Suggestion for the offseason calendar

[Robyklebt]

I meant november of course, seems obvious And then you write so much because of the mistake

Admit that it seemed strange... You provoked me to write a novel.

I don't really know if that would be good for the races ?! Probably most people will ride only one hard, turning the other one into an easy-classicsprinter race.

Good point.

Comments on the FL-RKL race proposals?

And where is LIzard??? That's one guy I thought would comment, dammit.

[NoPikouze]

1.) Sachsen Pavés from Monday to Friday as it was during the last years.

Agree/ no prob

2.) off season classics addings to Roby:

- Züri Metzgete in Oct./Nov.
- Pavés de Noel in Dec.
- add a race in the southern hemisphere in January, e.g. Tour de Volcan or similar. Rhodos might be a good choice too.

Let's make it GP Zurich then, imo... "Real" date (for the last pro editions) were begin of october... Wrong timing for us though. Maybe 7th november... Oh no weather problem. Well, date needs to be decided, but ok for Zurich. PavéNoel, just forgotten. And the last one I missed something, I guess.

3.) climate problems:

- Especially the European races in December and January are critical. Thus, use the fantasy races or the races that take place in the southern hemisphere for Dec./Jan., except LUX. I think it's even interesting to ride one of the off season classics with extreme weather, but not all off season classics. I would put f.e. Bolkow, Preston earlier in the calender and perhaps add San Franciso as off season classic in Dec.

Repeating stuff again ?

In an ideal calendar actually no fantasy classic would be in october IMO. But if we want to save some of our old winter classics, we have to have a fairly high number there, agree, but let's keep it after the end.

Agreed, but it doesn't seem to be a problem anyway at this point !

If now for example the Tour du Jura is kicked

You really want to kick Jura out

Ideally we would have 2-3 cat 3 races in november and december, an addional 5-7 cat 2... but since we're in the first year of the real weather, plus we never were close to those numbers before either, no need to 'force' too many classics in now. In theory it should be like this; somebody likes a race, nominates it in the fantasy classic thread... if nobody complains leso does it... practically it seems to have become NoPik, FL and the Ape decide what to propose to Leso... well, finally a high quality committee at least So let's just see if we find races we like (other guys still welcome with proposals of course, and let's try to distribute them as evenly as possible from November to January. Without forcing it and trying to reach the numbers I proposed above, just stuff that seems really good. (Volcano IMO really good because it's for sprinters in theory, but could be difficult to time it right with the downhill, plus classics where sprinters have a chance are few anyway, in the fantasy season)

Also agreed. I have to look at last 2 years races a bit. Probably the weather problem will be... a problem.
Anyway, most of the races i want to nominate are my own

[Robyklebt]

Ok, not much happening here anymore...

Let me recapitulate: Basically done, respectively 'we' agree:

- Old fantasy classics, wrong climate: All mentioned, incl proposals for when. Up to Leso then to decide when exactly they are.
- Old ones or new ones, with the right climate: 3 old ones, cat 3 proposed, 2/3 new ones proposed cat 2, seems ok, could be 1-2 more, but actually would work, we don't need to forcibly fill it just to have stuff, let's rather keep an eye on new cool races and propose them for 2013!
- Swap Pavé-Sachsen Pavé: Approved it seems. Good.

Open:

- Tour du Jura: Open. Use an old version? Kick it? New designer? My opinion still: 1. Cut (to come back if ZL comes back, no problem) 2. old design 3. new designer
- Dec Tour runner up in January? No opinions there at all it seems. And I don't really have one either.... sometimes pro, sometimes contra. But since nobody has an opinion that maybe means keep the status quo?
Short +/- from the ape:
+ Reward a second dec tour designer.
+ Better stage race than the real ones. (Hopefully)
- Closes another spot, where other fantasy stage races could be ridden... like this there is no spot for another 7-10 days "main tour" really, sometimes somebody designs 7-10 day tours, like this... really no place to put them anymore.

Anyway, what does leso think? And the rest of course.


Ah, new idea, not really, had it years ago, but only post it now

Designers day "Cup". Easy idea, hard to explain.. mmh, how to start. Ok, it's similar to NoPiks World Tour, or OLs and Lizards "Winter world tour", but different.

