Thought I could refrain from commenting more, but well, the ape wouldn't be the ape if he could.
Ok, what is the perceived problem? (By some, including me)
That many quite important races, mostly one day races, have fairly horrible participation. Main reasons: many editions of the race and many teams that prefer less important races.
Solutions?
Old ones:
- Make money in stage races dependent on the category of the stage races. See here
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=894&start=100#p46177 for my perfect proposal.
Since money often is a huge motivator to start in lesser races, and then very often it's exactly those high division teams that absolutely dominate those races, making it less attractive might a) have them not show up. b) have them show up with a weaker team. a) would then guide them to... either the more important stage race, or the more important one day race.
- Allow big teams with enough riders to start in 2 places. With some restrictions... minimum category something. Combined with a future change to an 8 rider standard. But to have that other things IMO need to change first. Here as well, big teams might start at Catalunya and GW and Harelbeke. With doubtful quality of teams maybe...
Mmh, old one too, but the one we are talking about:
Restrictions. or, since I actually like Radunions idea, less money for Eliteteams starting in unimportant races when parallel there is important stuff. Money restrictions. Details when to restrict what needs to be discussed. But first let's get something out of the way:
or another example from last month: there was Catalunya /Cat 4), not even a sprint tour. During the week was Harelbeke, so a high cat-team is not allowed to ride criterium international.
I completely agree with your smiley. I was rolling my eyes all the way to Hawaii in the east and Bishkek in the west (there was a good looking women there, so I stopped, that's why going east I went further). What an example.
FL writes: High category tours (3+) Low category tours 1/2. If x and y and q and z, then.... you're not allowed to ride the low category tour. 1/2. Your argument against this proposal is:
or another example from last month: there was Catalunya /Cat 4), not even a sprint tour. During the week was Harelbeke,
(on the friday) so a high cat-team is not allowed to ride criterium international.
(saturday and sunday, no connection with Harelbeke, and cat 3)
The red stuff is me commenting it of course.
How about arguing against what is actually proposed instead of stuff that isn't proposed but sounds good? Ohhhhhhhhhhhh they want to forbid high division teams to ride the Criterium INternational!!!!!
How could these restrictions, be it absolute, no start right, be it with less money look like?
First of course it has to be depending on the categories involved. MSR, parallel cat 1 is different then Schelde and Sarthe. 4+2.
And I then would be more restrictive than FL.. .for example cat 3 race and cat 1 race parallel, be it one day or stage race... put in a restriction of some sort. With one day races wouldn't do the money thing but just "no start"
Let's see march:
Monte Paschi, Cat 3, Vlaamse Pfijl cat 1, parallel West Flanders and Murcia, cat 2 + 2. D1-4, can't ride Vlaamse Pfijl
Murcia and PN parallel, cat 2 + 4. No problem.
MSR and Istarsko Supershit parallel: It wasn't? Yep, but in reality it was.... and should have stayed like this. And, Istarsko Supershit should have been restricted to D6+7.
Catalunya and Crit parallel. No problem.
Catalunya and HArelbeke and GW parallel no problem
Crit and GW parallel: No problem
The tricky one here is, Coppi e Bartali. It's cat 2, parallel to Cat 4 stage race and cat 4+5 one day races. Restrict. How? The money idea looks good. In reality some PT teams start there, yes.. they have enough riders to start in Catalunya, where they have to, in the classics, where they have to, PLUS one of C.I., the more important one, and C&B. We don't and can't, so restrict it.
Possible restrictions I see is: D1+D2 can't start without money penalty. And as an addition we could even make a special provision. Teams that are registered in that country, Italy now, will be Romania for Sibiu during the tour, France for Sarthe parallel to Schelde, can start in that race without penalty. That would give a meaning to the team registration finally. (NOT the language, the fantasy team country, where I'm Chinese and used to be Romanian) Italian based teams can rightly claim that for them C&B is important. A team based in South Korea not really. Of course then the changing of "team base" would have to be restricted to 1 time a year or something, or cost money... a nice 100k and then no more change for 2 months... Mmh, just realized in the new design that "base" doesn't appear anymore.. grrr.. put it in Buhmann.
April:
Sarthe and Schelde. Cat 2+4. Here just a D1 restriction seems enough. With the base exception
Ardennes and PR: Here see Istarsko Supershit. Ardennes D6+7, nobody else. As is in fact the case, I'm hijacking ZLs account now.
PR-Primavera 6+2. Here right now the restriction is: D1-5/D6-7. Change that to D1-5 D5-7. Allow more teams to ride Primavera, it's still cat 2
Filipinas-Castila y Leon-Amstel. Cat 1-2 and 5. Appennino should really be parallel too. cat 2 or 3, don't remember, probably 2. Filipinas D6-7, as it is. Or change it to "money" restrictions ok here too, Amstel is not a monument. C+Y, see Coppi e Bartali. D1+2 can't start without money penalty unless the imaginary team base is there. Amstel? Make it 1-5. Appennino? 4-7 if it's cat 3 (but think 2) then even 3-7.
Trentino-Flèche? 3-5. No problem like CI.
Türkye-LBL? Restriction again, it's cat 2 vs cat 6. D1-3 can start in Turkey only with the money restriction thing. Unless bla bla.
Even Romandie Türkye would give a restriction.
Etc etc.
If the D1 managers managed to get to D1, they should ride the important races, not Türkye and Rioja (restricted to D6+7 now, maybe unjustly if it is a cat 2 race, but since it should rather be cat 1 by now probably..) D2 and D3 to a lesser degree the same. Be the best, ride the best.
As a good side effect, it would give the lower D teams more races among themselves. If they chose too. They still could participate in the PT races (since otherwise we just don't get enough teams for all the planned editions) They are not forced to ride amongst themselves, but they can. No team with almost 2000 races with top riders (or not...) comes and dominates the low cat race. A positive effect for the game in my opinion.
But then there is no more advantage to be in D1? You're punished if you're good? There is a certain punishment for being in D1 etc., sure. You can't chose as freely as somebody in D3, right. But it's not as if that's all the time, that D3+4 (who would have the most choice I guess in this proposal) can chose between more races every day, while the D1 guy is forced to ride something. D1 will always have a choice, except on Monument days that is. It's just that the Cat 1+2 tours won't be rideable in certain cases, and sometimes only with money punishment. No advantage to be in D1. There is, there is. 1 Honour. 2. Money. Yes, money, Buh told me that he'll introduce some money prize at the end of the seasons depending on where you are in which division. In Mai or June. 2011 unfortunately
When he made the new 5th division "I'll add some prize money for the teams in each Division!!!!!" He didn't ok ok, but maybe he remembers in 2014... we'll see. Any restriction would come around 2017 anyway, so...
To make it short:
A combination of a) outright starting ban for high division teams for certain low (cat1) tours during important one day races (cat 6, maaaaaaaaaybe 5), and b) a money punishment for starts by high div teams in low cat (1+2) stage races if parallel there is a high cat (4-5-6) one day race, doesn't really seem overly hard on us poor D1 teams. Less money? It's about fun. And the big majority of restrictions would be money punishments, so the start time problem isn't that relevant either. And.... sooner or later Buh will hand out some more money depending on your division, might take time, but he seemed to be sure he wanted to do it, D1 gets another advantage in return sooner or later.
To make it even shorter:
I know it won't happen, but it should.
