Calendar Handover

[Gipfelstuermer]

Hello everyone,

Good news in my private life, but unfortunately it means I will no longer have enough time to fulfill my role as Calendar Planner properly (which some of you have noticed already).

I am going to finish the 2026 season (all real races done) but after many years, it will be time to hand over by 1 January 2027.

In the in-game survey, seven of you mentioned they might be interested to take over. If that's still the case, please raise your hand here or reach out via PM.

Regarding the responsibilties, some of you had the idea of a "calendar committee" with more than 2 people instead of having 2 "calendar planners". While I am all for more opinions and democratic structures, I would like to highlight that the calendar, each month, consists of many many small decisions (which races, how many times, which times); and taking all these decisions "together" might be difficult with a "committee". So my recommendation is to stick to having 2 "calendar planners" that can back each other up, split their responsibilities as they wish (real races / fantasy races is just one possible split), but also have the power to decide alone, as and when needed. However, if there is a strong sense that people prefer a "committee" I will not stand in the way, and I will handover to either 1-2 "calendar planners" or 3+ "calendar committe members"; i.e. to whoever has the time, the skills and the passion for the calendar.

Gip

RESPONSIBILITIES (my personal view)

- Have an overview of the yearly cycling season (I will share my Excel-Tool)
- Produce a Preview PDF each 15th of the Month (Template in my Excel-Tool)
- Create the previewed races in-game
- Engage in the calendar discussions in the forum
- Produce a Final PDF each 25th of the Month (Template in my Excel-Tool)
- Amend the previewed races in-game, where necessary
- Keep track of which race profiles have been designed by whom (in-game works well but double-check in forum)
- When races are designed by others, Approve & Publish race profiles
- If a race is not designed in-time, insert old archived profile or produce emergency-profile in short-notice
- Collaborate with your fellow calendar planner(s) and/or calendar committee member(s)

[NBeullens]

Thanks for all the work Gip, good luck with your good thing in personal life (now i'm too curious what it is)

[flockmastoR]

Hello Gip,

First of all, happy for you personally. All the best in your private life.

Second, many thanks for managing the calendar in the past years. I know it is a lot of work to do!

As you said, there are a lot of little decisions to take, so ONE person responsible in the end is my preferred solution as well BUT I think distributing the workflow on more shoulders is a good thing and I think there were good ideas behind the "commitee" proposal. But what it really needs in the future is a better and more direct communication. If personal schedule is blocking timely actions (and it will) there need to be a fallback and the person needs to proactively contact that fallback person / admin panel about it. Also tasks and responsibilities need to be listed and accepted in advance.

I am also curious about the current situation regarding Schappy and the Fantasy Race planning. Has he officially resigned or is he just ghosting the game? Who is doing the race uploading now? Who is planned to take his part over? Just asking because the Offseason calendar is starting soon and would be interesting to know already.

PS: First thing I read was "Calendar Hangover"

[Gipfelstuermer]

Also tasks and responsibilities need to be listed and accepted in advance.

Good point. Added them above. Only my point of view of course. People could interpret the job differently.

I am also curious about the current situation regarding Schappy and the Fantasy Race planning. Has he officially resigned or is he just ghosting the game? Who is doing the race uploading now? Who is planned to take his part over? Just asking because the Offseason calendar is starting soon and would be interesting to know already.

It was me in my role as "emergency race uploader" which is part of being Calendar Planner (and which explains why there should at least be a 2nd person as a "backup"), as I have not heard anything from Schappy for a few weeks.

For fantasy races, we had more changes (AAD, Taka, Schappy) whilst I was handling the real races. Depending on interests/strengths the job can also be split differently.

PS: First thing I read was "Calendar Hangover"

Good one. I should change the title

[drei.zehn]

Klingt nach Nachwuchs bei Gip…
Egal was, Glückwunsch dazu!

Habe meine Hilfe in der Vergangenheit schonmal angeboten und wäre in einem Komitee auch weiterhin bereit dazu. Für mehr würde mir auch die Zeit fehlen.

Generell finde ich ein Komitee aber auch eine gute Idee. Von 1-2 Personen abhängig zu sein, hat uns immer mal wieder in Probleme gebracht. Ich meine das auch gar nicht böse, Privat kann nunmal immer etwas dazwischenkommen!

Ein Komitee aus 5 Leuten zb, damit es immer eine Stimmmehrheit gibt. Einer davon bekommt eine finale Entscheidungsgewalt, falls trotzdem Probleme etc. auftreten. Ein anderer bekommt die klare Aufgabe auch um den Fantasy Kalender zu kümmern.

Und wie AAD schon meinte, wichtig dafür wäre ein direkter Kommunikationsweg über zb Discord oder WhatsApp

[r FSCL]

Thanks for all the work Gip, wishing you the best of luck for the future.

