Team sizes

[Rockstar Inc]

hm, i think i can explain my thoughts with a little view on my team...thoughts of how damn fucking it would be to ride so often with 7 or less riders

5 month ago i sold my old team and build this new team like it is now...a sprinter with 58+ mountain, a time trial rider like 60 mountain, 88+ time trial should become the leaders...i have the philosophy to have strong, really strong helpers for them...so i decided to buy gallego 59/85/7X, Copado 61/84/7x, Lastras 60/87, Copado 72/76, Gutierrez 63/60/85+ and i had my lovely pietropolli 69/83/79 additional some cheaper helpers for flat terrain, not too cheap because they should help, not only fill the line-up

i knew, i wouldn't start at the GTs or the high cat tours with this team, because the costs are too high and the success would be very low...so the smaller tours and hilly single races sould be the focus...

here some riders salary as example:
Ramos(Time Trial) 77K
Cordero("Hill" sprinter) 65K
Gallego 52K
Copado 55K and 55K
Pietropolli 65L
Lastras 58K

of course i don't need all of them in every race...

let's watch the race tomorrow...let's guess 7 riders...not 6 how it's set
Cordero 65K
Lastras 58K
Copado 55K
Gallego 52K

the four riders will cost roundabout 230K...295K is the max. paid starting prime...so i got 65K left fotr three riders...okay, if i have a good chance to win, i'm willing to pay some more...no problem...

but...7 riders...

i need the four riders "fit" Cordero to win the sprint, lastras for the last 5 KM, Copado to "sieb" and Gallego for the KM between sieb and finish...how should i manage that with 7 riders? one rider has to ride while the race..so 2 helpers left for four riders...

it's not possible to ride this race in a good way, a)my sprinter has no helpers and loose the sprint to a 60 mountain and 87 sprint, who does nothing while the race or b)the helpers are too weak to distance the flat-guys or to block late attacks in the front-group of teams who are sitting on their fat ass the whole race...even with one "partner" while the race it's not possible to succeed....and please don't tell my stupid things like "oh so many teams in the peloton will ride"...yes maybe in flat-races there are some team who share the work...but in races with some hills, there are always 2 max. 3 team who ride in the peloton...

same scenario for the time trial guy

now you are pushing me in the direction to sell this "non common riders" with your purpose because it's not possible to ride how it was planned a half year ago...yeah i can sell them...oh i have 70% taxes...damn...

[Zentaron]

It's extremely eaay to control a race with 9 riders without any help from other teams. Not difficult.

And it's extremely expensive..... If you want to ride every day, you need a big team or a team with high reg. I don't earn the money to have such a big team to change all my riders every day. So i have to chose a middle course between mass and reg. And it's expensive enough. You ever saw my salary of a normal race? And you ever saw races, where i have to do a lot of work alone, because i have someone like Iatiknu? And Iatiknu is my leader, for sure. Your goal seems to be, that i won't ride that often for Iatiknu? But why? He's a good, but expensive captain. So he's worth to ride for him and i have to ride for him to get the money back, he costed me. And he is my only option. You ever saw the sprint value of my helpers? An escape is no option for them, they will ever lose in the sprint. And buying new helpers with more sprint costs money that i don't earn that much and makes my team more expensive too......

And even in reality there aren't that much races, decided by an early big group. But that's what it goes here. Chaos, chaos, chaos.
There were several threads where was found out, that in reality as well as in RSF a group needs the good will of the peloton to get through. With your wish for more chaos, it's the will of the group, if the peloton catches them or not. A completely turn around..... (Maybe a bit overdrawn, but i don't trust the humans.)

[Robyklebt]

(Maybe a bit overdrawn, but i don't trust the humans.)

Trust the apes!

It's a test, let's see the results, how we ride etc.


Actually in reality quite a few races end with big groups that escaped somewhere and the rest giving up along the way. Just don't see how it will be simulated realistically in RSF. Sprinters in the group, climbers in the group, etc. If the big group scenario becomes reality: Then it means, be on at km 1, attack with 2 or you have lost the race. But we don't really know that it will become that. Let's see.

