Suggestion for the offseason calendar

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NoPikouze
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Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by NoPikouze » Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:44 am

Hi all,
I was thinking about the fantasy tours and classics for the winter period. I think it's possible to put in a couple of "long" fantasy tours, which might be nice. And of course some winter-classics that we can find in the database or create (remember, be careful about the weather).

Image


First thing, don't forget that Lombardia is on 29/09 this year...

As you can see, I've put the european-fantasy-classics together at the end of october. It shouldn't be too cold yet.
Parallel to the ultra specialized tours, we can have other short tours for teams who have no interest in the main tour (Pavés, Jura, Andes).
The Campeonato and the December tour can both have 16 days, or 15, that is flexible of course, no reason against it.
Between those 2 it's possible to have a 10 day fantasy tour. Only problem is that it's on 2 different months (formplanning).
On the other hand, the december tour should be more allround as the other tours. No reason to give the possibility to ride 2 or 3 parallel tours instead. 1 is enough. That's why they should overlap 1 day if there are 2, for example. December tour is the main race, don't make it a "sacrifice" to participate!
In january again there can be a long fantasy tour, or shorter, whatever, it's open.

Anyway, the proposed races (green) are not fix at all, and the nr of days can be changed of course. It's just there too show how many possiblities there are for all kind of tours! If you want to make them shorter, no problem.
Last edited by NoPikouze on Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:59 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by Robyklebt » Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:24 pm

Excellent Kouze

But: Hangzhou... the new UCI WT idiocy. It's planned for 2012 already, even though we haven't heard much for a while... Probably safe to keep a place for that for the moment. Might end up not being raced (hopefully...) but... we'll see. 17-21.10 the planned date.

Then: Like the idea to put the old "fantasy classic" at the end of October. Hadn't really thought of that.

Long Tours... IMO Andes and Dec should keep its length, not get longer. And both cat 3
Then, you propose 2 10 day stage races... Not sure I like it. I would probably prefer having the runner up dec tour as January tour. So a third long one, but then for the rest more shorter ones...

Ah, your "classic?"... mmh, opposed. IMO classics shouldn't be declared as classics. So new races that are declared to be classics and cat 2 by their designer or somebody else. Should be races nominated by others after racing it. This winter IMO we won't have any classics. Since nobody bothers about praising races that he hasn't designed himself it seems. Or few people at least.
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by NoPikouze » Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:58 am

Up up

Anyone interested in discussing the offseason calendar ? Before getting all excited about some specificalities without even discussing the global thing... :geek:
Of course in my initial planning I never meant that we HAVE TO put a tour in every spot, and certainly not that they have to be as long as possible. Just showing that it would be possible.
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by team fl » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:53 am

For me, the most important off-season stage races are:

- Tour des Pavés (October)
- Bejing (October)
- Jura (October)
- Campeonato de los Andes (November)
- December Tour (December, obviously)
- Christmas Tour (December, obviously too, if Christian Christmas is meant)
- Sachsen Pavés (January)
- Tour Down Under (January)
- San Luis (January

My suggestion for stage races:

In October we have:
- Bejing
- Tour des Pavés
- Southland or similar? (9 days last year)
- Tour du Jura
- and as Pikouze suggest a short stage race (3-4 days)

In November we have:
- Campeonatos de los Andes
- two stage races around one week (last year: Akropolis, Estérel, each 6 days)
- 3 short stage races last year around 3-4 days -> two would be enough in my eyes. Not parallel if possible.

In December we have:
- December Tour
- Christmas Tour
- last year, there was another two weeks stage race with Costa Rica, No Pik suggest a Nov/Dec tour of 10 days and a 8 days tour in December. - make it two one week stage races
- last year, there were 6 (!) stage races in December between 3 and 7 days. That's way too much in my eyes. -> make it 2 short stage races, 3-4 days.

In January we have:
- Tour Down Under
- San Luis
- Sachsen Pavés
- add 1 or 2 short stage races, 3-4 days.
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by Woddeltown Team » Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:08 pm

October
October seems okay, as the ape wrote, there is Hangzhou planned from 17th to 21st, but there are no more information at the moment.
Maybe we can keep some space for it. Also last year there was the Tour of Faso in October, maybe we can leave some space for that tour.
Or maybe we are including Hainan at the end of the month.

