Suggestion for the offseason calendar

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FSG Sattelpuper
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by FSG Sattelpuper » Thu Sep 15, 2022 1:35 am

Idea:

Speedy Gonzales Sprinter Cup (mainly Mexico (S.G. fastest mouse of all Mexico) but also Cuba, South USA or Central America possible).

4 or 5 flat stages with max. gradient 3, but these also only rarely, so that the Mo-value does not play a role, no pave.

In the long run, establish it as a tour right next to the Andes (Nov)! Of course only if it is accepted.


Special feature:
Always 8 riders
Start-. Intermediate sprint and finish point, if possible, in well populated towns.
No mountain classification!
Instead, there will be two continuous sprint classifications for the silver and golden Speedy Gonzales.
Only two riders per team are allowed to be in front of the peloton, other riders have to drop back.

The silver mouse will be awarded at a sprint classification between 50% and 80% of the stage. We use the HC mountain classification, the first 6 get a lot of points and money (5) (20/16k; 15/12k; 10/8k; 6/4,8k; 4/3,2k; 2/-), so the silver runaway mouse has its own classification and might be tempting for many teams. It might not only be interesting for escapees, maybe the peloton doesn't even let the attackers go or catches them up again before the classification, who knows what tactics will develop. The bonus for the mountain jersey also goes to the winner of the silver mouse, making it even more lucrative.

The golden mouse goes to the winner of the sprint jersey, here only the points from the finish sprint are taken into account, as there are no other intermediate sprints. In order to reward only the best sprinters, the stage designation should be either hard (top 12 get points) or TT (top 10). Possibly this would have the side effect that the flat sprinters (Fl 80/ Sp 70) would rather go for the silver mouse than for the back places in the finish sprint.

The way the whole thing is conceived now, nothing else would actually have to be programmed. It would be nice if someone could adjust the jersey colour, i.e. gold and silver, and then write at the top, instead of points and mountain, gold and silver. If it's easy to do, you could also change the HC labelling for the sprint to Silver or SSG (Silver Speedy Gonzales). What would be really good is if you could do the intermediate sprint like the finish sprint (300 metres and 30-second intervals).

I hope you like the idea, I would be happy about a feedback here. I could also imagine designing such a race.

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Hier noch die deutsche Version:

Idee:

Speedy Gonzales Sprintercup (vorwiegend Mexiko (S.G. schnellste Maus von ganz Mexiko) aber auch Kuba, Süd-USA oder Mittelamerika möglich)

4 oder 5 Flachetappen mit max Steigung 3, aber diese auch nur selten, sodass der Mo-Wert keine Rolle spielt, kein pave.

Auf Dauer als Tour direkt neben den Anden (Nov) etablieren! Natürlich nur wenn es angenommen wird.

Besonderheit:
Immer 8 Fahrer
Start-. Zwischensprint- und Zielpunkt, wenn möglich, in gut bewohnten Städten.
Keine Bergwertung!
Dafür werden zwei durchgehende Sprintwertungen um den silbernen und goldenen Speedy Gonzales ausgefahren.
Pro Team dürfen nur zwei Fahrer vor dem Peloton sein, weitere Fahrer müssen sich wieder zurückfallen lassen.

Die silberne Maus wird jeweils bei einer Sprintwertung zwischen 50% und 80% der Etappe ausgefahren. Wir nutzen dazu die HC-Bergwertung, die ersten 6 bekommen ne Menge Punkte und Geld (5) (20/16k; 15/12k; 10/8k; 6/4,8k; 4/3,2k; 2/-), so hat die silberne Ausreißermaus eine eigene Wertung und dürfte für viele Teams auch verlockend sein. Könnte ja auch nicht nur für Ausreißer interessant sein, vielleicht lässt das Peloton die Attackierer gar nicht erst weg oder holt sie vor der Wertung wieder ein, wer weiss, was sich da für Taktiken entwickeln. Die Prämie des Bergtrikots geht ja dann auch an den Sieger der silbernen Maus und macht sie so auch noch lukrativer.

Die goldene Maus geht an den Gewinner des Sprinttrikots, hier gehen nur die Punkte vom Zielsprint ein, da es ja keine weiteren Zwischensprints gibt. Um hier nur die besten Sprinter zu belohnen, sollte man als Etappenbezeichung entweder Berg (Top 12 bekommen Punkte) oder TT (Top10) wählen. Eventuell hätte dies den Nebeneffekt, dass die Flachsprinter (Fl 80/ Sp 70) lieber auf die silberne Maus gehen, als auf die hinteren Plätze im Zielsprint.

