Weather, Fantasy races

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Robyklebt
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Weather, Fantasy races

Post by Robyklebt » Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:15 pm

Not sure where to write this, but I try here.

The weather: Can that be improved somehow? The problem when designing a fantasy race right now is: we don't know when it's going to be raced, so what weather do we chose? No clue. this week we have a bit of everything, summer, spring, fall, desert, extremely wet and cold, etc. Some of it might be correct, some of it not.

Is there any fairly easy way to improve that? Not to much work but that improves the weather we have?

Haven't really thought about it much, only idea I have right now is:

We don't chose the season anymore when making a race, only the location. Then leso writes some magic things that add the season automatically.
Of course then we need more locations, Right now we often chose Europe something even if it's not in Europe, after all there really is only Europe there. But for a race in NZ in Dec automatic "Winter" wouldn't be perfect of course, the clever superprogramm of leso then of course would recognize that "Oceania" or "Aus-NZ" in dec is summer. Basically would need many many more locations, not only the different Europes, but the other continents as well. Less precise outside Europe of course, East Asia, South East Asia, South Asia, Central Asia, middle East, something like that enough. No need to differentiate too much there, even if there are big differences in those areas as well.
Even better, but more complicated maybe would be if we could/would have to put in the latitude. So a race in Beijing, East Asia, latitude 40 would have different weather than one in Guangzhou, Latitude 23.

Probably there are better solutions
Basically a small problem, if it's too much work forget it, if not, why not try to improve that somehow?
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Re: Weather, Fantasy races

Post by Cerro Torre RT » Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:04 pm

It's true there are some potentials for imporvement here, but it's not that easy.

Headfirst, it has to be paid attention to that there are a lot of climate zones that normally can not be ridden a race in in winter. So if, we should just split it into 3 periods, spring (February to May), Summer (June to September), Automn (September to January).

Now climate zones could be created, with a possibility to chose if it's by the sea, continental or a mixture. And an automatic chose of the right season.


But there are problems with that, and some of them fairly important to me. First, normally the seasons on north and south half are inverted, so we need most climate zones twice. Next, there are some quite special climates which do not fit in the european rythem in any way. For example The bolivian Altiplano, half year, dry, half year wet, temperatures nearly the same. But not more then 200 km to the east, tropic all year, 200 to the west, superdry all year. And especially in the campeonato, I didn't go with the real climates of the year by full knowlegde of that. For Patagonia, i have to choose summer (northern winter), because winter there, no way to ride, for Altiplano the time to choose is when we have summer, and i did so, i tool the best season for cycling the year has, no madder if it's not the time when we ride it. Because if not, the climate in most regions of the Andes is like you can't ride there.

So by now, i do not choose any weather by where it is on the map, but only by if the climate of a zone seems apropriate to me. If trying to cope with all that by different climates for regions, you will need so many different ones that i doubt that would raise the average quality of the weather beeing chosen, because it's just to much you have to create and you can select of. Having the correct year-cycle splits up a lot of climate zones in so many different regions that it will get very difficult to handle that. By now, i don't have no idea how to solve that in an apropriate way.

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Re: Weather, Fantasy races

Post by lesossies » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:00 am

This problem is well known and I thought about an automatic system too, but I had not enough time or it was not so much important that I change it, maybe in winter.
But I´ll take your good ideas in consideration if you have some.

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Re: Weather, Fantasy races

Post by Robyklebt » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:57 am

It's really not that important just a bit bothersome. And Cerros points all correct.

Still try:

Designer put in the latitude and longitude. Somehow then lesos script automatically accesses a databasa (legally if possible..) that shows the monthly averages for the closest weatherstation. Rainfall, average max temp. average min. temp. etc. Then automatically sets the parameters.. obviously the possible max temp above the max average, the possible min temp clearly above the min average since that is at night usually, chances of rain etc. Only problem would be the wind, doubt they have averages for that on cool climate sites... Maybe let the designer put in the wind.. somehow.. including likely directions, not that it would have a practical effect right now, but maybe in some years.
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Re: Weather, Fantasy races

Post by Cerro Torre RT » Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:25 am

If something like that could be made, we have to take care about the hight, as we look at all our climates to be at 0m.

If tried that detailed, with an exact selection of the location, we could think about creating such a database on our own. It's a work that has to be done only once, and you can split that work on quite a long time span. Wind data could be added where we find them, otherwise the organizer should do so. The important thing is that there is an easy access to that database for users that don't want to spend much time caring about the weather.

Furthermore, with a self-made database we can lock certain seasons of some regions. For tours like the Campeonato or the december tour, another "exchange" season is taken. For one day races, it could be automatically displayed to leso which races he can use in the next month and which not. We can include the highest point of a race into that, so for example, a coast race from Malaga to Sevilla in Winter is ok, a climb to Sierra Nevada can not be used in winter. By that, we can also avoid those 0°-races by taking care of what happens in the mountains if crossing the highest possible passes.

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Re: Weather, Fantasy races

Post by Robyklebt » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:26 pm

Ok, that's not what I meant actually.

The creating our own database (over a long time) is the other way I was thinking about. But not so convincing somehow, my China races for example, I would be creating a new entry in the database for almost every race, but well... they would all be for probably less than 5 races in the next 10 years.

What I meant with database was just that leso uses some existing site, don't know, www.climatefreaks,com if it exists.
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GengisKhan
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Re: Weather, Fantasy races

Post by GengisKhan » Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:11 pm

Or... we could change the module. Don't give names to the climats, but the editor could choose:
_ lower and higher possible temperature
_ probability of rain or snow
_ strongness of the winds

Somtehing like this...

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Re: Weather, Fantasy races

Post by Cerro Torre RT » Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:05 pm

@petitsinge: I know that wasn't what you thought about. But what you mention is something else of what i thought about, too.