November
My suggestions for tours:
Beginning: Esterel
Middle: Campeonato, parallel Charkiv and a flat tour (3 or 4 days)
End: Akropolis, Tour of Rwanda (real race)
Should be enough

My Sugesstions for classics:
Fleche Jurassiene, Moselcupand Okinawa...and the rest...don't know.

I think a longer tour (nine or ten days) for the end of November and beginning of December is not necessary.
December okay for me, January also...may be he 2nd best of December Tour Competition for the end of December and the beginning of January.
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by Radunion » Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:25 pm

First of all we have to think how short the off-season really is. In October the last World Tour race end on the 21. (Tour of Hangzhou, whatever you think about the race). In the second half of January we will have Down Under and San Luis. So we should think about moving the Sachsen Pave. I know it is a traditional race in the game, but I think it should be moved before Down Under. The tour does not deserve direct competition of a real race.

Then there is the question what we should do if somebody manages to draw some real tours, e.g. from South America? With the limited information about the roads the take it is quite unlikely, but if the come the will come short term.

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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by Robyklebt » Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:54 pm

Agree with Radunion on the "what is the off season"?
It starts after the last WT race, Hanghzou in this case.
Then the season "starts" with Down Under.
Yes, there are more real races in between, but... more on that later. No, now... forget them, most of them. Many of our fantasy tours are just more fun to race. Vuelta a Tachira for example is real, and not a completely obscure race either, but the profiles usually are just "inferior" to our fantasy profiles. In my opinion. So I'd say... .ignore most of them, especially the long ones. And especially southland which has just the most idiotic profiles ever. Tour du Faso... some dirt roads usually, but only some, but still, how to sensibly simultate them here? Another pavé tour? Ignore it? Make it a series of *? Plus it's usually ______________________..... that's usually not even interesting for sprinter teams. I'd be for cutting it.. same for Tachira as I said, most of the time IMO the the profiles are just not very exciting. Yeah, that's the case for some important races too... but at least they are important, so of course ride them. But those rather unimportant 2.2, sometimes not even that (Southland if I'm not wrong was even only national something last year, or not even UCI sanctioned anymore) or sometimes still 2.1 but still just very local.... ignore them. I think we had Bolivia, Costa Rica both ones.. Chiapas too? Other stuff... but mostly the profiles were... boooring. Hainan.... pff... who'll design? Not me, but if somebody wants... of course a design like last year is worthless... in China on google maps etc the roads are consistently x00 meters off... chinese paranoia... there is a chinese site with the roads in the right place now I think, some chinese google earth like thing, but only for china.... tried to check that one out ones, had no idea how to use it... Until then, have fun with finding the roads on google earth through the clouds and all. The wild +15-10+18-5+16-8 like last year though is not worth having again... nothign to do with reality, if we want real races at least let's have them done properly.

Stage races:

IMO important first to get the main ones "fix"

After Hangzhou IMO the main, fix tours are/should be:

October
22-26 Pavé cat 2? Or even 3?
Then attention, 28 National championships (or chips as Buhmann likes to say.. :roll: ) So one day off before and after for the main tours!
- 30.10-02.11. Tour du Jura. But, ATTENTION, the designer has left RSF. ZL stopped... he might begin again later, but for the moment he said he doesn't really plan to restart, right now no more RSF-fever (will never understand people like that) no idea if he wants to still draw it... if not, yes, we could get a new designer. Or we could just forget it, in a way another pure climbers tour is a bit much if we have the Andes in November... let's wait and see. Don't really care, but no fantasy tour should be fix and save forever as a general rule. Nice to keep them, but in a way we could say, like in reality the Coppa Placci and x other races... sometimes they just disappear, even if they have a long history. A comeback in a year wouldn't be out of the question either. cat 2 if it's there? Or up to 3?
Here a well designed Hainan, 20-28 in reality, could be changed to 19-27 for the NC, why not?