So wie das Ganze jetzt gedacht ist, müsste eigentlich noch nicht mal irgendetwas anderes programmiert werden. Schön wäre es, wenn man die Trikotfarbe anpassen könnte, also Gold und Silber und dann oben halt schreibt, statt Points und Mountain, Gold und Silver. Wenn es einfach zu machen ist, könnte man auch die HC Beschriftung beim Sprint in Silver oder SSG (Silver Speedy Gonzales) ändern. Was richtig gut wäre, ist wenn man den Zwischensprint wie den Zielsprint fahren könnte (300 Meter und 30 Sekunden-Takt) würde ja reichen.

Ich hoffe euch gefällt die Idee, über eine Rückmeldung hier würde ich mich freuen. Ich könnte mir auch vorstellen so ein Rennen zu designen.

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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by team fl » Thu Sep 15, 2022 9:32 am

FSG Sattelpuper wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 1:35 am
Idea:

Speedy Gonzales Sprinter Cup (mainly Mexico (S.G. fastest mouse of all Mexico) but also Cuba, South USA or Central America possible).

4 or 5 flat stages with max. gradient 3, but these also only rarely, so that the Mo-value does not play a role, no pave.

In the long run, establish it as a tour right next to the Andes (Nov)! Of course only if it is accepted.

(...)
I like the idea. Technically, the silver thingy would be the mountain classement (with one HC in the third quarter of the a stage) and the golden thing would be the points classement (most likely also the GC, but not necessarily).

I only have my doubts about the "only two riders for each team in front of the peloton" rule. Some players already have problems to follow the current rules. Special rules for just one stage race might be difficult to enforce. But I could be wrong and it works just fine, as it's plain and simple.

Jersey changes might be difficult too, esp. if it's parallel to the Andes. I don't know how difficult it would be to have parallel stage races with different jerseys, but I don't think it is feasible.

And for the number of riders: Would 6 or 7 riders be more interesting maybe? Less control, more chaos? :)

But in general, I am pro Speedy Gonales Sprinter Cup.
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Thu Sep 15, 2022 11:36 am

Ha! I am not the only one with crazy ideas for the offseason!

My optimistic view: Great idea to have a short sprinter tour established next to Andes!

Some good news also on the jersey: While so far the plan had been to implement that for Grand Tours, then for other World Tour races, then for other real races and maybe last thing to do it for fantasy races, it can be implemented relatively easily. So we just need a file from you using the wikimedia design that we use for all other jerseys, so it needs to look like this. And if we do it, we need to allow it for all fantasy tours which take place regularly. So Tour des Pavés and Andes designer(s) would be allowed to design custom jerseys, too. However, these shouldn't change all the time. So if somebody wants to do it, keep in mind that they should ideally stay the same for a couple of years (if not forever). We could also have some for December/January tour, even though these are different tours every year, so not sure how much sense it makes to have a December Tour custom jersey.) However, mountain jersey will remain to be called mountain jersey (but of course the KOM's can be on a flat road).

Fairplay Rules should be the same for all races, so no extra rule here, as explained by FL.

My pessimistic view: We do not yet have the numbers. With 40-50 players a day, it does not make much sense to have 3 streams of races (Andes, Speedy Gonzalez, One Day Races). So maybe it's something for 2023. Or it can happen in 2022, but not parallel to Andes, and then we move it parallel to Andes as soon as we have enough players in the game.
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by Robyklebt » Thu Sep 15, 2022 12:53 pm

IF we think we have the numbers, I'm all for this tour parallel. After looking at Bahama Mama while writing the last post after all realized that with the mountain finish on the last day it wasn't that great as a sprint tour next to the Andes, something more flat better. But actually that might have changed too now....

So again, IF we think we want to have something parallel, Speedy Gonzalez should have excellent chances still.

So something parallel or not?

+ Because 16 days Andes.... teams that don't have the riders for that, teams that don't want to ride it for whatever reason, should have something other than just one day races too. Especially sprinters (but see below)

- The number of active players. IN the past often from September/October on we started losing some people, real races, offseason not so much fun. But with the low numbers anyway there's not that many people that actually can leave :lol: And we have a few more than a year ago, but still, is it enough?
- Langkawi now looks possible in October (I blame FL for this) possibly Amissa Bongo in January (I blame FL again, but hope for San Juan) 2 Tours that will be full of sprint stages. Then the extra very sprint heavy tour becomes much less necessary.