[r FSCL]

I’m not sure if this has been discussed before, but wouldn't it make sense to have a team handle the one day races (fantasy races) and the other team handle the stage races?
Dreizehn made a good point: perhaps two people responsible for one day races and two people for stage races, plus another person to make the final decision.
I would also welcome having specific designers for one day races (fantasy races) while the other designers handle the stage races, so everyone knows exactly what they are responsible for.

Team 1: handle one day races (fantasy races) (2 planners + 2–3 designers)
Team 2: handle stage races (2 planners + 2–3 designers)

[cataracs]

I don't like the committee idea. How it's working now is the best. It sure needs a lot of commitment and time and effort but it's best to decide alone. (that's how it should be for the fairplay aswell)

[drei.zehn]

I’m not sure if this has been discussed before, but wouldn't it make sense to have a team handle the one day races (fantasy races) and the other team handle the stage races?
Dreizehn made a good point: perhaps two people responsible for one day races and two people for stage races, plus another person to make the final decision.
I would also welcome having specific designers for one day races (fantasy races) while the other designers handle the stage races, so everyone knows exactly what they are responsible for.

Team 1: handle one day races (fantasy races) (2 planners + 2–3 designers)
Team 2: handle stage races (2 planners + 2–3 designers)

I think we should not limit us for designers. Who ever wants to design and has the time for it should be able to do so

[Tukhtahuaev]

We definitely should stay with 1 or 2 people who decide in the end. But a committee behind that as support would probably be helpful

Also don't think designers should be limited in what they design. It just needs to be well communicated in advance what races are still missing designs and who plans to do it

[drei.zehn]

We definitely should stay with 1 or 2 people who decide in the end. But a committee behind that as support would probably be helpful

Also don't think designers should be limited in what they design. It just needs to be well communicated in advance what races are still missing designs and who plans to do it

Sure 1-2 should do the final decision. It’s about having f.e. 5 guys being able to upload races or jump in for any other thing needed.

Besides discuss some things of course


…right now we needed aad to jump in, who for sure had his reasons not wanting to do it anymore. But he was forced to do it again

[Yamaka Corse]

Now I understand the infinite pool we did some months ago! I disagree the commitee for this kind of work, different players got different reaction time, so just planning a classic stage could become a 3/4 week work

1 + 1 with 1 "supervisor/substitute" Is also my idea of a balanced work

[drei.zehn]

Now I understand the infinite pool we did some months ago! I disagree the commitee for this kind of work, different players got different reaction time, so just planning a classic stage could become a 3/4 week work

1 + 1 with 1 "supervisor/substitute" Is also my idea of a balanced work

Don’t think you quite get it.

Anything that needs to be decided, there can be a short discussion, a vote and it’s finished.

We had the 2 people system and it collapsed from time to time. Somehow it always worked, but someone always got stressed or pissed or anything

Also an idea to try the committee for 6 or 12 months and see, if we go back to the 2 people system

Without aad jumping in here and there, I think we could have had days without any races uploaded. Big thanks to him (and of course to Gip for the work over the years), but maybe that’s not working everytime…

[Zappes Raiders]

I think it makes sense to have a small comitee where every member has a usual task and someone for backup.
The comitee members should have the rights to decide for there task on there own but bigger general discussions should be decided by the comitee. Like:
- Overall calendar design
- Slots etc. for important races
- ...

I would be open to do help in a comitee (even I said I dont want to be calendar planner in the survey ). At least I would try, depends on the actual workload

[Robyklebt]

How many c4f players does it take to change a lightbulb?

[Yamaka Corse]

Now I understand the infinite pool we did some months ago! I disagree the commitee for this kind of work, different players got different reaction time, so just planning a classic stage could become a 3/4 week work

1 + 1 with 1 "supervisor/substitute" Is also my idea of a balanced work

Don’t think you quite get it.

Anything that needs to be decided, there can be a short discussion, a vote and it’s finished.

We had the 2 people system and it collapsed from time to time. Somehow it always worked, but someone always got stressed or pissed or anything

Also an idea to try the committee for 6 or 12 months and see, if we go back to the 2 people system

Without aad jumping in here and there, I think we could have had days without any races uploaded. Big thanks to him (and of course to Gip for the work over the years), but maybe that’s not working everytime…

As a former fpc member you should know how slow the reaction time is for the commitee, we have sleeping and old time players that love game but can't stay here the whole day, and also you should know that every minute you lose in the commitee page is a minute less you have for gaming/drawing

Don't forget in emergency case Admins can do the work too, I think more than 1 time WZ did something taking/asking 0 credits in the last 2 months so is a bit more complex than just 2 players, the question should be: we want zappes use his extra time for draw or text in the commitee page?

