Top teams only at high category races

[team fl]

Situation at the moment:

Top teams (Div. 1-4/5) are weakly represented in classics like Schelde or E3. One reason fort his seems to be low categorised stage races like Coppi e Bartali and La Sarthe (both cat. 2) that take place at the same time AND parallel to higher categorised stage races.

Suggestion:

Such stage races like Coppi e Bartali or La Sartheshould only be offered to Div. 5-7, if, at the same time, cat. 3+ stage races and cat. 4+ one day races take place. In this case, it would be Catalunya and Pais Vasco resp. Schelde and E3.

Top teams (Div. 1-4) won’t have the chance anymore to ride low categories stage races during this time, if at the same time, higher classified stage races and one day races take place.

Furthermore, Kat. 4+ one day races could only be offered to Div. 1-5 teams finally. So far, Schelde and E3 had to be opened for everybody because of the lack of top teams participating.

Possible (positive) consequences:

- More top teams participate at important races.
- Generally, top teams have to be more diversified
- teams in lower divisions have the possibility to ride lower ranked stage races without top teams.

-> top teams still can decide. But during times with important one day races and important stage races, they are not able to ride low ranked stage races. It’s only at certain parts of the year, like March and April, and parts of spring.

-> Detail: Where to draw the line: Div. 4 oder Div. 5?

[Lizard]

First of all, great idea.
Secondly, draw the line at Div 4. High cat races for div 1-4, rest for 5-7

[Alkworld]

First of all, great idea.
Secondly, draw the line at Div 4. High cat races for div 1-4, rest for 5-7

I also agree, but I have a refined idea. I agree to limit the sausage races to Div5-7, but the high ranked races then can still be open for Div1-5 or in lower categorized races (3,4) Div1-6.
So: Don't do a strict seperation, but only keep high divisions from sausage races and low divisions from high cat. races. Some divisions in the middle still have the freedom to choose.
And of course: All this should only apply, if there are high and low category races at the same time.

[NoPikouze]

Interesting...

I kind of agree, could be good to make it div4-7 for the sausage-races parallel to important races. Or even Div3-7. The top teams are required to race the biggest races IRL, it could be adapted to RSF. (Applies only if there is an altervative sausage race indeed)

But on the other hand, don't restrict pais vasco or scheldeprijs or something like that to the best divisions. Is okay when it's open to everybody. Or maybe not D7, whatever... I dont really care about that. But it should not be restricted to D1-4 or D1-5. Give the low divisions also a chance on this kind of races, if they want to (I mean cat 3-4, and 5?).

The high level races restriction should stay the current one. But the low-level parallel races could be closed to D1-2 at least, I guess.

[Robyklebt]

+0,98 NoPik

[Wookie]

But i for example don´t want to ride PR because i won´t have any chance...so i would like to ride "Klasika Primavera", but i can´t...

And in reality big teams can start at two races, or? So they also should here be able to ride both.

[Woddeltown Team]

But i for example don´t want to ride PR because i won´t have any chance...so i would like to ride "Klasika Primavera", but i can´t...

And in reality big teams can start at two races, or? So they also should here be able to ride both.

That's the point i see.
If i have a team for hilly tours, i want to ride tours and not a flat Eneco for example or Paris-Roubaix.

Another thing: maybe there is a tour like Vasco at the moment and i forget to inscript for the time i could ride. Why should i stay and wait one week until the next cat 3 or 4 race starts?

[NoPikouze]

Not wanting... It doesnt really matter.
Although it's a good point about not being able to ride Tour XY because of the times... and then you could also not ride the other/parallel tour.

[team fl]

[quote="Bearclaw]But i for example don´t want to ride PR because i won´t have any chance...so i would like to ride "Klasika Primavera", but i can´t...

And in reality big teams can start at two races, or? So they also should here be able to ride both.[/quote]

That's the point i see.
If i have a team for hilly tours, i want to ride tours and not a flat Eneco for example or Paris-Roubaix.

Another thing: maybe there is a tour like Vasco at the moment and i forget to inscript for the time i could ride. Why should i stay and wait one week until the next cat 3 or 4 race starts?

Are you both sure you really read my proposal?

The "Klasika Primavera" is there, because low Div. teams are not allowed to ride P-R. Not the other way round. And it's not about low cat. one day races, it's about low cat. stage races and only for special occasions in the race calender. Affects you for about 2-4 weeks during a whole RSF-year.

And Woddeltowns point I don't get at all. Why do you have to wait one week? Please read the proposal carfully.