My concerns of course got forgotten and haven't been addressed by the humans yet.

[Luna]

1.) I hear lots of talking about Jaco Ysaye. Hey, but sorry, he is a "hill sprinter", one of the most unreal types of riders RSF has aver seen. Even some one-legged riders appear from time to time in real cycling. It's okay to exploit the RSF physics that way. As long as it's possible to have success with those creations why not building those riders and achieving some results with them. I always give my congratulations to the managers of that riders when they get the win. They knew how do make the best out of the system. But isn't it a little bit overdone to repress a step towards cycling reality only because those fantasy types of riders would face some difficulties with that?
So when talking about controlling a race please let's refer to sprinters, climbers and classic riders.


2.) Some people state that I would get better results at races for 6 or 7 guys. But would that really be the case? Never had the opportunity to try it out on a more or less regular basis. Maybe I am kind of known for keeping a group alive and pushing it through. But in taking the win out of it I am really bad. Either I miss the right wheel when the attacks start. Or I have done too much tempo and so lose in the end. Or this or that. There are others who usually deal those situations perfectly. lease recognize that.


3.) In reality some teams start withj 2 sprinters (was that one of your concerns, Roby?). Yes, that's true. But in most cases only one of them goes for the win. A RSF manager is also in the situation to make a choice about who should be the number one for that race. That one gets the ore helop and the other one will come a little more fatigued to the finish line. The others will not know how he has decided. It's all still possible with 8 riders. Even the weaker number two sprinter still has his chances in the RSF back wheel lottery.


4.) Races with 6 or 7 riders are more or less difficut to control. That's true. But please stop taking that as a argument against riding races with an average of 8 riders. That are 2 different things.

Keep in mind that I already differ fro the original claim of having every cat 1 race ridden with 7 riders or less. So no need to discuss as if there would be more races for 6/7 riders than cobble races or lone standing time trials. Keep the variety alive with allowing many tyep of races having their spot in the calendar fro time to time.


5.) I had planned to make sopme research to show you a list of races where 30 riders reached the finish and he rest gave up. Reaching from Tour Down Under (pre Pro Tour) gc regularly decided by an flat stage escape group, to this years Giro di Lombardia. But i don't have time and energy right now for it. Maybe later. But all you who strictly want 9 roders forever and everywhere just suppress those possible developements of a race.


6.) The voting. It's not the best way. As I understand Buhmann right he wants to build RSF towards real cycling as good as possible. So that should be the maxim, not the result of a voting. And I really wish to convinve you rather then overruling you with manpower. And on the other side I wouldn't stop to discuss this matter if there would be a majority against taking RL as a guzideline for RSF.

[Rockstar Inc]

long post, but you're not nearly address the previous and your answer is completely alone in the room

And I really wish to convinve you rather then overruling you with manpower. And on the other side I wouldn't stop to discuss this matter if there would be a majority against taking RL as a guzideline for RSF.

good, you don't want to overrule...nice, but please tell leso the same for his calender...testing without any discussion is a little bit strange...

you see, the first days only 5,6 teams participate at the discussion...now there are a few more...

[the riders]

You want have it more realistic? Lets have some crashes or defects.
When you dont like some Riders-Kategories like Jaco...lets build some standardkategories...flatrider with 50-85, climber with 85-90, and so on.
More realistic is nice for sure, but dont forget we sit in front of a computer. I earn some money with cat.1 races for an expensiv GT-Team. When i dont earn the money, i must start with one climber...tahts it. Ok, its more realistic, but when i start with one climber, 33% of a GT is boring for me. When i start with a sprinter only the etappes for ms are interessting for me and all HC-Etappes i dont go to my computer because its boring.

Actually with this powersystem i have only a chance to get the right group at km 1 or i must work in the pelOton because everybody who can win attacks km1 to get the right group.
Look to field 2....there you have often this problem.

