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Coroncina2 wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:48 pm

My question is how or when new team could start to be competitive if teams that are winning now will got more money?

The change in prize money will have nothing to do with old teams vs. new teams or big teams vs. small teams. It just depends on which races you ride. For example, a new team riding big races, can still make more money there over an old team riding small races

Coroncina2 wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:48 pm

PS: what kind on category we will use? UCI category will be full adapt or with some reason some race will move up or down of cat. because of someone will like more some kind of race?

Our category system is probably not perfect but I think in general the categories fit the prestige of the race very well. Even if it sometimes deviates from UCI. Because UCI like to give higher categories for money and not for prestige


Luques, everybody wants this small revolution

luques wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:39 am

Reshuffle of divisions done.
If at the end of the month all will work good, I will make this modification permanent in the system.

For November, instead, will be time for race prize based on category.

From work in progress..

Can you tell us which numbers you're working on? So that if somebody disagrees he/she can still make a pitch for his/her/MY favorite version.

At the moment using the numbers given by Gipfel, even if I would like to give a -0.05% to cat 1 and 2 and raise a 0.05% to other categories.

Same is for tour, but with the correction proposed by Liquigas.

So this?


1 day race:

Copied from Gipfel, deleted the calculations, and in parenthesis adjusted to what Luques said here.
At the moment using the numbers given by Gipfel, even if I would like to give a -0.05% to cat 1 and 2 and raise a 0.05% to other categories.


Cat. 1: Factor 0.9 (0.85)
Cat. 2: Factor 1.0 (0.95)
Cat. 3: Factor 1.25 (1.3)
Cat. 4: Factor 1.5 (1.55)
Cat. 5: Factor 1.75 (1.8)
Cat. 6: Factor 2.0 (2.05)

The adding of 0.05 in higher categories to me looks pointless. To be honest. And 1.25 or 1.30 seems a bit high for cat 3 as well. I'd have gone for 0.8-0.9-1.0-1.2-1.5-2.0
But ok, we don't have that many cat 3 it seems, they are already of a certain importance, so more than 1.0 ok too.
And since Luques thinks about starting at 0.85, how about this compromise?

Cat. 1: Factor 0.85
Cat. 2: Factor 0.95
Cat. 3: Factor 1.1
Cat. 4: Factor 1.3
Cat. 5: Factor 1.5
Cat. 6: Factor 2.0


Stage races:

Again copy from Gipfel:

Then, for tours make it slightly different because here we generally have higher categories. As a rule a stage win on a tour is as good as a one-day race win of one category lower.

Cat. 1: Stage-Factor 0.8 / GC-Factor 0.8
Cat. 2: Stage-Factor 0.9 / GC-Factor 0.9
Cat. 3: Stage-Factor 1.0 / GC-Factor 1.0
Cat. 4: Stage-Factor 1.25 / GC-Factor 1.1
Cat. 5: Stage-Factor 1.5/ GC-Factor 1.2

Liquigas addition:

Cat. 4: Stage-Factor 1.15 / GC-Factor 1.08
Cat. 5: Stage-Factor 1.25/ GC-Factor 1.14

Gipfel says stages always one cat lower than for 1 day races. Can work. Or make it 0.05 lower, can work too.

Comment on the Liquigas addition:
On stages it's bad. One good reason to go high there is to attract stage hunters. Liqui argues that then he would have won shitloads of money in the Giro and the tour, but IDO (in Donkeys opinion) attracting more stage hunters normally diminishes his earnings, even if most of them come from mountain stages. Since right now the stage hunters, sprinters seem to be a mix between chicken and sheep, and often not starting at GTs, increasing the money there hopefully attracts them. So I would definitely stay either with the Gipfel theory (same as 1 cat lower) or the Donks -0.05 for stages.

GC:
Here the GTs, cat 5 are really a special case. There you get lots of money from the length. 1.14 to me is still to high. We could even stay at 1.0 really, but ok, more important so more. 1.1 max IMO. Cat 4 then either 1.05 or can be 1.1 too.

Proposal with -0.05 for stages compared to 1 day races.

Cat. 1: Stage-Factor 0.8 / GC-Factor 0.8
Cat. 2: Stage-Factor 0.9 / GC-Factor 0.9
Cat. 3: Stage-Factor 1.05 / GC-Factor 1.0
Cat. 4: Stage-Factor 1.25 / GC-Factor 1.05/1.1
Cat. 5: Stage-Factor 1.45/ GC-Factor 1.1

And don't forget the wearing of the jerseys!

But donks running out of time, finished for now here.

The jersey wearing right now is:
20k yellow
10k GPM, points
5k white

Go
30-10k for yellow? Cat 5-1?

Robyklebt wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:43 am

The jersey wearing right now is:
20k yellow
10k GPM, points
5k white

Go
30-10k for yellow? Cat 5-1?

And why not decrease/increase that depends category? And give more money for the more combative too? I just remember that exist

Why not think?
Wanna bet Luques understood that 30k is for cat 5 and 10k for cat 1? For yellow? And half for GPM/points. And 25% for white?