Ok: 2 days each in November/December/January. On these days there are 6 different one day races. Each race is only offered ONCE. Designed by 6 different designers. Who are the designers? I say:

-lesossies: Not only does the calendar but this year has designed lots of races too
-Woddel: While a lot of the other designers took a designing break, he did almost the whole calendar by himself.. (ok, with leso help)
-Aux: Still designing a lot
-OL: Same as Aux, maybe less than last year, but still designing a lot of the real races
-RKL: See Aux and OL, less then in the past, but still there

Nr 6 I actually don't know, who else has designed a lot of real races this year? Or any? But for me clear, if the idea is accepted, then if they want, the real race designers get a spot for sure.

Then each of these guys chooses a time, or is given a time spot.9-11/14-16/17-19/20-22/23-24
Let's just say leso gets 20-22. Then on these 6 dates there will be a fantasy race designed by lesossies sometime between 20-22. And one by Aux for example at 23-24. etc. And the designer then has to keep a ranking in the forum. So Leso would design 6 fantasy races, whatever he likes (but the climate should work...), he offers them at 20-22. And it's only raced then, and as cat 1 of course. Same day, a Woddel, a Aux, a OL a RKL, plus a ?? race, all raced just once too.

Brilliant idea me thinks. Any thoughts?

[Vea Olio]

I have a possible draft for october 2012:
01/10 Vuelta La Palma
02/10 Binche - Tournai - Binche - Mémorial Frank Vandenbroucke Belgio 1.1 2012
03/10 Sparkassen Münsterland Giro Germania 1.1 2012
04/10 Gran Premio Città di Peccioli - Coppa Sabatini Italia 1.1 2012
04/10 Paris - Bourges Francia 1.1 2012
05/10 07/10 Tour of Algerian Climb
06/10 Giro dell'Emilia Italia 1.HC 2012
06/10 Piccolo Giro di Lombardia Italia 1.2 2012
07/10 Gran Premio Bruno Beghelli Italia 1.1 2012
07/10 PARIS - TOURS Francia 1.HC 2012
07/10 Paris - Tours Espoirs Francia 1.2U 2012
08/10 Asmara Road
08/10 Radovljica - Tolmin
09/10 Nationale Sluitingprijs - Putte - Kapellen Belgio 1.1 2012
09/10 13/10 Tour of Beijing Cina WT 2012
10/10 Goreme Cobblestone Challenge
14/10 Tour de Vendée Francia 1.HC 2012
21/10 Chrono des Nations Francia 1.1 2012
For the moment the draft is this, but if you want to change some races, contact me

[lesossies]

Designer Day, why not, I would design some races.
6designers 6times/day 6days the 6th day in the week. sounds 6y.

Jura first canceled.
Old classics for november:
Preston, Brescia, Wallis et Futuna, Lanzarote.
Maybe : Awaso, Okinawa, Ernakulam, San Marino and Colombo

[Robyklebt]

Designer day might sound 6y, but...

1) I'm not convinced myself anymore... NoPik, after I explained to him what I meant half convinced me it's shit.
2) Not sure anybody really understand what I meant. Seems leso did, but then he was always smarter than NoPik! (Buh said I have to be nice to you now) I repeat anyway (one of my hobbies) 6 races by 6 different designers in one day, all raced only once. Each race part of that designers own "cup", so one designers races always +/- 1 h at the same time. 6 days over 3 months or so.
3) Of the proposed designers OL is off, Woddel seems to suffer from burnout after the Andes... doesn't look likely to find 6 designers somehow

Your indian Cup actually looked good though, if it was planned for this... maybe a lot of sprints, but pff, so your Cup maybe would have been won by a sprinter, no problem with that.

Anyway, if you think you can find 4 more designers for 6 races, ok ok, I would be in with the Coupe des Singes, otherwise maybe next year.


Other questions:

1: Stage races. Noticed you use KwaZulu.. had thought the non coordinates ones are out, mmh, seems not, ok. But how is the general situation, are your coffers filled with small tours in ok weather or would you need more? And what length? A short advertisement somewhere might fill your coffers!
2: Since you use old ones: I demand the McMurdo one!!!!!!
3: One day races for winter in the south? New ones I mean... see nr 1, short advertisement somewhere might fill the coffers if more are needed.

[lesossies]

"Coupe des Singes" the name sounds very well, but the modalities should be as good as the name
I liked the KwaZulu Tour and I dont have a lot of choice, that´s why I took it.
I allways need good one day races ..... and good 3-5 days tours.