Some days ago, a big group reach the finish line, nobidy in the pelOton makes tempo and erverybody attacks with two riders. I start to make some tempo because this is just a chaosrace and i dont like it. Everybody aks me why i make tempo for nothing because everybody wants attack with 2 or more riders. Thats really the same what happend when we must start with 6 riders and nobody can control.

[Quick]

None of this points is really good. Beginning with ridicoulous number 1.Leaders without flat...that is RSF. And Jaco is a bad example, there are enough classicsprinters who are able to follow in flat...

Number 2 made me laugh...actually i'm not interested in your skills of choosing the right wheel.

Number 3... yeah, sure. Mr BSE comes with 2 sprinters, works, works works has 1 fit sprinter and 1 non fit, an parasit comes and has 2 fit... but well, dont think that this is an argumant for realistic races at all...

Number 4 is a cool one. Am i allowed to choose one of your arguments too which you shouldn't use in the future? Would prefer to "realistic" Only realistic thing about <9riders per race is that this is the case in reality too...

5, well well well... i could search races in RSF where the final group were lower than 30man too BUT we have no "aufgebe-button", so in here it's 30men-group and 20minutes later 100men group. Give us this button and everyone is happy?

6 - i dont think that would our races bring nearer to realitiy, just the number of starting cyclists...

[Zentaron]

Hm, there is not much of you anymore....
Your absolute compulsion argument on which everything is construed is reality. Okay, a weighty one. But then answer the other posts that refer to it. So, first make useful proposals to energy loss, helpers and one-legged riders, as requested here several times, then we can resume talking.

Number 3... yeah, sure. Mr BSE comes with 2 sprinters, works, works works has 1 fit sprinter and 1 non fit, an parasit comes and has 2 fit... but well, dont think that this is an argumant for realistic races at all...

Since the last reforms [helpers with 0 energy can't help (very stupid, because in reality, what's your argument, a helper never runs out of all his energy, he will ever have a bit to bring some water or to stay in the near of the sprinter especially in the early or mid-race - and especially in the mid-race my helpers would be out of energy if i ride as i rode long times ago, with giving groups a long long "Leine"), helpers who ride, can't help (seems to be okay to me, even if i for myself wouldn't have reduced them to zero helping, rather to 1/3)] it is already nearly impossible for me as a favourite to ride with two sprinters, except in short races. And also these one won't offer this possibilitiy anymore, if i have to work with less riders.

[el Galactico]

Yeah, lets talk about the stupid and unrealistic helping/energy loss system? Then everbody is okay to talk about realistic team sizes as well.
My opinion is again that i normally dont need all of my 9 riders to control but they are essential for helping. Ok maybe sometimes you need these 9 riders but then its only realistic when you dont win.

Change helping system first! After that go down to team sizes from 7 or 8 and sometimes 9 for sure.

[el Galactico]

BTW you have to adapt the max. size of the field by now. Kill the one-legged-riders, so we deserve more zero-eyed-managers in field 1 to compensate this loss...

[Quick]

lesossies: not with 6 riders How should it control the field
Us Lecce: good joke,you're favo leso
lesossies: who is the favo ? Colombia ?

Someone hit me? Must be dreaming...

[el Galactico]

Add the Line-Up's from both teams and its muchhhhh better

[deuseburger]

Team Franconia wrote:
hilly races are totaly crap with 6 riders, even 7 are too less

sign with all that i can...

just giving you my impressions from the 15:00 Criterium de Lafontaine today:
i will never ever come to a 6men race with a team that is respobsible for the race in one way or another again. Expect me to participant with a team that wont be over the "antrittsprämie" (if possible) keeping one or 1,5 riders fit for late atts and atacking with the others alternatly... you want arcade? you can get it...
as far as i´m concerned we can stop the 6 riders race testing bulls*** right now. period!
i´m desperatly waiting for the posts that tell me how nice it was to have a 6 men race and dont forget to show me the advantages...

[NoPikouze]

I don't think anybody likes or wants 6 man races. Just to make things clear

[the riders]

I ride this 6-riders-race actually...89km to go, 53sec. in front, alone. I need 3 attacks and a lot of groups to get my 53 sec...ok but thats not the point.