November:
- Main: Andes. 14 days or 14 stages + rest day. so max 15 days. cat 3

December:
-Dec tour, hopefully 14 days incl. rest day again. cat 3

January: IMO it would be worth thinking about taking the runner up in the december competition as first tour of the year here, fix in the calendar...But there are pro and cons, I know

+ Reward for one more dec tour designer. We usually have close decisions, and usually there is more than 1 tour that actually would be fun to ride.
+ Better than Tachira and other early january alternatives
- Another main fix tour that closes the calendar for a bit shorter, but still longish 7-10 days fantasy tours...
- Another 2 weeks stage race that not everybody can ride.

Probably more.

Btw, in 2013 Down Under starts later, 20.01.

So... main stage races.... I'm for NoPik correcting his first post (that actually is very cool) at least the main real races on the right dates, see Down Under, 20-27, and put Hangzhou in.

Parallel "minor" races: Here I'd say let Leso do more or less what he wants... Would be nice if he doesn't "throw money" after the chicken who avoid the december tour and then score money like crazy in 2-3 parallel tours... The way leso did it last year IMO was ok, let the parallel tours overlap too... so last year there were 3 parallel tours to the dec tour, but only possible to ride 2. Good. Same for the January runners up tour, if that happens, and same for the Andes as well. But I wouldn't oppose a lot of smaller tours in the offseason in general. Not everybody can ride the main ones, let's have some 3-6 day tours, shorter ones as well, that more people can ride. And even in the time without main tour, why not have 2 parallel ones. Early november, late november early december for example.

ONe day races: The old classics. The "real weather, copyrighted by RSF, and they seem to enforce it, not even reality seems to dare to use real weather anymore, makes it a bit complicated. I like the NoPik solution to put them many of them at the end of october, Brescia, Bolkov, Mosella, Flèche Jurassienne... some could be parallel to Pavé/Tour du Jura.. Have to chose then... want the "classics" or the tours... sucks, grr, want both, but... If leso thinks it's too much... ok, cut a few... Flèche Jurassienne for example, the designer would survive it if the race dies... it doesn't bother him either if it survives of course.. So yeah, end of october or cut. Problem Letzebuerg at New Years... no clue.

Anyway, my opinion again: Let's first agree on the "MAIN" fantasy stage races, then bombard leso with our demands once we more or less have a consensus.

Edit: Forgot the Sachsen Pavé.. another problem due to the "real weather". Move it to January? In Sachsen? Brrr.....Ok, like Letzebuerg, no real clue what to do. later is difficult too....
Most logic would actually be: change position with the Pavé tour... the Pavé tour is pure absolute no connection with real roads fantasy... so that could be in early January.. .while end of october probably would work with Sachsen? Or... ignore the weather for Sachsen. Or move it into the real season... but when... see no real date where it would fit. Mmh, the september hole for the World Championships? But too close to the Pavé tour, plus too late this year anyway...
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by Radunion » Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:51 pm

Real weather in European winter could be a bad idea anyway. Give somebody the possibility to switch it off for fantasy off-season race. The alternative would be to have just races in the South. And I doubt that there are enough one day races in which my riders do not risk freezing to death.

Or should we include snow and ice rain in the game ...

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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by Robyklebt » Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:52 pm

Design races in the south is my opinion 8-)

But, good news. No Tour of Hangzhou in 2012!!! YES! Postponed to 2013!
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by NoPikouze » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:33 pm

I actually like the real weather thing... Go design somewhere it's survivable! ;)
Then the sachsen-pavétour switch, seems good to me.
Luxemburg, for that one I would suggest to keep it on 1/01. It will have it's own "legend" that way.

Fixing the main offseason tours, then the "classics" is the good way to go indeed (why not add some new fantasy classics? taken from the races we had during the last 2 years? If anyone is brave enough to make a pre-selection).
By the way, for the MAIN fantasy offseason stuff, I'd be inclined to give them hmmm cat.3 ranking. Cat.4 seems a bit too much. But 3, sounds good to me (Andes, DecTour, Sachsen/Jura, the old classics...)

