Nationenkomitee / Nations Committee

Non-technical discussions about RSF-riders and teams.

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Idéfix
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Re: Nationenkomitee / Nations Committee

Post by Idéfix » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:29 pm

Hello,

Please give back French nationality to Bob Igny.

- We can find same French Bobs : https://www.prenoms.com/prenom/BOB.html

- Igny is a French name, the family d'Igny even gave its name to a city not far from Paris...
http://www.geneanet.org/genealogie/fr/igny.html

Really have again that NC is a bit arbitrary and did not check by easy and very accessible google search^^

Anyway, thanks for repairing that mistake and for giving him back his flag!
215 victoires

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1 Paris-Roubaix (2019)
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Re: Nationenkomitee / Nations Committee

Post by team fl » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:08 pm

Idéfix wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:29 pm
Hello,

Please give back French nationality to Bob Igny.

- We can find same French Bobs : https://www.prenoms.com/prenom/BOB.html

- Igny is a French name, the family d'Igny even gave its name to a city not far from Paris...
http://www.geneanet.org/genealogie/fr/igny.html

Really have again that NC is a bit arbitrary and did not check by easy and very accessible google search^^

Anyway, thanks for repairing that mistake and for giving him back his flag!
Can you just not present facts without a cheap shot...

A) no problem with Bob.
B) D'Igny, as you write, is the family name, not Igny. Igny is indeed a towns name IF YOU GOOGLE IT!

So why is it totally arbitrary? Because the NC hasnt the time to check the history of every town in France you like to name your rider after? Flag is on the way from tomorrow on, you ungraceful and unpleasent human being.

Edith told me, the other sentence I deleted now was not okay.
I didn't mean to say it. But I meant what I said.

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Idéfix
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Re: Nationenkomitee / Nations Committee

Post by Idéfix » Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:00 pm

team fl wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:08 pm
B) D'Igny, as you write, is the family name, not Igny. Igny is indeed a towns name IF YOU GOOGLE IT!
D'Igny is a family name AND Igny too (cf my link).

Anyway, thanks for the flag back!

I may be more pleasant if you do not unpleasantly remove flag without asking first for more proofs, if you don't have the time to check yourself.

If next time you ask : "Idé, I think your rider has a not OK name relatively to his nationality, could you bring any proofs otherwise I'll have to remove his flag?", I will be for sure more pleasant! Removing without asking is not "being correct" IMO, so if you are not "correct" with me, why should I with you in response?
^^
215 victoires

Classiques :
2 Ronde Van Vlaanderen (2016-2018)
1 Paris-Roubaix (2019)
1 GP de Plouay
1 GP de Montréal
1 Het Nieuwsblad
1 Paris-Tours


Tours :
1 Tour de Romandie
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1 Campeonato de los Andes

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Re: Nationenkomitee / Nations Committee

Post by Hunsrueck » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:21 pm

Idéfix wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:00 pm
team fl wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:08 pm
B) D'Igny, as you write, is the family name, not Igny. Igny is indeed a towns name IF YOU GOOGLE IT!
D'Igny is a family name AND Igny too (cf my link).

Anyway, thanks for the flag back!

I may be more pleasant if you do not unpleasantly remove flag without asking first for more proofs, if you don't have the time to check yourself.

If next time you ask : "Idé, I think your rider has a not OK name relatively to his nationality, could you bring any proofs otherwise I'll have to remove his flag?", I will be for sure more pleasant! Removing without asking is not "being correct" IMO, so if you are not "correct" with me, why should I with you in response?
^^
Hi Mister WauWau,

1. The national committee does not see directly which rider belongs to which team
2. Do you really believe we should personally contact the relevant team for every application
3. we already have enough to do with the whole new rider names
4. the system of rsf gives us limited possibilities to react and they are used by us
5. If you find this unfriendly, write to leso or luques to change it
6. what gives you the right to write in such a way and manner, maybe that's how it is with you, but not for me and my colleagues

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Re: Nationenkomitee / Nations Committee

Post by Idéfix » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:42 pm

Hey Huns,

1. How is this possible? Well ok, probably the NC does not have the best tools, but not a huge amount of time to send a message (copy pasted, as it could be the exact same message from one case to another.

2. Yes of course (excepted real bullshit like a rider named "Crap Shit"...).

3. Amount of work is an issue, but maybe a) more people to "hire" for that / give German names to check by Germans, French ones to Frenchs, etc. (much more efficient), b) probably it would take less time if correct flags are not removed and then given back.