But good point about combative. Clap clap clap.
a)Leave that as it is. Promote and reward attacks everywhere.
b) Cancel it completely, since 94% of the time nobody votes and the last placed gets it.
c) Leave it only for GTs, maybe having it as special feature there increases votes.

Seems I convinced nobody of the superiority of these numbers.
Bah, regardless of which numbers, everything on schedule for Nov. 1s I hope.

Robyklebt wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:25 am

Seems I convinced nobody of the superiority of these numbers.
Bah, regardless of which numbers, everything on schedule for Nov. 1s I hope.

Nope, not before Andes, will be travelling soon.

Ah, so in fact I do care about this! Why does it take more than 6 months to change some numbers? Well, ok, let's come up with a compromise based on RKL numbers and Liqui's opinion:

One-Day Races
Cat. 1: Factor 0.9
Cat. 2: Factor 1.0
Cat. 3: Factor 1.1
Cat. 4: Factor 1.25
Cat. 5: Factor 1.5
Cat. 6: Factor 2.0

Tours
Cat. 1: Stage-Factor 0.8 / GC-Factor 0.9
Cat. 2: Stage-Factor 0.9 / GC-Factor 0.95
Cat. 3: Stage-Factor 1.0 / GC-Factor 1.0
Cat. 4: Stage-Factor 1.1 / GC-Factor 1.05
Cat. 5: Stage-Factor 1.25 / GC-Factor 1.1


I keep the Gip-Rule: One-Day Race is worth as much as a Tour-Stage of one cat. higher.
Also, I agreed with Liqui and RKL to have lower impact on GC-Factor, just ranging from 90% to 110% now.

What is important for implementation for luques: Please also show the new prize money in-game! The cat.6-bug has to be fixed and similarly show it for every category. Also make a news announcement! Also send an e-mail to every inactive player, that you revolutionized the game and they need to join again.

Gipfelstuermer wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:19 pm

Ah, so in fact I do care about this! Why does it take more than 6 months to change some numbers? Well, ok, let's come up with a compromise based on RKL numbers and Liqui's opinion:

As I said at the beginning, this is clearly something for off season. If something goes wrong it is not only money that could miss, but everything that is related to end race (points, palmares, time) and would be quite boring to fix all for some important tours

Moreover doesn't seem to me there was until now a definitive proposal.

Gipfelstuermer wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:19 pm

One-Day Races
Cat. 1: Factor 0.9
Cat. 2: Factor 1.0
Cat. 3: Factor 1.1
Cat. 4: Factor 1.25
Cat. 5: Factor 1.5
Cat. 6: Factor 2.0

Tours
Cat. 1: Stage-Factor 0.8 / GC-Factor 0.9
Cat. 2: Stage-Factor 0.9 / GC-Factor 0.95
Cat. 3: Stage-Factor 1.0 / GC-Factor 1.0
Cat. 4: Stage-Factor 1.1 / GC-Factor 1.05
Cat. 5: Stage-Factor 1.25 / GC-Factor 1.1


I keep the Gip-Rule: One-Day Race is worth as much as a Tour-Stage of one cat. higher.
Also, I agreed with Liqui and RKL to have lower impact on GC-Factor, just ranging from 90% to 110% now.

Let's see what other think about it, will write down tomorrow also on FB and on news if I find time.

Gipfelstuermer wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:19 pm

What is important for implementation for luques: Please also show the new prize money in-game! The cat.6-bug has to be fixed and similarly show it for every category. Also make a news announcement! Also send an e-mail to every inactive player, that you revolutionized the game and they need to join again.

Still figuring out about updating all the display thing, announcement is not a problem, email is not possible, we don't have the technical requirements nor the user agreement to receive emails.

Donks doesn't think the "GC factor" needs to be constant/symmetrical.
Start at 0.8 to me seemed better.
Can be 0.8-0.9-1.0-1.05-1.1
Or even 0.8-0.9-1.0-1.1-1.1, as I said the cat 5 tours get their money from the length... So Abit a special case. He cat 4 ones on the other hand can be part of the constant increase, since their length is 7 to 9 days (or maybe even 6-9?). Anyway comparable to many cat 1-3 tours. So there up to 1.1 somehow seems ok.

Robyklebt wrote: ↑

Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:28 am

Donks doesn't think the "GC factor" needs to be constant/symmetrical.
Start at 0.8 to me seemed better.
Can be 0.8-0.9-1.0-1.05-1.1
Or even 0.8-0.9-1.0-1.1-1.1, as I said the cat 5 tours get their money from the length... So Abit a special case. He cat 4 ones on the other hand can be part of the constant increase, since their length is 7 to 9 days (or maybe even 6-9?). Anyway comparable to many cat 1-3 tours. So there up to 1.1 somehow seems ok.

Donkey, either you just enjoy negotiating too much OR you have a really bad memory OR you want to prevent the change that you initiated yourself!
So let's do a quick recap for everyone!