If I have time later this week I'll make a new version of the calendar.
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by lesossies » Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:04 am

Lot of good ideas
Sachsen Tour in October would be OK if Libby want to design it again.

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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by Cerro Torre RT » Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:50 pm

Sachsen Pavés that close to the Tour de Pavés? Would prefer it in January.

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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by Robyklebt » Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:55 pm

The idea would be a switch.
REal weather in Sachsen in January. A problem most likely
Pavétour? Pure fantasy. Not a problem in January or February or whenever Sachsen was.
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by team fl » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:24 pm

pro switching Sachsen Pavés and Tour des Pavés.
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by Robyklebt » Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:09 pm

Oh, Pik put up the new version!

Excellent Pik!

Comments: October, forget Milano-Torino (that seems will not be raced once again) and Piemonte. Both in September before Lombardia! (If raced, in the case of M-T)
Then, Sachsen was always 5 days, no reason to make it longer I think. And, good for the NMs the 28, start on the 22, finish the 26, much better!

The Sachsen pavé-Pavétour switch official? Nobody complains, so seems ok? But would be nice to at least have an opinion from the 2 designers, or a sign that they know... Libby and I think for Pavétour Alk again?
But otherwise.... since nobody complains and leso doesn't oppose it.... seems good. But would have to put the Pavétour in somewhere then, anytime ok, weatherwise is no problem since it's "christmas island basically" :D Possible dates: Right after Down Under should be ok, I suppose Bessèges and stuff start later too next year, or before Down Under. But that depends on our (or lesossies) preference for what should happen there.

What about the nr 2 in the dec.-competition in early January? Any opinions on that one?

But have to admit it's kind of depressing here. Good work by NoPik, we can't ask for more, perfect to see how it could look like this year, some comments by a handful (a childs hand, a newborn's hand actually) of users, while the rest... doesn't seem to care. But some of them of course will care later on and whine around in the races and chats on how unfair the whole thing is... just write your opinion here?
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by lesossies » Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:15 pm

I allready asked Libby for the Sachsen tour. Should be OK.

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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by team fl » Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:23 pm

I like the idea to switch the Pavé tours. Especially because it solves the Weather (resp. temperature-) problem.
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by Robyklebt » Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:31 pm

FL, asking for comments didn't mean that you should repeat what you already said :D But ok, I agree that your opinion is worth saying twice, maybe even 3 times.
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by team fl » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:13 pm

Have I already written that it's a great idea to put the Sachen Pavés in October instead of the Tour des Pavés, which should take place in January instead of the Sachen Pavés? Good thing.
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by NoPikouze » Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:02 pm

I think I also agree with that :ugeek:

Furthermore I'd like to see the jura and other "classic rsf stuff" in the planning in the empty spots of october/november (before the campeonato anyway).

Or maybe we could have a vote for some new "classics". Even if nobody took care of pointing them out during the year(s), we can still select a couple of them and organise a quick vote or something like that. And than you put the "old rsf classic stuff" as cat3, the new as cat2 (this year at least), and it would be nice, imo.

We can also see a couple of free spots for "short" fantasy tours, but that's open to discussion anyway. Even if almost everybody seems to prefer tours to oneday races.
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by Robyklebt » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:29 pm

Jura you mean the Tour or the great Flèche Jurassienne?

One day races:


RSF classics:
November 11:

Mosellcup (Germany)
Boucles de Wallis et Futuna ( NO WEATHER PROBLEM)
Bolkow-Bolkow (Poland)
GP de Lanzarote (NO WEATHER PROBLEM)
Flèche Jurassienne (Switzerland)

Dec 11

GP Brescia (Italy)
GP Bielsko Biala (Poland)
Preston Blackburn (GB)
+ Sylvesterstuff, but no weather problem

January 12

GP Letztebuerg (Lux)

2 clearly stay, no weather problem. Up to cat 3 for them too? One January, one December? Both December?
The rest: Which ones popular enough to keep? Until when riding them ok weatherwise?

Bielsko Biala and Preston Blackburn in new after NoPik and RKL recommendation in 2010 btw! After relooking at Preston Blackburn not sure why actually my recommendation, but ok...