What I'm opposed on principle of course is the establishment of one more regular fix specialized tour in the calendar. Pavé, Andes. Ok. Now sprinters? Next classics, where we have had attempts to get a pure classic tour fix in the calender before, fortunately thwarted. Then what, the great downhill tour? In the end it clusters the calendar and forces the designers to be less creative... but ok, if a majority ever decides to support that, ok ok, I'm beaten, but it's not the way we should go, specialized tours fix in the calendar.
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by Hansa » Thu Sep 15, 2022 5:59 pm

Sprinter tour parallel to andes sounds good. Speedy gonzales cup sounds cool too.

i dont like the idea with different rules for that but i like the proposal maybe have less riders in the tour.
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by Robyklebt » Sat Oct 08, 2022 6:57 pm

How is Speedy progressing? Speedy I hope. Less urgent than Andes, but the speedsters maybe would like to see what Speedy offers them too at some point.
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by FSG Sattelpuper » Sun Oct 09, 2022 1:58 am

Robyklebt wrote:
Sat Oct 08, 2022 6:57 pm
How is Speedy progressing? Speedy I hope. Less urgent than Andes, but the speedsters maybe would like to see what Speedy offers them too at some point.
Done

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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by cataracs » Wed Aug 09, 2023 4:32 pm

Now that the game isn't running I can complain about the lack of races for pavés riders.
We need Sachsen back! There are more active players now, so Sachen in October + Pavés tour in January would make sense.
Pavés specialized riders don't get much at all, not just tours wise but in one day races aswell so we need more....

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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Fri Sep 01, 2023 11:13 am

team fl wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 12:22 pm
Here is the 2nd draft then:
Overview like that planned by FL for 2023/24 off-season?

If no time, I can also try to produce a similar overview.
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by team fl » Fri Sep 01, 2023 1:53 pm

Gipfelstuermer wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2023 11:13 am
team fl wrote:
Tue Sep 13, 2022 12:22 pm
Here is the 2nd draft then:
Overview like that planned by FL for 2023/24 off-season?

If no time, I can also try to produce a similar overview.
Will do. :geek:
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by team fl » Mon Sep 04, 2023 9:22 am

did it :ugeek:

Offseason calendar version 1 is here.

Legend:

- yellow: real stage races
- red: real one day races
- blue: fantasy stage races
- green: RSF/C4F Classics

- red letters: real race on the wrong date.
Attachments
Offseason calender 2023-24 v1.PNG
Offseason calender 2023-24 v1.PNG (107.12 KiB) Viewed 475 times
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by Chemnitz Pro Cycling Team » Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:07 am

No Andes for me this year since I'm on holiday :-( But in total, the calendar looks good!

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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by Tukhtahuaev » Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:38 am

Looks alright to me. Lengths of the small tours are just to get a general idea and not set in stone, right? I would like one tour that's 6 or 7 days and not almost all of them at 5 days to have a bit more variety.

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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by Robyklebt » Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:54 am

Try not to have the c4f classics on weekends, less players still I guess.

Guangxi? Did you change that from Langkawi? Or was I dreaming when I thought I saw Langkawi?
Anyway, Guangxi, are we sure it's going to be ridden this year? Seems so right now, but never trust the Chinese. Ok, now open again unlike in 2022, but it's still China....
But ok, can be changed.

Parallel to Andes maybe another c4f classic, if we have more (didn't count) to give the Andes boycotteurs another "highlight". Seeing that we had shitloads of parallel tours for the GTs actually a second short 3 day tour might not be wrong either. Even if we don't really have the number, but we didn't really have them for the GTs either... Parallel to Dec tour: If 1 for Andes then 0 for Dec, if 2 for Andes then one for Dec. Dec should be much less specialized, open for everybody, so less parallel tours IMO sensible.

Just saw Tukhs idea: IMO with our low numbers 5 as longest cat 1 fantasy tour still makes sense. 3-5
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by Tukhtahuaev » Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:39 am

A 3 day tour would also be good. It just looks a bit boring to have almost every tour at exactly 5 days

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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by flockmastoR » Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:42 am

Will there be a second Speedy Gonzales Sprinter Cup edition? Kind of liked the general Idea, now we can really give away Gold and Silver jerseys
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by Robyklebt » Tue Sep 05, 2023 12:22 pm

Predictably the Donkey is opposed, and not being in charge of anything anymore doesn't have to mince words!

Against because:
a) while during the Andes a sprinter friendly tour is definitely warranted, it doesn't have to be a pure sprinter tour (on paper) every year.
b) it covers a spot with another fix your. With pavé, Andes, Dec, Jan we already have 46 days covered with fix tours. (My idea to suspend Andes until we have decent numbers again probably still won't be popular) Cover another spot(even parallel) and there's again less place again for small fantasy tours. So as usual I oppose it. If we had given all fantasy tours that others or the designer themselves wanted with some Luna classic tour, Bourgogne, Guadeloupe and others that I forget we would have around 0 new tours per off-season nowadays!