[flockmastoR]

Now I understand the infinite pool we did some months ago! I disagree the commitee for this kind of work, different players got different reaction time, so just planning a classic stage could become a 3/4 week work

1 + 1 with 1 "supervisor/substitute" Is also my idea of a balanced work

Don’t think you quite get it.

Anything that needs to be decided, there can be a short discussion, a vote and it’s finished.

We had the 2 people system and it collapsed from time to time. Somehow it always worked, but someone always got stressed or pissed or anything

Also an idea to try the committee for 6 or 12 months and see, if we go back to the 2 people system

Without aad jumping in here and there, I think we could have had days without any races uploaded. Big thanks to him (and of course to Gip for the work over the years), but maybe that’s not working everytime…

As a former fpc member you should know how slow the reaction time is for the commitee, we have sleeping and old time players that love game but can't stay here the whole day, and also you should know that every minute you lose in the commitee page is a minute less you have for gaming/drawing

Don't forget in emergency case Admins can do the work too, I think more than 1 time WZ did something taking/asking 0 credits in the last 2 months so is a bit more complex than just 2 players, the question should be: we want zappes use his extra time for draw or text in the commitee page?

We need more guys doing stuff and no multi layer discussions (forum first, committee second). The discussions are already taking place in the forum ATM. So I would say that all active forum members there are exactly the kind of commitee some are talking about. I am not saying I am against discussions, but I still think there needs to be one person responsible for drafting and finalising the calendar. Then more people with the possibility to upload races is for sure needed. The calendar admin then can delegate work to calendar planners (as in theory is the case now as well). They can check final versions of real races for him (if that's what was agreed upon), upload real races after checks (if that's what was agreed upon), upload fantasy races and chose times for them (if that's what was agreed upon), draft a fantasy calendar for the offseason (if that's what was agreed upon), organize the selection of designers for Andes and Tour de Pave (if that's what was agreed upon), organize the december tour design competition (if that's what was agreed upon), organize the selection of offseason classics (if that's what was agreed upon), motivate designers and provide them information of what races are needed and what real races need to be designed or checked. But I personally still want one responsible person that continues the c4f calendar and follows the principles behind it. I want that this person can be addressed by the community and the admin board.

So long story short, my preferences: Committee for taking decision: contra, Committee for distributing the work: pro

[Schartner Bombe]

How many c4f players does it take to change a lightbulb?

Depends on what they want to change it into

[Robyklebt]

Bah, nobody bites on my question... 18 was the answer, 18. So to make it 18 here to I feel compelled to write my opinion too.

Committee? What for?
Look at the first post, Gipfel has now written down the requirements (his personal view)
It's basically 2 main jobs with many smaller things in between.

- Produce a Preview PDF each 15th of the Month

Alone you find 30', look up a calendar, make an excel sheet. Maybe takes a bit longer at times, don't remember. Done, post it.
3 man committee? 1 guy does it, 2 go over it? All 3 do one, find agreement later? Whatever the system, it takes longer, since you have a discussion until the committee finds an agreement. It makes the process longer, more complicated.

The second and actually bigger negative, that WZF already alluded to, is: The committee doesn't only replace the single calendar planner, it also will automatically replace, at the very least partially, the whole community. That's what committees do, it's a community that gives a smaller group of people control over something. Yes, this one wouldn't be set up with that goal, but the result would very likely be similar. The preview would become more powerful, harder to change once it comes out of the committee, Of course it's already powerful now, it sets the tone, it automatically reflects the priorities of the calendar planner, but it remains open to change. Once it passed a committee much less. "oh, we already discussed that, member a said that too, but b and c disagreed, so let's not go through another 20 messages back and forth again." (that is internal communications btw)

So in this stage a committee isn't achieving anything. And also

We had the 2 people system and it collapsed from time to time. Somehow it always worked, but someone always got stressed or pissed or anything

This stage was mostly unproblematic. A bit late sometimes, last 3 months became a bit problematic IMO, VERY late for October, changes announced (and implemented, don't even remember) after the final PDF in previous months, no clarity anymore. Result, the calendar planner realized the problem, resigns. System worked.
A committee for this part of the job? Pointless.

The second big part of the job is the clicking and clicking in the tool. Basically the following (in Gipfel's personal view)

- Create the previewed races in-game

- Amend the previewed races in-game, where necessary
- Keep track of which race profiles have been designed by whom (in-game works well but double-check in forum)
- When races are designed by others, Approve & Publish race profiles
- If a race is not designed in-time, insert old archived profile or produce emergency-profile in short-notice

Old system, so never had to do the "create previewed races" but sounds tedious. The rest is indeed tedious, doubt it became more exiting with the new tool.
Do you need a committee for that? No.

