C4F Classics of the offseason 2025/2026 {Voting}

[cataracs]

Here you can vote for the upcoming offseason classics

[Robyklebt]

Don't think all classics are in?

[Gipfelstuermer]

Good idea to do it in a survey. Only problem: how can I vote against a downgrade ?

For example, Kisoro-Kabale, two people want to downgrade it to 2. But 2 others would like to keep it cat.3. They can't vote "keep it cat. 3" so it's a bit tricky to decide what to do in the end with the results?

Better would be to have one survey for each classic? Could be annoying though to have 20 threads?

[flockmastoR]

Here a complete list of last season's winter classics. There are races missing in the vote, also races where taka already voted to cut them:

October 2024
27.10. GP Brescia (3)
31.10. GP Coimbra (3)

November 2024
01.11. Gran Prix de Agadir (2)
04.11. Jable - Al Farandis (2)
07.11. San Francisco classic (3)
14.11. Kisoro-Kabale (3)
16.11. Seychelles Vacation Race (NEW)
19.11. Trofeo de Presa Allende (NEW)
22.11. Dolisie - Point Noire (2)
27.11. Boucles de Wallis et Futuna (3)
29.11. Napier bluff Hill Circuit (3)

December 2024
04.12. Villalba GP (2)
08.12. GP de Papeete (TTT, 2)
15.12. GP Canyon de Chelly(3)
18.12. Bosque Estatal Toro Negro Cup (2)

23.12. Pavés d. Noel (needs a new race/profil)
24.12. X-Mas Islands
25.12. Betlehem
26.12. Tour d. Herne
31.12. St. Sylv/M St. Sylv

January 2025
01.01. GP Letzeburg (3)
03.01. Colombo - Agampodigama (2)
05.01. Aizawl Cup (3)
12.01. El Triptico de Colombia: Trofeo de Cali(2)
15.01. Itabirito - Ouro Preto (2)

[cataracs]

Good idea to do it in a surveg. Only problem: how can I vote against a downgrade ?

For example, Kisoro-Kabale, two people want to downgrade it to 2. But 2 others would like to keep it cat.3. They can't vote "keep it cat. 3" so it's a bit tricky to decide what to do in the end with the results?

Better would be to have one survey for each classic? Could be annoying though to have 20 threads?

I can't remember having this voting against votes thing? or is it just me? lol. I don't think it's a bad thing though, but only if the participants are little, and the nominations needed for a decision are 2 only. If we get more people to vote and participate we could increase the number of nominations needed instead and no need for counter votes.


I know there are races missing, they are not "eligible" because they've been changed not to long ago. (besides the xmas and the races next to it, I thinkare untouchable?)
But also the forum only allows 20 lines

Making more than one voting thread could decrease participations in my opinion? I don't know.

[flockmastoR]

Good idea to do it in a surveg. Only problem: how can I vote against a downgrade ?

For example, Kisoro-Kabale, two people want to downgrade it to 2. But 2 others would like to keep it cat.3. They can't vote "keep it cat. 3" so it's a bit tricky to decide what to do in the end with the results?

Better would be to have one survey for each classic? Could be annoying though to have 20 threads?

I can't remember having this voting against votes thing? or is it just me? lol. I don't think it's a bad thing though, but only if the participants are little, and the nominations needed for a decision are 2 only. If we get more people to vote and participate we could increase the number of nominations needed instead and no need for counter votes.


I know there are races missing, they are not "eligible" because they've been changed not to long ago. (besides the xmas and the races next to it, I thinkare untouchable?)
But also the forum only allows 20 lines

Making more than one voting thread could decrease participations in my opinion? I don't know.

There are many more missing thats why I copy the thing here to check.

What you mean with "not too long ago"? Does that mean they are not changeable now? There are nominations about those races already (Seychelles, Toro Negro etc) or do you consider those already changed?

[Robyklebt]

I can't remember having this voting against votes thing? or is it just me?