Say no to more fix tours! Yes to creativity with a chance to be programmed for designers!
Kraftsystemrevision! Include the distance!
Basics reform: Give blue a chance!
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by team fl » Tue Sep 05, 2023 12:45 pm

Tukhtahuaev wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:38 am
Looks alright to me. Lengths of the small tours are just to get a general idea and not set in stone, right? I would like one tour that's 6 or 7 days and not almost all of them at 5 days to have a bit more variety.
Tukhtahuaev wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:39 am
A 3 day tour would also be good. It just looks a bit boring to have almost every tour at exactly 5 days
Exactly. These fantasy tour spots are only place holder. 3-5 days I think is fine.
Robyklebt wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2023 10:54 am
Try not to have the c4f classics on weekends, less players still I guess.

Guangxi? Did you change that from Langkawi? Or was I dreaming when I thought I saw Langkawi?
Anyway, Guangxi, are we sure it's going to be ridden this year? Seems so right now, but never trust the Chinese. Ok, now open again unlike in 2022, but it's still China....
But ok, can be changed.

Parallel to Andes maybe another c4f classic, if we have more (didn't count) to give the Andes boycotteurs another "highlight". Seeing that we had shitloads of parallel tours for the GTs actually a second short 3 day tour might not be wrong either. Even if we don't really have the number, but we didn't really have them for the GTs either... Parallel to Dec tour: If 1 for Andes then 0 for Dec, if 2 for Andes then one for Dec. Dec should be much less specialized, open for everybody, so less parallel tours IMO sensible.

Just saw Tukhs idea: IMO with our low numbers 5 as longest cat 1 fantasy tour still makes sense. 3-5
It is Guangxi indeed. And yes, can be changed. After all, this is just a draft, a proposal, up for discussion.

The number of C4F classics is indeed a bit poor in the first draf, esp. when checking the number of C4F classics we rode last offseason. Best solution would be to leave it up to the calender guys, but I try to add more spots in the second draft. Also parallel to the Andes, as well as a very short stage race. 2 for Andes, 1 for December tour would be my suggestion.
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I support this idea :)
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Tue Sep 05, 2023 2:08 pm

Robyklebt wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2023 12:22 pm
a) while during the Andes a sprinter friendly tour is definitely warranted, it doesn't have to be a pure sprinter tour (on paper) every year.
b) it covers a spot with another fix your. With pavé, Andes, Dec, Jan we already have 46 days covered with fix tours. (My idea to suspend Andes until we have decent numbers again probably still won't be popular) Cover another spot(even parallel) and there's again less place again for small fantasy tours. So as usual I oppose it. If we had given all fantasy tours that others or the designer themselves wanted with some Luna classic tour, Bourgogne, Guadeloupe and others that I forget we would have around 0 new tours per off-season nowadays!
a) Just like Andes doesn't have to be 16 days of mountain arrivals, Speedy Gonzalez wouldn't have to be 5 days of short, completely flat sprint stages.
b) I wouldn't consider Dec- and Jan-Tour "fixed" in the same way as Pavé and Andes. The only thing that is fixed for them is maximum length but they are no tours favoring one specialty like Pavé or Andes. In fact it's in the rules that they should not be extreme tours.
flockmastoR wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:42 am
Will there be a second Speedy Gonzales Sprinter Cup edition? Kind of liked the general Idea, now we can really give away Gold and Silver jerseys
Since it was well liked last year (same number of participating teams as Andes), I think it can be included. Remember, it also was just 2 editions, so that can be a good compromise if we don't want too many editions parallel.
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by Radunion » Fri Nov 10, 2023 12:27 am

Let us discuss the future of the Andes. Riding it for the first time and watching some other editions it has become too extreme. The fields are often paralyzed by fear of losing riders and the inability to recover between stages. It might be fun if 2 or 3 strong teams battle it out, but we do not have so many teams that could field a high-class line-up for this kind of tour. I think it would be better to do it by design contest like the December Tour and drop the extreme tour requirement.

suggestion 1: Do a design contest, the only requirement is South America, and let the community decide how hard we want it.

suggestion 2: Improve the whole of the season tour contest. For example:
November: max 18 days, all continents allowed (if it is warm enough there)
December: max 14 days
January: max 10 days
The design competitions are independent of each other, recycling candidates is definitely welcome, but all 3 tours have to be in different regions.