Keep all? Cut some? Leave Letzebuerg where it is, because we're used to that date?
BTW, I'm 100% opposed to cutting Brescia and Bolkow!!! (And Letzebuerg too) The rest... bah. If there is place, ok if not..
When? Is there enough space until the 10th of November or so? Much later really seems to late to me, weatherwise...

Disapperaed classics:

- Southern sun classic
- GP Fuscht (don't remember much about it, JPS race I think)

Let's cut Fuscht, missing designer, southern sun sounds good, depending on how far south it was (was in Spain I think.. but Andalucia or Tenerife. .don't remember.. .anyway, a bit later certainly seems possible, very nice.

Then we have a 3 proposed races in the other thread that were never repeated, 2 of them not in perfect places anyway, Canada and Turkey, the third one in Mexico I think, but had opposition, so best to forget those 3 I think (even if one was by the great ape, once I get praised, then this, pah)

So IMO of the old classics we have 10
1 could stay on it's date, Letzebuerg (why not, even if it's strange)
2 absolutely no weather problem whenever
1 smaller or no weatherproblem (Southern sun)
6, weatherproblem, would mean.... in a 2-4 week window in October-November



Looking at the Piklendar:

GP Brescia VERY early during the Andes, cat 3, could fit. (or too cold already?) Good to have to make as choose too btw. Brescia because it's most south of those...
Another one on the 4th, first sunday in November.
Another one End of October, 30 or so.
Another one during the Sachsen Pavé. Again, chose.
Another one around the 17th.

5 IMO no problem, probably possible to squeeze in a 6th? Yep, easy, just make Bolkow-Bielo a back to back affair... after all both in Poland, a polish 2 day classic thing. Too much in october then, we have real classics too? Don't know.


Any comments? Could have forgotten other "lost" classics of course or not seen them in the calendar last year.
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by NoPikouze » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:56 pm

Planning updated.

Yellow stuff: official races, should be almost correct now.

Blue stuff: Almost fix, standard rsf stuff.
-The long tours are blocking 16 days, they will be shorter (14-15?) but I don't know if they start on saturdays or sundays (or other), and anyway there should be a "restday" before their start.
-Sachsen pavés: could be ridden 1 day earlier, no big problem, it's only japan cup before. Then it would be monday-friday, which is maybe better than tuesday-saturday. But it's still nice to start such a tour with a fit team. Opinions ?

Green stuff: my suggestions for fantasy-classics.
- Tour de Jura. For me it's ok to keep this very short tour fix, even if there is no new design (ok, maybe somebody else could design it, but I wouldn't have any problem with keeping the 2011 or 2010 design). But since it's ultra-specialised, and not really updates, let's keep it parallel to the other specialised tour: sachsen pavés. Other opinions are welcome on this topic.
- 1 day races for october-november. Like this it seems to make sense to me. Weatherwise, Travelingwise, and timewise. I guess there is not much arguing to support my theory, anyway I'm too lazy. If anything is not ok, just write it with a decent reason.
- Lanzarote and Wallis. I actually think they could/should be on 6th and 8th october. The spots are there. And then we would have first the classic-season, then the big tour season, with other parallel stuff. Same as above, not necessarily meaningful, but "sounds" ok to me.

- Dec tour nr 2, could be in january if anyone agrees or disagrees.
- Tour de pavés, seems a nice spot there. Parallel to another tour then, but later is real season, and no spots seem open at first sight.


Another important point: As parallel races to the main tours, don't give the option to ride more than 2 tours after each other. If there is more stuff, please make it overlapping each other. If people can ride 3 tours parallel to andes ou dec tour, it's too much, too easy, too rewarding, and making the boycot of the main tours almost inevitable.

Tired now...
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by team fl » Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:47 pm

1.) Sachsen Pavés from Monday to Friday as it was during the last years.

2.) off season classics addings to Roby:

- Züri Metzgete in Oct./Nov.
- Pavés de Noel in Dec.
- add a race in the southern hemisphere in January, e.g. Tour de Volcan or similar. Rhodos might be a good choice too.