[Woddeltown Team]

Leso I can't find NRW in the November Calendar
I want my Bratwurst

[team fl]

Okay, I know, it's stupid complaining, but:

All tours in December forsee a climber or at least a rider with a more than decent mountain skill as GC favorite:
- Japan Tour
- Halakela Tour
- Iljen Tour
- Tour de Laos
- Sri Lanka
- Guadeloupe (incl one flat ITT)
- Shalom Tour (incl. one huber friendly ITT)

Even if there are stage wins possible for sprinters and classics too and even two time trials (Guadeloupe, Shalom, the only one besides the WC btw...not counting Japan), this seems a bit too much weight on the climber side. I know the problem that there is not a big amount of small fantasy tours around and probably it's too late to chance something anyway. But I just wanted to suggest, generally, to look for a bit more balance in the future for the offseason calender. Maybe there could be some fixtures in NoPik's proposal also for small tours...

[Robyklebt]

Agree on the balance thing!
Disagree on putting together climbers and Hubers and LEupolds (who have a good chance in Shalom) But yes, it's very very unbalanced in favor of climbers this December... but well, ooks like the vault is fairly empty... so... ? Tell Takashi to design. Too late to kick one of the already programmed stage races, form is set probably, but still open spots and more choice for leso in January. Or then for next Nov/Dec/Jan!

[lesossies]

Sorry, it was my error.
I was dreaming EAT win the contest and I need a parallel tour for climbers.
When I realized my mistake, it was too late to change a lot.

I wanted 2 5days tour and I had 6 5days-tours in reserve.
one was in South India ... no chance after Kerala
one with too short stages
one too old
and so on...

[team fl]

I was dreaming EAT win the contest and I need a parallel tour for climbers.

I was dreaming too

[team fl]

It's time again to discuss the offseason calendar.

stage races like Sachsen Pavés in October, Tour des Pavés in January, Andes, December Tour and RSF classics like Züri Metzgete, Mosell Cup, Boucles de Wallis et Futuna, etc.

[team fl]

To do it in NoPik style, I adpated his excel sheet from the starting post for Oct until Jan 2013/14:



- October seems to be full already, Jura not needed

- Novermber still needs some little tours next to the Campeonato, maybe three 4-6 days tours, at least one "light" tour

- December was a pure climbers month last year. Like in November some more little tours are needed. At least one should not be for climers. Besides that, December still needs one day races for the beginning.

- January looks nice so far. At the beginning a shortened runner-up dec-tour could be ridden, like EAT last year. Then the TdP followed by the start of the "real" 2014 cycling calender with TDU and San Luis. Also here like in december one or two short tours and one-day races for the beginning are needed. In the end we already have "real" races. I was just to lazy to look for the dates...

[luques]

- October seems to be full already, Jura not needed

- Novermber still needs some little tours next to the Campeonato, maybe three 4-6 days tours, at least one "light" tour

- December was a pure climbers month last year. Like in November some more little tours are needed. At least one should not be for climers. Besides that, December still needs one day races for the beginning.

- January looks nice so far. At the beginning a shortened runner-up dec-tour could be ridden, like EAT last year. Then the TdP followed by the start of the "real" 2014 cycling calender with TDU and San Luis. Also here like in december one or two short tours and one-day races for the beginning are needed. In the end we already have "real" races. I was just to lazy to look for the dates...

Great work

In October sure no tour needed, with Hainan we complete the month.

In November i would say that at the beginning a flat tour would be nice, there was a never scheduled Baltic Chain Tour (maybe too short), and also a Norway Arctic Tour.

In December one tour more is enough or what? We have december tour and Xmas tour, i would say one at the start! Maybe a Santa Lucia Tour? (Don't know other nations what do, but in some cities in Italy on 13th December we celebrate Santa Lucia)

And now let's go to do some single races

[team fl]

Just remember the weather conditions in November and December... Maybe a Norway Arctic Tour would not fit that well. Thus, Tours in the Southern Hemisphere are preferred for the off-season.


btw, category:

Andes, Dec-Tour: 3

Jan-Tour (Dec-Tour runner-up): 2

RSF classics: 2, except: GP Brescia, Fleche Jurassienne, Luxembourg, Bolkow-Bolkow: 3

[luques]

Just remember the weather conditions in November and December... Maybe a Norway Arctic Tour would not fit that well.