This allows for extreme tours in other places and less extreme tours in the Andes to compete for places in the calendar. Just give us all a vote.

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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by cataracs » Fri Nov 10, 2023 1:18 am

I'm very against "contests".
The whole contest thing is shit and should never be used, even for December tour.

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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by Hansa » Fri Nov 10, 2023 9:42 am

i am also against contests.

because it takes up a lot of time to design tours and most of these tours then never will be ridden. we currently dont have super many designers and if we increase the contests the might not design much other races then.
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Fri Nov 10, 2023 9:45 am

Radunion wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2023 12:27 am
Let us discuss the future of the Andes. Riding it for the first time and watching some other editions it has become too extreme. [...] I think it would be better to do it by design contest
I agree with your assessment but not with the conclusion. Designing Andes takes weeks (if you want to do it well) and it is already hard to find one designer for it each year. So I doubt a competition would be very lively. Also, if you dont know whether it's going to be ridden, not sure that improves the design quality.

What we can do, is to discuss more in the forum, help the designer with feedback. I'm sure next year Schnugg will make it less extreme based on the feedback or it will be a different designer.
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by flockmastoR » Fri Nov 10, 2023 9:49 am

Radunion wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2023 12:27 am
Let us discuss the future of the Andes. Riding it for the first time and watching some other editions it has become too extreme. The fields are often paralyzed by fear of losing riders and the inability to recover between stages. It might be fun if 2 or 3 strong teams battle it out, but we do not have so many teams that could field a high-class line-up for this kind of tour. I think it would be better to do it by design contest like the December Tour and drop the extreme tour requirement.

suggestion 1: Do a design contest, the only requirement is South America, and let the community decide how hard we want it.

suggestion 2: Improve the whole of the season tour contest. For example:
November: max 18 days, all continents allowed (if it is warm enough there)
December: max 14 days
January: max 10 days
The design competitions are independent of each other, recycling candidates is definitely welcome, but all 3 tours have to be in different regions.

This allows for extreme tours in other places and less extreme tours in the Andes to compete for places in the calendar. Just give us all a vote.
I think there is reason to discuss the future of the Andes but I think this way you kill both the Andes and the December tour competition, when we obviously just have a problem concerning the Andes.

What I really like about the December tour, is that it is kind of a small offseason GT. A tour for everyone (in theory), sometimes leaning towards climbers, sometimes leaning towards more TT strong classics, stage chances for different rider types.

The Andes always was a special interest stage race but numbers of active players might not allow it any longer. I also agree that the current edition doesn't help in conserving the idea. But it is still the players that make the race. I just watch the morning and afternoon edition regularly. Morning is a nice race, Alk with a good classic armada, many normal climber teams (2 climbers, 1-2 good classics) riding reasonable. Afternoon complete disaster, stevens with the goal to drop every rider of other teams on first chance. Pathetic buying Nassouli while having a 79-80 classic, but that is just a side note.

I think we can discuss about the future of the Andes, but please don't kill good working stuff as collateral damage.
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Re: Suggestion for the offseason calendar

Post by Robyklebt » Fri Nov 10, 2023 2:15 pm

People coming around. Big D. proposed cancelling (temporarily, although by now I'm tending more and more to permanently (I know it want happen)) the Andes 3 years ago? Or 2?

The problem is simply participation. Afternoon has had low Andes participation for years, highlight last year with 1. Morning with 7 this year reasonably good, with the low numbers we have, actually good. Early evening and evening bad, like afternoon.
Last year was 5 1 7 4. So bad too.
Best participation in years feels like 21, , 7 7 9, no afternoon. That year, if I remember correctly, we did a "survey", write in the forum if you want to ride it and when, probably that's a good idea to do every year then? General numbers were lower then than they are now.

Anyway, the first Andes problem is first and foremost the low participation numbers. In the afternoon since forever, but now other times catch up. And I still think in this situation offering the Andes makes little sense somehow.

Competition? No.

Hard to find designers? No. You never had problems finding a designer and even now Hansa and RKL are 2 designers that basically have an Andes ready to design. (I'm not putting myself forward, have it ready since years, don't mind waiting or never doing it, especially since it seems every 2 years another one of my stages is being used, grr)
Gipfel himself showed some eagerness for another edition, if I'm not mistaken (but lacks time now) No problem for designers.
Kraftsystemrevision! Include the distance!
Basics reform: Give blue a chance!
Don't punish bugusers. We all have to use bugs, since most of them are declared as "features"!

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