4. "the system of rsf gives us limited possibilities to react and they are used by us" Sorry but no. Easy to send a copy-pasted message.

5. "If you find this unfriendly, write to leso or luques to change it" Same for you. If you find me unfriendly ask Leso or Luques to change something to improve things. Just remind that I am not the first that complained about "unfriendlyness" but FL.

6. "what gives you the right to write in such a way and manner, maybe that's how it is with you, but not for me and my colleagues"
Well I already explained that. I consider that the way of removing the flag is at least as "violent" as my words. Question of point of view. What gives you the right to remove a correct nationality without any previous info? Maybe that is how it is with you, but not for me.
215 victoires

Classiques :
2 Ronde Van Vlaanderen (2016-2018)
1 Paris-Roubaix (2019)
1 GP de Plouay
1 GP de Montréal
1 Het Nieuwsblad
1 Paris-Tours


Tours :
1 Tour de Romandie
2 Tour de Catalogne
1 Campeonato de los Andes

team fl
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Re: Nationenkomitee / Nations Committee

Post by team fl » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:14 am

Idéfix wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:00 pm
team fl wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:08 pm
B) D'Igny, as you write, is the family name, not Igny. Igny is indeed a towns name IF YOU GOOGLE IT!
D'Igny is a family name AND Igny too (cf my link).

Anyway, thanks for the flag back!

I may be more pleasant if you do not unpleasantly remove flag without asking first for more proofs, if you don't have the time to check yourself.

If next time you ask : "Idé, I think your rider has a not OK name relatively to his nationality, could you bring any proofs otherwise I'll have to remove his flag?", I will be for sure more pleasant! Removing without asking is not "being correct" IMO, so if you are not "correct" with me, why should I with you in response?
^^
a) haven't found it then, and Bob Igny sounds more like an English name anyway.
b) we do not remove something "unpleasantly" but because we're either not sure or we thing it's not okay. AND give the user the opportunity to appeal correctly AND pleasantly.
c) I don't see whose rider it is at first hand. So the decision was made without knowing it was your rider. And can you imagine how much time it would cost looking at all the names that could be or could not be correct? Exactly... the ^^ you can shove up somewhere unpleasantly.
I didn't mean to say it. But I meant what I said.

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Re: Nationenkomitee / Nations Committee

Post by Idéfix » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:23 pm

In your ears, for Igny :)
In French ears, names ending with -gny are traditionnally characteristical of Burgundy.

Anyway, removing + giving back = 2 actions. Asking first = 1 action + more "pleasant" ;-)

Maybe if it is too much work to do things "pleasant", ask for more people in NC !
215 victoires

Classiques :
2 Ronde Van Vlaanderen (2016-2018)
1 Paris-Roubaix (2019)
1 GP de Plouay
1 GP de Montréal
1 Het Nieuwsblad
1 Paris-Tours


Tours :
1 Tour de Romandie
2 Tour de Catalogne
1 Campeonato de los Andes

team fl
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Re: Nationenkomitee / Nations Committee

Post by team fl » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:27 pm

Idéfix wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:23 pm
In your ears, for Igny :)
In French ears, names ending with -gny are traditionnally characteristical of Burgundy.

Anyway, removing + giving back = 2 actions. Asking first = 1 action + more "pleasant" ;-)

Maybe if it is too much work to do things "pleasant", ask for more people in NC !
Just say thanks and keep the other stuff for yourself, won't you? It only makes you look worse.
I didn't mean to say it. But I meant what I said.

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Idéfix
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Re: Nationenkomitee / Nations Committee

Post by Idéfix » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:29 pm

I said "please" and "thanks".
I just notice there is no "improvement willings".
But probably not in my side too ;-)
215 victoires

Classiques :
2 Ronde Van Vlaanderen (2016-2018)
1 Paris-Roubaix (2019)
1 GP de Plouay
1 GP de Montréal
1 Het Nieuwsblad
1 Paris-Tours


Tours :
1 Tour de Romandie
2 Tour de Catalogne
1 Campeonato de los Andes

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Re: Nationenkomitee / Nations Committee

Post by team fl » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:22 am

Idéfix wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:29 pm
I said "please" and "thanks".
I just notice there is no "improvement willings".
But probably not in my side too ;-)
Read correctly. I didn't write that you haven't said "please" and "thanks". But that you should have left it with that without the other side comments. Anyway, thanks for being polite on that side. Regarding Improvement, I really don't know what to improve and why people don't understand that it is organisationally highly inefficient to do what you want (btw. you have not been the only one wanting to be asked beforehand).