Luna, you say you want it more realistic and in a zc you say 'its the fastes and easiest way to reach this aim with minimizing the teams'.

Maybe you try this point the reach your aim.

1. Whats about crashes random and pure chance?
If you have a 'normal' crash, you fall down maybe 30-40 Sec. and you can decide, if you let somebody fall back or not.
If it is a hard crash and the rider is injuried, he can't ride maybe for 5-10 races.

2. Whats about defects random and pure chance?
When you have a defect, you fall back...for e.g. 30 sec. if you have #1. If you have #2 in the pelton you fall 32 sec. back and so one...because better teams has their material car more in front.

3. Everytime you can say 'my rider step out of the race'. Why he must ride 45 min. behind the pelOton?

4. Riders with 0 power can help or the fall out of the pelOton.
Every rider can helps his leader. Not only to bring him bottles. he can take him out of wind or he rides with his leader through the pelOton.

5. A rider who makes tempo helps his leader of course too. In a group with maybe 10-30 riders. one make tempo and keep his leader in front of the group and take him out of wind.

6. every month or every second/ third it is possible that i offer rider ABC from Team Franconia (for example) a new contract. I see, he gets 50k pro race, i will offer him 60k and Franco decide if he will keep rider ABC in his team, so he must give him 60k pro race too. If Franco don't want do this. rider ABC change to my team.

Why you dont want change this things at first? No, you want have races with less riders. This races ending only in chaos. You see it today.

[Luna]

It's exploding. I take a break here. Too many points that I want to give my answers to. But I can not and don't want to ride a book at this place.

For the meantime i will open up a thread about a bugbear called "chaos races" in the next few days. I think there is a misbelief about it, related to this discussion as well as in general.

[Zentaron]

@riders:
[offtopic]
point 1&2: No crashes, no defects! There is enough luck needed in RSF. And to chose your own argument. I want to have some fun in front of my PC. And if Iatiknu gets injured on the first day of the Tour de France, i won't have fun for three weeks for sure. And if he only falls behind the peloton in a single day race, every "Vollhorst" will join in making tempo, because he can now become 28th instead of 29th.
point 4: Fall out of the peloton? Why? Okay, when the tempo is really really really high, than yes. But normally? No.
point 5: Maybe he can help, but it's not that important. And as i said before: maybe can help only 1/3.
point 6: Absolutely crap. Will be misused. Everybody knows that i want to have for example Iatiknu in any case. So with your proposal everybody can come, offer him a higher salary and i have to answer....
And it prefers Multis, i think.
[/offtopic]

[topsport]

Some thoughts referring to the original topic: I don't really care if the standard number of riders for one day races is 8 or 9 as long if there is a standard so that the teams can adapt and buy riders accordingly. As aux decided that we ride milan – san remo with 8 riders i expressed my doubts that a realistic number of riders result in more or equal realistic race. Still have these doubts. In any case it wasn't really the time for experiments. Given that from november to january nothing important happens in cycling anyway, now is definetly the ideal time to give it try. Or stay with a standard of 9 riders and burry this discussion, would be cool too.

Races with 6 riders are, as far as i see it, are completly different topic.
Nobody wants to make 6-rider-races a standard but I see no reasons to ride from time to time fantasy or unimportant real races with that amount of riders.

The character of a race is affected by several variables – the profile, the number of riders and teams, and the kind of riders every team provides.
Refered to the 21 o'clock race yesterday: If a team like lesossies brings a classic-sprinter to a race where are 34 km to go after the last the sieb, only 6 riders are allowed, and nobody else has a classic-sprinter he is not the favourite. But if anybody, including himself, is behaving and accordingly riding like leso is the one and only favourite it's no suprise that the race sucks.
And if you are unable to ride for you common leaders due to whatever circumstances, leave them at home, bring your 60-80 and 70-80. There are more than enough hilly races per month that end in sprint of a huge bunch.