What you need is back ups. That we've had, Taka for Gipfel at times, Flock for everything at times, now Gipfel for Schappy too?
Here the Dreizehn panic: The system on the verge of collapse! is more understandable, but actually the problem for real races lately was: Nobody designed. (at the risk of repeating myself, with an editor that was more user friendly designing would still be more fun, and feel less like work...)
And there is a bigger problem with fantasy planners: we've had 2 fantasy calendar guys disappearing without notice it seems. First Taka, goes off without telling anyone. Scrambling for a new one, the backups with access, WZF and Gipfel (?) covered, then Schappy took over. Who now disappeared without notice as well (from WZFs comment here it seems that way, maybe he informed Gipfel, don't know) Anyway, that is first and foremost a common sense, communication problem. It really should be self-evident that you don't just leave when you have a job without telling anyone. Maybe you can find a guy with at least a minimum of common sense?

So, solution? It works.
And actually I think 1 person could really also do both jobs, real calendar and fantasy calendar. I did. THe uploading now of course probably is more time consuming (but more stable) so ok, the men in charge think 2 is better, ok, split it, no problem. Advantage of 1 is that the 1 has the whole thing in his head a bit, he does the whole uploading he knows that the real race he just uploaded for the 13.9. or whatever is at these and these times and is a slightly hilly sprint race, so he knows that for the 14th maybe other times are better, and that not a very similar race is better. The separate uploader/planner for fantasy has to check more, the single worker should have more information. But if splitting is regarded as better, that works too of course, just saying that it isn't impossible to do both jobs, and even has some advantages (also some disadvantages maybe). Time maybe an issue, ok.

Next: While committees here don't help IMO, what could is:
1) Calendar planning: Boss and slave. The slave does what Gipfel did so far. He then sends the PDF (or excel sheet) to the boss, with explanations. The boss looks it over, if he thinks it's good, puts it online as preview as is, if he thinks something else is better, he corrects it and posts it. Not a committee, the boss has the final say. Slave then does the forum work, discussion, keeps track of demanded changes, sends an amended excel sheet again, boss looks it over again, same as before, final pdf is there, decision made. Boss finished working, slave now puts online. This is basically what we had under Luques. With Donkey as the slave. IMO it worked. No discussions, he has the final say, often he didn't do changes, sometimes he did. A second pair of eyes indeed helps. But not if they are both at the same level, one has to be the boss and make the decision, otherwise... we start having long discussions back and forth. Boss in this scenario though would have to be an admin IMO. And actually take the time to look over those proposals. If none of them is ready to do it, then IMO the boss-slave system already not so good anymore, then let's just go with the single do it alone planner.

2) Uploading etc. Back ups are needed. We actually have them. WZF and Gipfel still have upload rights anyway. If it's the split, real and fantasy, you have another back-up there. Or you could keep Taka&Schappy, the lovely couple who lacks common sense on with their rights, they already know how the uploading nows, as last resort uploaders. Or train new ones. Just here too, make it clear, person a uploads (or a and b for split roles) If they can't, they inform somebody and c takes over, then d, etc. Make it clear to avoid chaos, stepping on other toes etc. It isn't that difficult actually. COMMUNICATION and clear division of roles.

One thing that I would add to the requirements (this time in my personal opinion)

- Update around the 20est. This can be with an updated PDF preview, but doesn't have to be. That would formalize it though, make it more regular, but isn't absolutely necessary. But in forum, in a post, the planner should give a complete update of changes he plans to make after the first round of comments. That was mostly missing under Gipfel, and it makes it more complicated for normal users. Sometimes a change then needs adjustments in other places too, often actually, so sometimes "I will add race x at time y" is not enough, a whole update. Because then with that x to y change, maybe times for race z and stage race a will be adjusted too. And that then isn't always a good or logical change. So posting a complete overview over planned changes from the original PDF would simplify things and prevent weirdness and final PDFs that turn out not to be final.

So, next guy to help with the lightbulb, I did my turn.

[flockmastoR]

Old system, so never had to do the "create previewed races" but sounds tedious. The rest is indeed tedious, doubt it became more exiting with the new tool.

One point to this. Was always wondering if you really create all those races manually, looks like you do. So here is for sure a way to automate this. The pdf contains all information needed to create the placeholder race entries (without profil details, recurring events, min tact, type of race etc.) just not in a machine readable way. But you use an excel sheet to produce it, so that can work. In the simplest way, having a template that you upload (.csv or .xml) once it is final and which creates the race entries directly from the plan. maybe needs some testing and error handling but even if some entries fail to be created first, it can help by creating 90% of the races already and you got from click create all by hand to checking if the creation worked.