It is much easier to let a user come up with a good argumentation for a name than check every name even more thoroughly, maybe even with asking the responsible user. That would be a shitload of more work which could not be dealt with. And sometimes, it's just that the "sound realistic" part, which is very subjective, leads to that, like in your case. That's no arbitrariness, that's due to resources and personal knowledge.

So for us (at least for me and Hunsrueck as I guess), it is very frustrating when users come up with allegations like this, always poking, always provoking, instead of just presenting their case. As said before many times, compared to the number of riders the NC is dealing with, there are very few cases in which we're plain wrong. But it happens. And then, we need the help of the user. It's not a one-way street. And which game, if not this, needs the community more for different tasks, e.g. designing races, the FC, the NC, etc. So be a valuable part of that community :)
I didn't mean to say it. But I meant what I said.

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Re: Nationenkomitee / Nations Committee

Post by Idéfix » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:38 pm

I can understand. We lack some figures to find better ways. How many riders do you have to check by month, and among them how many "not obvious" cases of nationality loss?

I do not think that amount is > 15, and it takes less than 30 secs to check the team and copy-paste a generic message.

In all cases that is also why I said that maybe more NC members (and by ""big"" nations in terms of number of riders) might be required. Never saw an announcement in this sense.

Anyway as you say i am not the first one that asks for another process, so maybe time to put some questions on the table. Sorry if that hurts you, but yeah, your previous message was understood like "I dont want to even think to change my way of point things, there is no improvement possible, so deal with it, even if you find the process rude".

It is not the way i see things but i have no power to change it vs the "established NC"^^

Now, holidays time. Ses you in some weeks!
215 victoires

Classiques :
2 Ronde Van Vlaanderen (2016-2018)
1 Paris-Roubaix (2019)
1 GP de Plouay
1 GP de Montréal
1 Het Nieuwsblad
1 Paris-Tours


Tours :
1 Tour de Romandie
2 Tour de Catalogne
1 Campeonato de los Andes

team fl
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Re: Nationenkomitee / Nations Committee

Post by team fl » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:13 am

It just doesn't get better... You build up something from nothing and paint a picture that has nothing to do with reality. And because two teams made stupid claims that make no sense does not make it less stupid.

And change something that is not necessary because you are too lazy to help every half year a bit in this thread? Surely not.
I didn't mean to say it. But I meant what I said.

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Re: Nationenkomitee / Nations Committee

Post by team fl » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:12 am

Btw, for everybody who is curious about it: The NC had do deal with appeals against 14 decisions so far in 2018. In 8 cases, the appeal was succesful (thanks to the help of the player).

6 of them not, due to the NC-Guidelines (NCG):

- 2 cases because §3 NCG (first and last name in the wrong order or first name as last name)
- 1 case because §2(1) NCG (clone)
- 3 case because §1(1) NCG (does not exist in reality and/or does not sound realistc)

Just to put this into perspective: Just have a look at the transfer list of 2018 which you can look at in the team statistics page. There have been over 4'000 riders bought in 2018 so far. Not all of them with new or difficult names, but we still have to deal with most of them. In average, that's roughly 18 rider names per day (16. August ist day 228 of the year) and an appeal quota of 0.35 %. Some cases are easily done, some not. For example, take a name from today's list:

Johan Blacklund, Norway: Sounds realistc, no? But when you google it, you a) don't find a Norweigan with that name BUT find a Swedish Ice Hockey player names Johan Backlund. So, what do you do now? Is it a clone? Is it okay because of your first thought that it could sound realistic? Is it maybe another nationality because "black" is clearly english? What do you decide? (Seriously, write it here).

In conclusion, I think that's not too shabby of the NC, although the individual cases may be annoying for the appealing player. Anyway, I don't see more than one appeal from a particular player this year, so it should be manageable for you all to help the NC a bit. And just remember, the NC members are doing this voluntarily as a community service (not to confuse with services of the public or private sector as it seems to be the case sometimes).


Edith adds that of course there may be an estimated number of unreported cases where the NC was wrong too. But we can only present what we know. The rest ist up to speculations in which particular field of expertise you guys are better than me I guess :)
I didn't mean to say it. But I meant what I said.