No, it never happened because nobody really knew how to handle it
No Calendar-person ever made a rule about it.
For example 2 years ago Chelly was down-proposed to cat 2. Big Donkey of course didn't like it, but not knowing what he then would have to decide in his job (in case it was still his job) refrained from giving an opposition vote. AAD the same I guess.
So 2024 then Donkey and AAD (I think it was him) proposed Chelly back up to 3. That passed too. so 3 2 3.. now the revolutionary Gipfel wants to know exactly what will happen if he gives a counter-vote to an up or down proposal he doesn't like! The same problem btw for nominations to cat 2 from 1. Is opposition to that ok? Interesting question, what will Taka decide? All eyes on Taka. The pressure is mounting! Will he deliver a sensible ruling or will have to deal with a bunch of incensed mountaineers, charging at him like he was a summit, excited Donkeys and "punning" Eiffels? We'll see.

The Donkey has a proposition (but Taka is the boss here, ignore if no good)
In the past years nominations really only by very few managers. Taka, Donks, FL, AAD, Tukh, OL some years and possibly Gipfel some years too, don't really remember. How to increase that? No idea... vote is a way too, but a bit different. Let's hope some of the newer active managers join nominating soon too, since maybe they didn't ride last off season so don't really know the races, maybe only for 2026 then... Anyway, the idea is:

-Keep the nominating as it is. With the number flexible, as it's always been, just ends up always being 2 because we are so few nominators (an allowance might help?) HIhi. haha.
-A few days before you want it fix "unclear cases" to a vote. Like the new proposals with 1 nomination. Or the races with enough nominations but opposition. Or if you decide opposition is not allowed for downgrades from 3 to 2, put all those downgrades to a vote.

[cataracs]

I can't remember having this voting against votes thing? or is it just me?

No, it never happened because nobody really knew how to handle it

This is actually simple, before you vote check the results, if you see a race nominated from 2to3 and you want to opose vote it from 3to2.

Only problem is when someone votes after you, but I think the votes can be made possible to change and I just didn't click te button for that?

[cataracs]

There are many more missing thats why I copy the thing here to check.

What you mean with "not too long ago"? Does that mean they are not changeable now? There are nominations about those races already (Seychelles, Toro Negro etc) or do you consider those already changed?

Racesmissing should be:

Kisoro-Kabale: Promoted in 2023-2024 needs one more year at least before changed again.
Seychelles Vacation Race & Trofeo de Presa Allende: promoted last year, untouchable until 2027-2028season.
Napier bluff Hill Circuit: downgraded last year, untouchable until 2027-2028.
GP Canyon de Chelly: downgraded last year, untouchable until 2027-2028.
Bosque Estatal Toro Negro Cup: propsed as cat2 in 2023, untouchable until next year.
Aizawl Cup: promoted in 2023, untouchable until next year.
El Triptico de Colombia: Trofeo de Cali: added in 2023(no race history ingame), untouchable until next year.

Pavés d. Noel
X-Mas Islands
Betlehem
Tour d. Herne
St. Sylv/M St. Sylv

the last 5 are simply untouchable?


That's needed to stop the change back and forth every season for some races. Can you think of a better idea to stop that? maybe more than just 3 years of waiting? or a complete different idea? Classics and decisions we take should be respected and can't just change after a year.
Also those last 5 races, Idk if "simply untouchable" fits there, but they've been there in that order forever so I don't want to touch them.

[Robyklebt]

This is actually simple, before you vote check the results, if you see a race nominated from 2to3 and you want to opose vote it from 3to2.

What about I see a race nominated from 3 to 2 and I want to oppose it? What if I want to oppose one that is not a classic and is nominated as one? THAT'S the issue, not races from 2 to cut or 2 to 3... even I figured that out!

[cataracs]

This is actually simple, before you vote check the results, if you see a race nominated from 2to3 and you want to opose vote it from 3to2.

What about I see a race nominated from 3 to 2 and I want to oppose it? What if I want to oppose one that is not a classic and is nominated as one? THAT'S the issue, not races from 2 to cut or 2 to 3... even I figured that out!

That's the issue with the Poll, the options are limited. But the main issue we have is the participations, if poll means much higher participations by the community then litle issues like yours can be ignored? But not completely ignored. More people voting= more votes needed for a decision, so oppositions not really needed.