Since deuseburger is desperatly waiting for someone who tells him how nice it was to have a 6 men race im going to do it. I'm not referring to the race today but to „kumamoto“ (08.10.2010). A hilly race with 6 rider per team, just 70-80 type of riders, different teams in tempo during the race and decided by an attack of several riders in the penultimate round. Unpredictable but not chaotic, i had fun, even though i missed the deciding attack.

I don't think that races with 6 riders per team are necesariliy better or worse than races with 8 or 9 rider are but offer the opportunity to rider another style, the managers just need to engage with it.

[Robyklebt]

The helping system sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hello! It took you that long to realize that?

Helping system was ok until a few days ago it seems, post/threads about that topic remained empty, ignored, now all of the sudden it's an RSF crisis

[team fl]

I like races with only 6 riders. But not too often. It is a whole different race and it is clear, that the flat skill for the riders becomes much more important. It is also clear that riders with lots of sprint but not very much flat are not very useful for these types of races. Anyway, as I said, I like this approach to have different races and some variation. Just because of that. Not because it's more realistic or not, more fitting for my team or not (funny this argument always comes from those teams, who can't ride "their" race anymore -> arguments inversed).

Btw, first go and learn what Arcade really is before calling something Arcade. A race that is more open and perhaps a bit more chaotic doesn't have to be Arcade if it still simulates realistic race characteristic for this type of races, as it also happens in the real cycling world.

And the other thing about the team's line-up: adapt. That's it. Yes, don't bring your 70-70 with 70 sprint for a hilly race and yes, leave your sprinters at home if it's flat. Doesn't mean these type of riders become less usefull. I don't know how it will be with standard 8 riders, but this is another question, I am talking strictly about races with 6 riders.

And yes, maybe we need some other things done first in RSF before implementing this (change of standard team sizes per race). Still no need to become so very emotional and almost insulting in this discussion...

[deuseburger]

wow,
let me quote from two of your paragraphs in order to have a look at its consistency of development, just in case someone havent already noticed...

1:

...A race that is more open and perhaps a bit more chaotic doesn't have to be Arcade if it still simulates realistic race characteristic for this type of races, as it also happens in the real cycling world....

2:

Yes, don't bring your 70-70 with 70 sprint for a hilly race and yes, leave your sprinters at home if it's flat.

(emphasis by me)

if its not plain to see i will even come back and comment on that but hey, if this doesnt speak for itself i dont know...

love, greez deuse

[team fl]

I don't understand your argument. Why is it arcade or not realistic to leave this kind of riders at home?

[Luna]

Instead of opening a chaos race thread


Look at the results of the first 2 flat stages of the Vuelta a Bolivia:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/vuelta ... -1/results
http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/vuelta ... -2/results


Oh my god. CHAOS The tour is over for most of the peloton. Unreal! Such things must never happen! Everything what might lead to such an outcome has to be avoided. Because it's vicious and nobody would have fun with such a race.

[Zentaron]

And what?
First: Two out of one million races. Great proof.
Second: In a peloton with only 81 riders, it also happens at RSF yet with 9 riders per team. (And watch, tomorrow there will be only 63 riders at the start.)


So, nothing to emphasize your viewpoint.

[Robyklebt]

There are many more examples of this.


Belletti, a sprinter won a Girostage. From an escape! Oh the horror!
McEwen, in one of his 500 Paris-Bruxelles wins, won from an escape. Terrible thing, sprinters attacking and winning! Mostly winning is terrible.

Or in smaller races, action similar to Bolivia probably

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/39th-g ... -1/results

oh, how bad, a climber is in a group, half of the starters give up. And the climber then WINS! THAT SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT IN A RACE THAT ISN'T FOR CLIMBERS!

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/sparka ... en/results

WAAAAAAAH, a SPRINTER is in a groupr in a CHAOS race. Chaos good, but SPRINTERS SHOULDN'T BE THERE. They might win! Well, not Greipel, but other more talented ones!


That's what I mean with reality beeing introduced to get less real results. A point that will be ignored as usual.