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Re: Nationenkomitee / Nations Committee

Post by Robyklebt » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:46 am

Instead of wasting your time writing excuses you should properly research Igny before violently, almost terroristically actually, revoke his citizenship!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Kraftsystemrevision! Include the distance!
Basics reform: Give blue a chance!
Don't punish bugusers. We all have to use bugs, since most of them are declared as "features"!

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Re: Nationenkomitee / Nations Committee

Post by team fl » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:56 am

Robyklebt wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:46 am
Instead of wasting your time writing excuses you should properly research Igny before violently, almost terroristically actually, revoke his citizenship!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
So you have an opinion about Blacklund? :)
I didn't mean to say it. But I meant what I said.

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Re: Nationenkomitee / Nations Committee

Post by olaf » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:57 pm

why has Howard Marksjnr lost his nationality ? he is the son of a former rider in my team.

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Re: Nationenkomitee / Nations Committee

Post by Hunsrueck » Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:53 pm

olaf wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:57 pm
why has Howard Marksjnr lost his nationality ? he is the son of a former rider in my team.
You got a PM

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Re: Nationenkomitee / Nations Committee

Post by Flolandria » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:47 am

Änderung der Nationalität von Phillipsens Nathan:, "Belgique" zu "Staatenlos"
Begründung: #keinName#

So the firstname is amongst the top 100 of most popular firstnames in Belgium.
The surname is still in use but less popular than Philipsens or Phillipsen, but still existant.

Änderung der Nationalität von Braems Jordy:, "Belgique" zu "Staatenlos"
Begründung: #keinName#
The firstname is one of the more popular names in Belgium (top100).
Braems is a not so popular surname in Belgium but it's still existant. (ex footballer Urbain Braems or ex-cyclist Phillippe Braems)

Änderung der Nationalität von Teirlinckx Gunther:, "Belgique" zu "Staatenlos"
Begründung: #keinName#
Günther was at a certain time a quiet popular firstname. (https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunther you can see all the belgian famous persons with the name)
Teirlinckx, again less known in Belgium, but still a belgian name. https://www.transfermarkt.nl/alexandre- ... ler/406494

In my opinion all shoud have their nationality back relying on my long year experience with Belgian names.

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Re: Nationenkomitee / Nations Committee

Post by team fl » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:56 am

First and last name are in the wrong order.
I didn't mean to say it. But I meant what I said.

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Re: Nationenkomitee / Nations Committee

Post by Flolandria » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:01 am

team fl wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:56 am
First and last name are in the wrong order.
Fair enough. :lol:

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Re: Nationenkomitee / Nations Committee

Post by fantasticos » Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:31 pm

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0380143/bio Vorname Sandalio exisitiert...

https://www.houseofnames.com/santero-family-crest Santero als Nachname...

Jetzt ist die Familie halt vor der Geburt von Sandalio auf Estland ausgewandert und er hat dort die Staatsbürgerschaft...ist das machbar?

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Re: Nationenkomitee / Nations Committee

Post by team fl » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:27 am

fantasticos wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 6:31 pm
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0380143/bio Vorname Sandalio exisitiert...

https://www.houseofnames.com/santero-family-crest Santero als Nachname...

Jetzt ist die Familie halt vor der Geburt von Sandalio auf Estland ausgewandert und er hat dort die Staatsbürgerschaft...ist das machbar?
That's not how it works:

NC-Guidelines § 4:
(1) A rider’s name has to fit the given nationality.

-> Hence, no. Please chose a fitting nationality, if you don't have a serious source that shows that the name Santero is fitting with Estland indeed.
I didn't mean to say it. But I meant what I said.

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Re: Nationenkomitee / Nations Committee

Post by fantasticos » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:03 pm

Bei Raivo Santero wars ja kein Problem :lol:

Gebt ihm halt irgendeine andere Nation wenn ihr dann besser schlafen könnt..

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Re: Nationenkomitee / Nations Committee

Post by Hunsrueck » Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:25 pm

fantasticos wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:03 pm
Bei Raivo Santero wars ja kein Problem :lol:

Gebt ihm halt irgendeine andere Nation wenn ihr dann besser schlafen könnt..
Warum, du hattest doch drei Versuche.

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Re: Nationenkomitee / Nations Committee

Post by fantasticos » Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:52 pm

dann halt nicht :lol: wieso genau aber ein Raivo Santero ein Land hatte und Sandalio jetzt nicht mehr muss man auch erst verstehen :?

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