[Wookie]

The "Klasika Primavera" is there, because low Div. teams are not allowed to ride P-R.

Ok, didn´t saw it from this point of view

[Radunion]

I ignored the problem so far, because I expected the number of top teams in such tours to be low. But the fields at Sarthe are really strong, as Vasco is a very different tour with no chances for sprinters. But in my opinion forbidding to participate is the wrong solution. We could instead reduce the money a top team can earn in such tours. Introduce a new category for such races (e.g. 2b instead of 2) In this cat the income and cost of all teams of div 1 or 2 are halved. The points can stay as they are. For cat 1 races that are parallel to something important we could expend this measure to div 3 and 4 and increase the penalty for div 1 and 2 (1/4 of the money?) instead of banning top teams from this races. This should allow teams to keep riding races that are more suited for their teams, but reduce the financial incentive to ride less important races.

[Bear]

I really like this idea. Nothing more to say.

[Woddeltown Team]

The "Klasika Primavera" is there, because low Div. teams are not allowed to ride P-R. Not the other way round. And it's not about low cat. one day races, it's about low cat. stage races and only for special occasions in the race calender. Affects you for about 2-4 weeks during a whole RSF-year.

And Woddeltowns point I don't get at all. Why do you have to wait one week? Please read the proposal carfully.

One question to understand you in the right way: if there are (for example) one or two high category one day races, high division should not be allowed to particapte in a low cat. tour?

[team fl]

The "Klasika Primavera" is there, because low Div. teams are not allowed to ride P-R. Not the other way round. And it's not about low cat. one day races, it's about low cat. stage races and only for special occasions in the race calender. Affects you for about 2-4 weeks during a whole RSF-year.

And Woddeltowns point I don't get at all. Why do you have to wait one week? Please read the proposal carfully.

One question to understand you in the right way: if there are (for example) one or two high category one day races, high division should not be allowed to particapte in a low cat. tour?

If there is a high category one day race (HCODR/cat.4+, low cat. one day race = LCODR/cat.1/2) and at the same time a high category stage race (HCSR(cat.3+, low cat. stage race = LCSR/cat.1/2). Here a formula to visualise it better (yes and no to say if a "top team" is allowed to ride a low cat. tour):

HCODR + HCSR + LCSR= no
HCODR + LCODR + HCODR = no
HCODR + LCSR = yes
LCODR + HCSR + LCSR = yes
HCODR + LCODR + LCSR = yes

not concluding, hope you get my point.

[Robyklebt]

LCODR + HCSR + LCSR = yes

Why?

[team fl]

LCODR + HCSR + LCSR = yes

Why?

why not. if there is a low category one day race, a high category stage race and a low category stage race, I think also top teams should be free to chose. just does not matter if the low category one day race is well stocked.

[NoPikouze]

But nobody answered to the most relevant argument against this whole system: If you can't ride the important Tour/Race/whatever because of the times, until now you can in 90% of the cases ride the other tour/race because they have different times.
With any kind of restriction, it wont be possible so much anymore... And people will might get days without any race (or only cat1 fantasy races instead of the parallel stagerace if they cannot ride the main stage race).

Clear ? yeah.
just forget the whole thing. It's only a game

[Robyklebt]

FL, don't really get it...

Money thing btw interesting, but not sure about 1/2 of COST as well.

REason: It works with things like Sarthe. Most teams will start low cost anway... so there it really cuts mostly into the earnings.
But for hilly things, like Sibiu during the TdF... if I remember correctly was very hilly, teams more expensive... there if I start with a +80k team the half thing doesn't bother me that much. Earnings will not be top anyway... Actually the half cost might even make me start with a more expensive team. 500k+ to get the win for sure, I only can lose 62,5 per day and not 125k.. good deal.

Otherwise over the money seems a good solution actually.

[Woddeltown Team]

But nobody answered to the most relevant argument against this whole system: If you can't ride the important Tour/Race/whatever because of the times, until now you can in 90% of the cases ride the other tour/race because they have different times.
With any kind of restriction, it wont be possible so much anymore... And people will might get days without any race (or only cat1 fantasy races instead of the parallel stagerace if they cannot ride the main stage race).

Clear ? yeah.
just forget the whole thing. It's only a game

Maybe to point NoPiks Guessing out a short example:
during this week, Pais Vasco takes place, a cat 4, very hilly tour. So nothing for a sprinter team. So the sprint wants to ride Sarthe, but is not allowed to ride Sarthe because yesterday there was Scheldeprijs. So the team has to ride fantasy races or boring one day races.
or another example from last month: there was Catalunya /Cat 4), not even a sprint tour. During the week was Harelbeke, so a high cat-team is not allowed to ride criterium international.