The original Donkeyposal was 0.6-0.8-1.0-1.2-1.4. Constant & symmetrical & more extreme than anything anybody else suggested! Gipfel thought was too extreme, so suggested 0.8-0.9-1.0-1.1-1.2. Constant & symmetrical. Then, Liquigas thought was too extreme, so suggested 0.8-0.9-1.0-1.08-1.14. Not constant & not symmetrical.

Donkey agreed!

"GC sounds ok"

But less than 1 month later, Donkey disagreed!

1.14 to me is still to high. We could even stay at 1.0 really, but ok, more important so more. 1.1 max IMO. Cat 4 then either 1.05 or can be 1.1 too.

OK, so Gipfel is really friendly and makes another compromise. Make it less extreme, but stay constant & symmetrical with 0.9-0.95-1.0-1.05-1.1.

So Donkey comes around the corner, suddenly doesn't want constant & symmetrical anymore! Why now suddenly? No reason. So either you just enjoy negotiating too much OR you have a really bad memory OR you want to prevent the change that you initiated yourself!

But let me explain why i think an equal distribution makes sense:

1. It's simple.
2. It's intuitive. Take cat.3 as the base case like it is today. Adjust around that.
3. No big change in total prize money in RSF. Because this is not about increase or decrease money. it is about distribution of money.

Oh, come on, if you want to discuss my opinion, at least put full quotes, instead of cutting them...
Like this quote

On GC, sounds ok

the parenthesis right behind it say

(could actually go to 1.05-1.1 too, but ok, not too abrupt, sounds ok)

And at the end of the same post it says:

The Donkey proposal in his last proposal post to him looks better, 1.45 for GT stages. (mmh, just see already proposed 1.05-1.1 there too... ha, maybe I'm for that after all as well).

...
But maybe instead of speculating about my motivations you should just stick to the issue? Novel thought for you maybe, but try it

Luques, did you plan to change the salary cover by categories too or not ?

At the moment not.

A bit of update, I am thinking to release before the version for only single races, then the one for tour (that is a bit longer, considering the adaptation of all shirts as well).
This also to produce only one bug (ehm feature!) at a time.

Have to coordinate with the Donkey to see a good period where we have some days of single races and not Tours in parallel.

Finally sticked with this version:

Cat. 1: Factor 0.9
Cat. 2: Factor 1.0
Cat. 3: Factor 1.1
Cat. 4: Factor 1.25
Cat. 5: Factor 1.5
Cat. 6: Factor 2.0

luques wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:43 pm

At the moment not.

A bit of update, I am thinking to release before the version for only single races, then the one for tour (that is a bit longer, considering the adaptation of all shirts as well).
This also to produce only one bug (ehm feature!) at a time.

Have to coordinate with the Donkey to see a good period where we have some days of single races and not Tours in parallel.

Finally sticked with this version:

Cat. 1: Factor 0.9
Cat. 2: Factor 1.0
Cat. 3: Factor 1.1
Cat. 4: Factor 1.25
Cat. 5: Factor 1.5
Cat. 6: Factor 2.0

For one day races and stage races equally?

team fl wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:22 am

luques wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:43 pm

At the moment not.

A bit of update, I am thinking to release before the version for only single races, then the one for tour (that is a bit longer, considering the adaptation of all shirts as well).
This also to produce only one bug (ehm feature!) at a time.

Have to coordinate with the Donkey to see a good period where we have some days of single races and not Tours in parallel.

Finally sticked with this version:

Cat. 1: Factor 0.9
Cat. 2: Factor 1.0
Cat. 3: Factor 1.1
Cat. 4: Factor 1.25
Cat. 5: Factor 1.5
Cat. 6: Factor 2.0

For one day races and stage races equally?

That's just for one day race
Still doing some calculations for stage races.

A little update you won't like)

Gave the priority to something else, will put single races prize adaptation the 3rd of December, as for Tours I would wait after December Tour (hoping there are not bugs).

Wondering what the something else is....

On topic: So single race adaptation clear, what are the numbers you calculated for tours?

Robyklebt wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:20 pm

Wondering what the something else is....

On topic: So single race adaptation clear, what are the numbers you calculated for tours?

Something else is the division. At the moment the solution was manual (had to fill them manually), from this month turn will be automatical (hopefully).

As for Tours I am still thinking about the GC, would stick with the start at 0.8 or 0.85 and end at 1.15/1.2

Despite Gipfel fantasizing about I don't know what, you realize it doesn't have to be symmetrical? So starting 0.8 does'nt mean finish 1.2... I still plead for a 1.1 finish btw.

Ok, this will be introduced a bit later than what I thought. Everything is practically ready but:

1) Most important next days will be busy and in case of problems it would be really complicated for me to solve them (also not to forget that we would need to update the prize tables).

2) As we decided to eliminate parallel tours to Dec Tour, who is playing the single race parallel program would be really penalized by my choice to make only single races. So I am going to put both correction systems (single race and tour) when December Tour is over.

Stop to always waiting to introduce stuff and just put it in else if the game bug

And tell us what numbers you have decided on.
Not to complain (too late anyway, since I guess you decided and we all laid out our arguments (or misrepresented other people's argument in Gipfels case), just to know.