I thought about a Database that is predeterminded, not filled over years by creating races. Splitting the whole world into a grid and link every piece to a certain climate zone. So some guys have to sit down and say ok, i do South America, Roby does eastern Asia, and a month later i go on with another continent and so on until it's finished. We determine everything, temperatures, rain percentages, all in the seasons and so on. Depending on our input, a lot of local climates could be implemented. When everything is done, the database can be implemented, like a race creator types in a point on his route with degrees of latitude and longitude and database tells: this is your climate. And by creating that one, we can add al that specific RSF shit like for example locking a climate zone for the winter so that leso gets a note automatically "nonono no use of that race for december only from may to september", change the climate a bit so it's adaptable to our altitude temperature rule, or even create a specific Altitude-temperature-rule for some climates. You can add the thing "at that altitude in this climate zone not in winter, but at the coast it's ok" and a lot more crazy stuff no not-RSF-weirdo would ever implement into a database.

The bug negative point is that it is a huge junk of work to build it, but once done, it can solve nearly all problems until the climate catastrophe. And i don't now if that work is worth it.

@ Ghengis: Yes that is possible, but more or less it passes completely the discussion. This would only provide to pay atention to every local climate IF the race creator takes care (and i doubt that in many cases). What we discuss about is how we can make it possible that there is the correct weather set in the change of seasons even when the race creator has no clue when in the year his race may be in the calender. And just to be free to enter fixed weather data by free chosing of numbers, that doesn't help in that direction.

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Re: Weather, Fantasy races

Post by NoPikouze » Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:06 pm

To make a simple system, you have to choose only the region when saving the race (europe oceanic, continental, mediterranean, and some other possibilities for strange regions or high altitudes). Tropical rainforest should not be important though, no way you can have a race there...

And for the season of the year, there can be a mechanism to select it automatically. Or someone does it manually, but a mechanism shoult be simple.

This way, every race gets the weather according to the period where it is programmed, and according to the region of course.

Dunno if I'm clear at all, I feel like I'm writing very bad english here, sorry.
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Re: Weather, Fantasy races

Post by Cerro Torre RT » Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:34 pm

Not necessarily, a race has to be inside a tropical rain forest to have the same climate.

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Re: Weather, Fantasy races

Post by lesossies » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:32 pm

I think I´ll take the Nopik way in a first time.

But the geographical solution with coordinate and per internet actualized weather should come in a far or maybe not so far future, we´ll see.
I already spoke about this possibility with Buhmann and he likes this idea too.

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Re: Weather, Fantasy races

Post by Cerro Torre RT » Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:27 pm

I'd need some help to figure out how climate currently works, because I have to know to predetermine the climate I have to expect for my races.

How I understood what the Great Ape wrote, that the weather is forever determinded by the weather of the country's capital. Is that completly correct, or complete correct, or partwise correct with exceptions?

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Re: Weather, Fantasy races

Post by Hansa » Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:35 pm

it´s mostly correct but at some tours leso change the whether from the capital to a city near to the race because in the bigger countries is bad to take capital whether
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Re: Weather, Fantasy races

Post by Cerro Torre RT » Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:41 pm

And is there a way that allows me to determine that reference place in bigger countries.

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Re: Weather, Fantasy races

Post by Hansa » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:24 am

i think onliest way is to ask leso if your race is in the calendar
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Re: Weather, Fantasy races

Post by lesossies » Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:40 am

Cerro Torre RT wrote:I'd need some help to figure out how climate currently works, because I have to know to predetermine the climate I have to expect for my races.

How I understood what the Great Ape wrote, that the weather is forever determinded by the weather of the country's capital. Is that completly correct, or complete correct, or partwise correct with exceptions?
For now, it is correct with exceptions. It means: Weather of an important town of the country (capital) and sometimes a near city of the race, which I manualy give.

In future, I want it the opposite way: Local weather for almost all races and capital weather if no local weather is accessible.

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Re: Weather, Fantasy races

Post by Cerro Torre RT » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:27 pm

Well, nothing against you, but I'd wish to choose the location of weather data on my own for some races, especially in Patagonia. The reason is that any automation is nearly bound to create mistakes. For in southern Patagonia, there are just no important city that I would expect do deliver weather data. And even if there is one, especially in the Andes, the weather can change heavily (from quite dry to really wet) within like 30 to 50 km. For those reasons, I doubt the availibility of accurate weather data and therefore would wish to be allowed to set an oldfashioned climate zone on myself, or, if you have a list of locations which weather data can be used from, a city that may be half around the world, but has similar weather (which, in case of southern Patagonia, is probably very hard to find)

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Re: Weather, Fantasy races

Post by lesossies » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:41 pm

I could get the weather for Ushuaia, Rawson, Esquel, Trelew, Zapala, Port Stanley a.o. cities
Individual weather could also be possible but maybe a lot of work.

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Re: Weather, Fantasy races

Post by Cerro Torre RT » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:56 pm

well ok, If small cities like those are available, it might work. I'll check for those if they are suitable for all conditions, but bet they are. May I add it to the race description which of those cities I would like to be taken (and so you delete those parts of the description if the race is put into the calender) ?

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Re: Weather, Fantasy races

Post by lesossies » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:17 am

Cerro Torre RT wrote:well ok, If small cities like those are available, it might work. I'll check for those if they are suitable for all conditions, but bet they are. May I add it to the race description which of those cities I would like to be taken (and so you delete those parts of the description if the race is put into the calender) ?
It could be a possibility for one day races, but not for tours, I dont look or change the description for these .
Better we communicate togtether when your tour will be programmed and I adapt the weather infos or you get the tool to adapt it yourself.

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