Sorry but thats nonsens. Remember the last sentence of NoPik: it is only a game, not our life

[Robyklebt]

Sorry but thats nonsens. Remember the last sentence of NoPik: it is only a game, not our life

Which can mean as well: It's not the end of the world if you can't ride the tour you like. It's only a game.

[Woddeltown Team]

Sorry but thats nonsens. Remember the last sentence of NoPik: it is only a game, not our life

Which can mean as well: It's not the end of the world if you can't ride the tour you like. It's only a game.

Touché.
But normally it means, that it is not such a big problem if you run in lower races

[Robyklebt]

No, that's only the way you chose to interprete it.

The argument: "It's only a game" works 100% both ways. As valid for restrictions as for no restrictions.

So IMO we can simply disregard it.

[Robyklebt]

Thought I could refrain from commenting more, but well, the ape wouldn't be the ape if he could.

Ok, what is the perceived problem? (By some, including me)

That many quite important races, mostly one day races, have fairly horrible participation. Main reasons: many editions of the race and many teams that prefer less important races.

Solutions?

Old ones:
- Make money in stage races dependent on the category of the stage races. See here viewtopic.php?f=3&t=894&start=100#p46177 for my perfect proposal. Since money often is a huge motivator to start in lesser races, and then very often it's exactly those high division teams that absolutely dominate those races, making it less attractive might a) have them not show up. b) have them show up with a weaker team. a) would then guide them to... either the more important stage race, or the more important one day race.
- Allow big teams with enough riders to start in 2 places. With some restrictions... minimum category something. Combined with a future change to an 8 rider standard. But to have that other things IMO need to change first. Here as well, big teams might start at Catalunya and GW and Harelbeke. With doubtful quality of teams maybe...

Mmh, old one too, but the one we are talking about:

Restrictions. or, since I actually like Radunions idea, less money for Eliteteams starting in unimportant races when parallel there is important stuff. Money restrictions. Details when to restrict what needs to be discussed. But first let's get something out of the way:

or another example from last month: there was Catalunya /Cat 4), not even a sprint tour. During the week was Harelbeke, so a high cat-team is not allowed to ride criterium international.

I completely agree with your smiley. I was rolling my eyes all the way to Hawaii in the east and Bishkek in the west (there was a good looking women there, so I stopped, that's why going east I went further). What an example.

FL writes: High category tours (3+) Low category tours 1/2. If x and y and q and z, then.... you're not allowed to ride the low category tour. 1/2. Your argument against this proposal is:

or another example from last month: there was Catalunya /Cat 4), not even a sprint tour. During the week was Harelbeke, (on the friday) so a high cat-team is not allowed to ride criterium international. (saturday and sunday, no connection with Harelbeke, and cat 3)

The red stuff is me commenting it of course.

How about arguing against what is actually proposed instead of stuff that isn't proposed but sounds good? Ohhhhhhhhhhhh they want to forbid high division teams to ride the Criterium INternational!!!!!

How could these restrictions, be it absolute, no start right, be it with less money look like?

First of course it has to be depending on the categories involved. MSR, parallel cat 1 is different then Schelde and Sarthe. 4+2.

And I then would be more restrictive than FL.. .for example cat 3 race and cat 1 race parallel, be it one day or stage race... put in a restriction of some sort. With one day races wouldn't do the money thing but just "no start"

Let's see march:

Monte Paschi, Cat 3, Vlaamse Pfijl cat 1, parallel West Flanders and Murcia, cat 2 + 2. D1-4, can't ride Vlaamse Pfijl
Murcia and PN parallel, cat 2 + 4. No problem.
MSR and Istarsko Supershit parallel: It wasn't? Yep, but in reality it was.... and should have stayed like this. And, Istarsko Supershit should have been restricted to D6+7.
Catalunya and Crit parallel. No problem.
Catalunya and HArelbeke and GW parallel no problem
Crit and GW parallel: No problem

The tricky one here is, Coppi e Bartali. It's cat 2, parallel to Cat 4 stage race and cat 4+5 one day races. Restrict. How? The money idea looks good. In reality some PT teams start there, yes.. they have enough riders to start in Catalunya, where they have to, in the classics, where they have to, PLUS one of C.I., the more important one, and C&B. We don't and can't, so restrict it.
Possible restrictions I see is: D1+D2 can't start without money penalty. And as an addition we could even make a special provision. Teams that are registered in that country, Italy now, will be Romania for Sibiu during the tour, France for Sarthe parallel to Schelde, can start in that race without penalty. That would give a meaning to the team registration finally. (NOT the language, the fantasy team country, where I'm Chinese and used to be Romanian) Italian based teams can rightly claim that for them C&B is important. A team based in South Korea not really. Of course then the changing of "team base" would have to be restricted to 1 time a year or something, or cost money... a nice 100k and then no more change for 2 months... Mmh, just realized in the new design that "base" doesn't appear anymore.. grrr.. put it in Buhmann.