3.) climate problems:

- Especially the European races in December and January are critical. Thus, use the fantasy races or the races that take place in the southern hemisphere for Dec./Jan., except LUX. I think it's even interesting to ride one of the off season classics with extreme weather, but not all off season classics. I would put f.e. Bolkow, Preston earlier in the calender and perhaps add San Franciso as off season classic in Dec.
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by Robyklebt » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:53 pm

1) agree! NC on the 28 after all

2) yep. For Züri I would prefer it in-season though. IMO that would be a good option for the empty spots in early october.
Pavé de Noel can stay where it is, 'christmas island' anyway,no?

3) Like the Volcano one. Just what country is it, don't recognize that flag, grr.
Rhodos, like it less.
Then what about Santiago-Valparaiso? Was in December 11, didn't ride it, but it looks interesting.
So I'd be for adding Volcano and Santiago, Rhodos less convinced, but...


When:

To NoPik
IMO bad idea to put more in October, Lanzarote/ the 2 holes you proposed in early october. It's still the season, with more important races. And IMO it would kind of not be in line with what the goals of having fantasy classics is: 2 reason as I see it.

1) Have higher category (2-3) one day races even in the off season so that people who don't ride the tours have something that gives a bit more points as well.
2) Have higher cat. one day races in the off season so that we have a few "harder fought" one day races in the off season too.
Then having Lanzarote and Wallis and Futuna in October somehow wouldn't reach either of these goals.

In an ideal calendar actually no fantasy classic would be in october IMO. But if we want to save some of our old winter classics, we have to have a fairly high number there, agree, but let's keep it after the end. AND, IMO not wrong to make them parallel to fantasy tours either. If now for example the Tour du Jura is kicked, then parallel to the Pavé tour would be good. parallel to both, not really.

So I'd say, put Lanzarote and Wallis in November (like you did) or december/January! NOT in october, since weatherwise there should be no problem later. Perfect would be both at cat 3, one in November, one in December. Wouldn't want to cut the off season in 2... classics-Tours. Should be a mix. something for non big tour riders always there.

Ideally we would have 2-3 cat 3 races in november and december, an addional 5-7 cat 2... but since we're in the first year of the real weather, plus we never were close to those numbers before either, no need to 'force' too many classics in now. In theory it should be like this; somebody likes a race, nominates it in the fantasy classic thread... if nobody complains leso does it... practically it seems to have become NoPik, FL and the Ape decide what to propose to Leso... well, finally a high quality committee at least :lol: So let's just see if we find races we like (other guys still welcome with proposals of course, and let's try to distribute them as evenly as possible from November to January. Without forcing it and trying to reach the numbers I proposed above, just stuff that seems really good. (Volcano IMO really good because it's for sprinters in theory, but could be difficult to time it right with the downhill, plus classics where sprinters have a chance are few anyway, in the fantasy season)

Right now we have the following weather-ok races:

- Wallis
- Lanzarote
- Southern Sun?
These 3 could or should be cat 3

Proposed, with the "votes" in the back
- Volcano 2-0
- Rhodos 1-1
- Santiago-Valparaiso 1-0

Pik... how about coloring the classics differently? cat 3 color x, cat 2 color y?
And I actually would loooove to have the 2 polish ones back to back, without the recovery day!
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NoPikouze
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by NoPikouze » Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:18 pm

Robyklebt wrote:To NoPik
IMO bad idea to put more in October, Lanzarote/ the 2 holes you proposed in early october. It's still the season, with more important races. And IMO it would kind of not be in line with what the goals of having fantasy classics is: 2 reason as I see it.
I meant november of course, seems obvious :mrgreen: And then you write so much because of the mistake :lol:

Wouldn't want to cut the off season in 2... classics-Tours. Should be a mix. something for non big tour riders always there.
True.
Pik... how about coloring the classics differently? cat 3 color x, cat 2 color y?
Ok next time

And I actually would loooove to have the 2 polish ones back to back, without the recovery day!
I don't really know if that would be good for the races ?! Probably most people will ride only one hard, turning the other one into an easy-classicsprinter race.
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