[flockmastoR]

Poll means I need to make a decision on every race at once. Or is it still changeable? Can I vote for upgrading and downgrading at the same time? I guess yes. If the vote is changeable still, it is hard to keep track. I think polling is not a good solution at all (although the idea behind it is to have more people participate)

About the "new" races, wasn't aware of this rule but makes sense imo.

[Robyklebt]

But the main issue we have is the participations, if poll means much higher participations by the community then litle issues like yours can be ignored

Participation the problem, yes. So trying stuff is good of course. But naturally my issues are never little!! BIG Donkey! Big issues! And many issues!

The issues:
1) Both before and now: How is opposition to downgrade a cat 3 race handled? Before was unclear (Donkey failure if you want, was aware of the issue even then, but since nobody asked the question really just never dealt with it) now with the vote it's simply not possible. If enough people want to downgrade a cat 3 race, there is nothing anybody can do about it.
2) Same for proposed new races: Here sometimes I complained, especially if it was weather issues. With the vote for everything, even things that weren't proposed, the issue remains the same as before, what if somebody proposes a race that in your opinion sucks? (Ah, think at least one year I complained, but didn't count my complaint as vote?, but unsure, some sucky gravel race in the pacific)
That's issues with the vote I see. Will it help to increase the participation. No idea, seems a little bit, we have 20 votes, so.... 5-10 people voting? That's more than usual. The result seem a mess so far, good luck making sense of that.

Not related to the vote:
3) New races: It's been a problem for a while, we all have a bit different tastes, (yours is especially bad it seems ) so lots of races end up with... 1 nomination. Having a vote parallel might help have people do more nominations. But might just make people only vote here too, no idea. So far no new nominations since the vote opened, but would likely have been the same without the vote here.

Your new rule, 3 years at the same level:
4) Makes sense, but with no opposition possible for downgrades.... or new nominations possibly, it doesn't solve the problem. Chelly, you hate it, I love it What will happen in 2 years? You vote to downgrade it, somebody else will join. It's down. Cat 2 for 3 years. Then? Lovers like me propose it up. Last year Tukh maybe joined? Others maybe too? Scenario a) Let's assume it goes up again. Then it's cat 3 for 3 years. Then cat 2 for 3 years, then cat 3 for 3 years... not ideal.

5) Same thing, but scenario B, now related to issue 1 again. 5 people vote for upgrade, 4 for down to 0. Downvotes have more power. Being "destructive" has more power for races that are at cat 3, due to issue 1. By not being able to save a race from the downgrade, but the downgraders then having the power to block the re-upgrade... sort of not ideal.

6) By giving only 2 options up and down for cat 2 races, we might "accidentally" lose a c4f classic. Chelly again, when it's at cat 2 again and votable, let's say by then big participation. 9 people want it up. 7 people find it very good at cat 2, so vote for elimination. But then there's 6 people who want it out. Vote for elimination. result, 13-9 for elimination, even if in fact (in this fantasy scenario) it was 16-6 to keep it....

Hm, there was something else, already forgot..

Anyway: There should be the option "stay". But then of course can't do all in one poll.

So not a poll for everything. Just make a poll for stuff that has been proposed.

New races get in if they have enough nominations (since we started "codifying" it a bit always 2, under leso sometimes just 1 was enough, more nominations could go up to 3 etc etc.)
New races with not enough nominations: -> poll (for the moment that would be the races with 1 nomination)
Cat 3 races proposed for downgrades regardless of nominations: -> poll (could be a different one, 2 polls IMO would still be ok)
Cat 2 races with not enough nominations to be either upgraded or cut ->poll (added to the 2 polls above, upgrade poll and downgrade/cut poll)

Would seem a better system to me.
And having new nominations in the poll, might lead some managers to realize that if they nominate something, it could be approved, so far maybe one of the reasons for the low participation is the one mentioned somewhere above, that very often we end up with x single nominations.. (sometimes in the past I then added my nomination to one of the single ones, even if I didn't think too much of the race, just to have something moving). Why bother nominating if it then doesn't get a second nomination... let it be.

In the end your baby, but the poll as it is now is a bit annoying (I still haven't managed to vote, filled it out a few times just to decide that I needed to think about this further... ) And I might head over to the other thread to nominate some other races again, the one in Tanzania with the big downhill that was kicked a while ago was always fun, might want it in again