April:
Sarthe and Schelde. Cat 2+4. Here just a D1 restriction seems enough. With the base exception
Ardennes and PR: Here see Istarsko Supershit. Ardennes D6+7, nobody else. As is in fact the case, I'm hijacking ZLs account now.
PR-Primavera 6+2. Here right now the restriction is: D1-5/D6-7. Change that to D1-5 D5-7. Allow more teams to ride Primavera, it's still cat 2
Filipinas-Castila y Leon-Amstel. Cat 1-2 and 5. Appennino should really be parallel too. cat 2 or 3, don't remember, probably 2. Filipinas D6-7, as it is. Or change it to "money" restrictions ok here too, Amstel is not a monument. C+Y, see Coppi e Bartali. D1+2 can't start without money penalty unless the imaginary team base is there. Amstel? Make it 1-5. Appennino? 4-7 if it's cat 3 (but think 2) then even 3-7.
Trentino-Flèche? 3-5. No problem like CI.
Türkye-LBL? Restriction again, it's cat 2 vs cat 6. D1-3 can start in Turkey only with the money restriction thing. Unless bla bla.
Even Romandie Türkye would give a restriction.

Etc etc.
If the D1 managers managed to get to D1, they should ride the important races, not Türkye and Rioja (restricted to D6+7 now, maybe unjustly if it is a cat 2 race, but since it should rather be cat 1 by now probably..) D2 and D3 to a lesser degree the same. Be the best, ride the best.
As a good side effect, it would give the lower D teams more races among themselves. If they chose too. They still could participate in the PT races (since otherwise we just don't get enough teams for all the planned editions) They are not forced to ride amongst themselves, but they can. No team with almost 2000 races with top riders (or not...) comes and dominates the low cat race. A positive effect for the game in my opinion.
But then there is no more advantage to be in D1? You're punished if you're good? There is a certain punishment for being in D1 etc., sure. You can't chose as freely as somebody in D3, right. But it's not as if that's all the time, that D3+4 (who would have the most choice I guess in this proposal) can chose between more races every day, while the D1 guy is forced to ride something. D1 will always have a choice, except on Monument days that is. It's just that the Cat 1+2 tours won't be rideable in certain cases, and sometimes only with money punishment. No advantage to be in D1. There is, there is. 1 Honour. 2. Money. Yes, money, Buh told me that he'll introduce some money prize at the end of the seasons depending on where you are in which division. In Mai or June. 2011 unfortunately When he made the new 5th division "I'll add some prize money for the teams in each Division!!!!!" He didn't ok ok, but maybe he remembers in 2014... we'll see. Any restriction would come around 2017 anyway, so...

To make it short:
A combination of a) outright starting ban for high division teams for certain low (cat1) tours during important one day races (cat 6, maaaaaaaaaybe 5), and b) a money punishment for starts by high div teams in low cat (1+2) stage races if parallel there is a high cat (4-5-6) one day race, doesn't really seem overly hard on us poor D1 teams. Less money? It's about fun. And the big majority of restrictions would be money punishments, so the start time problem isn't that relevant either. And.... sooner or later Buh will hand out some more money depending on your division, might take time, but he seemed to be sure he wanted to do it, D1 gets another advantage in return sooner or later.

To make it even shorter:

I know it won't happen, but it should.

[Bear]

The combination thing is a good idea, should be ok for 99,9% of the team/managers. Maybe Buh can give us a short answer if he is in the mood to change something in the "high/low category races - restriction - money - issue" ...

[GengisKhan]

And what if the money restriction doesn't depend on the division of the team but on the race ?
Id est, the refund of salary would be higher in the big classics (let's say 400k for 8 riders) and lower in the cat.1 (e.g. 200k for 8 riders). And of course, the teams can still run the races they want. Thus, you can ride a low race, but if you want to do it with a 450k team, you'll have to make up for 250k a day, which isn't nothing I guess. On the other hand, if there's a big compensation in big classics, everybody will come with its best team, without much damages, and so the race could be interesting in Roby's sense.