzstan like my cousin P.? (he's would be too impatient for this game anyway though)
-Riders from D1-5 potentially end up in D6, while right now they would in D1-5
-It's a way to get around the reset restriction (I assume it will be only D6+ again)
-Some teams seem to be convinced that the D6+ market is better than the D1-5 (Manghi mostly, maybe others). A shortcut to get to their preferred market.

As for the farming. Does c4f actually have a farming problem? Farming in the sense that one team buys riders for another team? Sell them later, for the other team to buy? If it's the same owner, same IP or suspicious, as in VPN IP should take care of that. If it's 2 friends, not. But, how does this limit it?
IMO it doesn't.


Scenario A:
Team B buys the max of youth riders, rides a few races a month, cheap salary, try to stay in D5. Once the riders are 24-25 sells them and Team B buys them. Same as now.
Scenario B: Team B buys the max of youth riders. Doesn't ride. Down to D6. A bit before it's time to sell, ride, move up to D5, sell. Possible now too. Nothing changes.
Scenario 3
Team B rides, when the time comes to get those other riders, 2 months (I assume), down to D6. Needs a sacrifice. Not possible now. BUT:
D1-5, you put a 25 year old 74-80-72-50-55 with 45 reg on the market. Chances are somebody else wants him too. Auction, he's on the market a while. He's seen, there's competition for him.
D6+: Sell him, then there is a anti-farming randomizer in place, when the rider appears on the market, it isn't immediate. But if Team A knows that now Team B sold him, he will be on the lookout. While the other D6+ teams are ignorantly cleaning their toenails, he can concentrate on the market, checking regularly. Chances he gets them are rather bigger than in D1-5.

With the smaller more competitive dripping down divisions (I said now above, meant the same, just smaller divs), scenario A+B are possible, and scenario D.
Team B buys, doesn't ride. Down to D5, sell. if you sell them at 24-25 the farming team needs to be a D1/D2 team that stops for it to work. If you start at D3, you have to ride a bit to stay in D1-5 as well

So you're exchanging this scenario D with scenario C. Scenario C necessitates a 2 month sacrifice, but then has higher chances to actually get the rider(s) in question.
But that's mostly assuming team B is a D1 or D2 team, which isn't all that likely. The more likely scenario is that it's a D5 team, in which case the fast relegation doesn't change anything compared to now (the future now, smaller divs) but the fast relegation makes scenario C possible.
Is this really limiting farming? Or is it even making it easier?

But actually I don't really think we have a farming problem, so the farming discussion is really rather a hypothetical one.

As for the dripping down, for me the potential problems, shortcut to a D6, to reset, to that market are a bigger negative than a team going down from D1 to D6 in 5 months.
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Re: Team Reset

Post by Robyklebt » Mon Oct 23, 2023 8:25 am

Hm, maybe there was another thread that fit better, but in the end I write here:

What will happen here now exactly?

Reset in what division, what money, how much money do starters get?

Connected to the announced restructuring of the divisions of course, that still on for November 1st? And what will it be exactly?
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Re: Team Reset

Post by Alkworld » Wed Oct 25, 2023 7:10 am

Robyklebt wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2023 8:25 am
Hm, maybe there was another thread that fit better, but in the end I write here:

What will happen here now exactly?

Reset in what division, what money, how much money do starters get?

Connected to the announced restructuring of the divisions of course, that still on for November 1st? And what will it be exactly?
Until now the following is implemented:
- Resizing of the divisions with 100 teams in the upper 5 divisions
- automatic relegation to Div 6 after reset
- limit of reduced price riders reintroduced
- no change of money after reset yet (i.e. still 20M)
- no change of division where reset is allowed

On the last two points, the discussion slowed down, so nothing changed yet

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Re: Team Reset

Post by Robyklebt » Tue Oct 31, 2023 5:09 pm

Alkworld wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2023 7:10 am
- Resizing of the divisions with 100 teams in the upper 5 divisions
Would have been nice to know in advance how exactly it will be... 16-18-20-22-24? No promotions this month, some promotions?
But well, now we can just wait until tomorrow to see it.

Alkworld wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2023 7:10 am
- no change of money after reset yet (i.e. still 20M)
- no change of division where reset is allowed

On the last two points, the discussion slowed down, so nothing changed yet
Well, if the discussion slows down maybe it's because everybody said what they wanted to say...
I wasn't happy with the original introduction of the 20 millions not only because I think that it's not a brilliant solution for anything, but also because it was a "night and fog" action... was just there without any discussion.
Now we all had the chance to discuss, at some point then of course you (as in however you 3 decide stuff) need to take the final decision. See what we users think, see if there's any good ideas (mine are usually the right solution of course) and decide.

On the second point though I don't really think anybody in his right mind ever objected to only allow it in D6, once there are only 100 teams, all active ones in D1-5.

But ok, if you want more discussion I can just restate my opinion later on....
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Re: Team Reset

Post by Alkworld » Tue Oct 31, 2023 6:06 pm

Robyklebt wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2023 5:09 pm
Alkworld wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2023 7:10 am
- Resizing of the divisions with 100 teams in the upper 5 divisions
Would have been nice to know in advance how exactly it will be... 16-18-20-22-24? No promotions this month, some promotions?
But well, now we can just wait until tomorrow to see it.
That is exactly how it's now set, with 3-4-5-6-7 teams relegated (including the inactive ones). Actually I wanted to have a page in the manual showing that (always with current values), but didn't manage to do so before the month change.

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Re: Team Reset

Post by Robyklebt » Sun Nov 05, 2023 10:47 am

Ok, let's do this step by step:

Reset possible in D4, while being one of the top 78 teams at c4f makes no sense.
The financial side of c4f works quite well (so of course we need to play around with it senselessly), it's a minor part compared to the races, that's good like that. But it should play a role. By allowing resets in D4 you minimize the "penalty" for bad financial planning extremely. D3 team that wants to try to risk all to win whatever? Big minus? Ok, sell everything, down in the same month, next month reset.
Reset in D6, not higher, don't see how this could be in any way controversial.
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Re: Team Reset

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Fri Feb 23, 2024 3:34 pm

Robyklebt wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2023 10:47 am
Reset in D6, not higher, don't see how this could be in any way controversial.
Up this thread and this Donkeyposal. Agreed with it and it seems uncontroversial after the Division Reform. Seems it was just forgotten?

And is it enough? On the one hand, if Reset is only possible in Div6 that means successful teams will have to wait a little bit before they can reset. On the other hand, with the Div Reform, relegation to Div6 can be quite fast, so some teams could still plan a stupid expensive team, financially ruin it, then stop playing until they are in Div 6 and then reset. So if that process is too fast, it might not be the ideal scenario. So maybe we need to go for Reset in D6 and additional measures to make things bullet-proof? I am thinking of a higher reset lock, not for newcomers, but maybe depending on the number of races for example.
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Re: Team Reset

Post by Radunion » Fri Feb 23, 2024 9:27 pm

Maybe remove the automatic relegation of inactive teams that sold all their riders. Base relegation in earned points instead of riders in the team would help as well.

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