Ooops

[olmania]

Lots of small tours were created during the past weeks, we can choose the 1 or 2 small tours needed from these ones

[Pokemon Club]

Hum can be nice to list tours leso has at his disposition. Like that we don't have the same problem than last year when there was a majority of climbers tours, and it will lets time for designers to draw quietly some others tours if we need it.

[olmania]

Hum can be nice to list tours leso has at his disposition. Like that we don't have the same problem than last year when there was a majority of climbers tours, and it will lets time for designers to draw quietly some others tours if we need it.

You seem to have lots of time today so, that's a perfect mission for you

[Pokemon Club]

Hum can be nice to list tours leso has at his disposition. Like that we don't have the same problem than last year when there was a majority of climbers tours, and it will lets time for designers to draw quietly some others tours if we need it.

You seem to have lots of time today so, that's a perfect mission for you

Time ? Between Les chtis, TPMP and l'ile des vérités on TV I have no time !!

[luques]

Hum can be nice to list tours leso has at his disposition. Like that we don't have the same problem than last year when there was a majority of climbers tours, and it will lets time for designers to draw quietly some others tours if we need it.

You seem to have lots of time today so, that's a perfect mission for you

Time?

Before Le Singe will say "there is no time"

I say you that i have

But i think i will need a month to see all the tours of all the players...

STOP you convince me, i start NOW, even if i know will be useless

P.S. I will consider only 2013 Tours

[Robyklebt]

There is no time? How August, the ape would never say that in September.

What he says here is: It's a complete waste of time.

Leso is more than able to put in decent stage races in the off season. Last year december? Yep, not really good, leso said why too. MIscalculation about the winner, then not aaalll that many stage races in reserve. Too old, without "real weather" and stuff like that. Me thinks he should have more stages races from which to chose from, and not repeat the mistake of assuming in advance that one stage race will win the vote.
Plus by checking everything now and already propsing stuff, we "cut" the new tours that will be designed from the running already somehow. And while last year we were in a designing drought, this year there seems to be much more designing going on.

IMO we can just ignore the stage races, leso will do allright.

One day "RSF classics" on the other hand.... we still don't have all that many... to balance out the high cat tours a bit, offer some more cat 2 and cat 3 races. And no, I don't mean we just create a one day race and announce that this should be a classic... Let's propose races that we liked from last year... But since nobody remember, maybe would be nice to pay more attention this year.

the ape meanwhile goes on an egotrip and proposes and RKL race.
Novo Hamburgo-Caxias do Sul.
Couldn't ride it last year.... so don't know if it's any good, but that's one of the few RKL mass production races I was actually looking forward to race last year. Plus Ari won it, so it must be high quality.
Will go through the Nov-Dec-Jan list again in the coming days to see if I remember any other races I liked...Anyway, propose that RKL race for december 2013 as cat 2!

[team fl]

I nominate the following races as RSF classics (cat. 2) for the offseason calender:

- Asmara Road by Gengis (13 Oct 12)

- TTT Islamabad by leso (5 Nov 12)

- Tamworth Circuit Race by RKL (7 Nov 12)

- Port Louis - Mahebourg by Radunion (8 Nov 12)

- Soweto - Johannesburg Reconsiliation Race by RKL (11 Nov 12)

- Coupe de Guadeloupe by RKL (13 Nov 12)

- San Benito - Mata Galpa by Huns (15 Nov 12)

- Dangriga - Santa Elena (16 Nov 12)

- Kisoro - Kabale by RKL (28 Nov 12)

- Clasica de Cali by RKL (4 Dec 12)

- Wellington Harbour Cup by RKL (6 Dec 12)

- Windhoek to Okahandja by Huns (12 Dec 12)

- Colombo - Agampodigama by Falkenbier (5 Jan 13)

- Novo Hamburgo - Caixas do Sul by RKL (26 Jan 13)

[Radomiak]

I like playing nominations games, for cat 2-3 i nominate:
- Coimbra GP 10.11
- San Benito - Matagalapa 15.11
- Classica Terras de Bouro 17.11
- Oaxaca - Huaujapan 20.11
- Kisoro - Kabale 28.11
- Trofeo Balestra 01.12
- Mt Moorosi - Mafeteng 08.12
- Mahebourg - Port Louis 10.12
- Tecugicalpa - Salama 18.12
- Colombo - Agampodigama 05.01
- Arriaga - Tuxtla 12.01
- Tuvirett - Tablabalt 16.01
- Marmara race 20.01
- Zakynthos 25.01
- Novo Hamburgo - Caixas do Sul 26.01