Points and money for jerseys during tours

[Robyklebt]

One of my old favorite topics.

Let's start with the points. Done in early 2007, big points revolution, the one thing we forgot was: Points for jerseys. So Buhmann did whatever and the result is

Cat 1:
GC: 37, that 43,53% of the stage winner
Mountain/Points 26 30,59%
youth 15, 17,65%

Cat 2

40 38,1%
28 26,67%
16 15,24%

Cat 3

42 32,31
29 22,31
17 13,08

Cat 4

45 28,13
31 19,38
18 11,25

Cat 5

50 23,81
35 16,67
20 9,52

Put another way:

In a cat 1 race getting the yellow jersey is worth a bit more than getting 4th place of a stage, in a cat 5 race it's worth getting 9th place.
In a cat 1 race getting the points or mountain jersey is worth 1 point less than 5th in a stage, in a cat 5 race it's worth getting 14th place.

It's obviously illogical and make no sense at all. It makes the jersey comparatively MORE important the less important the race is.

A good system would either do the opposite, or at least treat all the same, relatively the same.

So far Buhmann never cared, maybe he cares now? I'm even making a nice little proposal.

getting the leaders jersey: Always worth the same as 5th in a stage. 29-36-45-56-73
getting the points/mountains jersey: Always the same as 15th in a stage: 13-16-20-25-33 So a bit less than half the points than the guy who gets the leaders jersey gets. Seems sensible.
getting the white jersey: Always worth the same as 20th in a stage 9-11-14-17-23 2/3 of the points/mountain jersey. Seems sensible, again.

The jerseys at the end?

The logic doesn't improve, except for the GC obviously.

But the points/mountain/youth? A joke. So, in a GT, the winner get's: 15 points per day for the mountain-points jersey. that's 345 points. A guy that wears the jersey for 10 days gets... 350 points.
The WINNER of that jersey often gets less points than a guy who just wears it for a few days. Cat 1 tsimilar, right now wearing that jersey for 2 days gives you 52 points. The winner of the jersey in a 4 day tour gets 60 points.

Change that too.
Here maybe make it the same as place nr 10 for mountain/points and 15 for youth, same as those places in the GT. Then, the winner in a GT would get 308+7*23, 469 points. The guy that wears the jersey for 10 days still gets 330, So maybe still worth too much per day. Cat 1 one 2 days 26points, the winner gets 50. Good. And logic.


MONEY

Same thing.

40k
30k
15k

is JUST TOO MUCH. Today for getting first and second in a stage I got 170k. Cool. For getting red, green, white, I got another 85k. Too much.

2 possibilities.

Make it dependent on the category. The higher the category the more you get, which would be logic, since the wearing the green jersey at the tour gives you publicity, wearing it at the the Tour of Morocco doesn't interest anybody. Ok, you never liked that idea, so not even bothering to make a proposal here. The other way would be: Just cut the money generally

30k
15k
10k
That's enough.

At the same time INCREASE the money for the end. Right now it's so ridiculous that wearing green one day gives you 30k, in the end it's 10k per day.

GC as it is, points/mountain 15k (up from 10), youth 10k (up from 5) And since you like giving money to nr 2 and 3 as well (I don't care, is ok if you like it) increase that too.

Maybe there are better proposals, both money and points, if you're interested (and no, this one isn't a time problem, since it doesn't really involve any brain activity to figure out that the system now is shit and that almost anything else is better and doesn't really sound like it takes much work to change those numbers) just say so and I can put another 20 minutes into it and come up with a better proposal.

But my guess is you still don't care.
Can you at least tell me WHY you think it's good as it is now?

[NoPikouze]

The Ape get's a double win + all the jerseys and a couple of hours later he's complaining about his wealth...
When you have so much honors, big money is normal I guess.

But on the %s and the wearing/winning jersey ratio, I agree.

[Cerro Torre RT]

Has been on the table for so long, it was a thing that has to be changed all the years. Totally right, but do I believe it will be changed ?

[Bear]

I think that most of the managers know that this must be changed. And I also agree with Roby. He is right in every point, these are facts. So I hope that this will be changed soon. I like the new numbers Roby mentioned. And I would support when there is no money for 2nd and 3rd (in Mountains category etc) anymore because it happens too often that teams ride for second place in the youth classification for example.

And it's important that the points/money for a jersey must be higher if you have the lead in this category at the end of the tour than for only 1,2 or 3 days. Maybe this decreases the teams who just ride for the climbers jersey just in the opening stage.

And I would really like it if the points/money are regulated by the Category, too. Nobody cares about these "Misthaufen" Races. But a stage race like Tirreno-Adriatico or a GT is much more important (especially because it's a real and famous race) and should be honored with more points/money than cat 1 stage races.

[team fl]

I agree with Roby too (hate to say that). Money and points just for wearing a jersey have to be changed (down).

[ariostea]

yes, proposed already for several times - but Roby is right, let´s try again.

1st - it makes absolutely no sense to give the same money for getting jerseys in the Giro and in the Tour like for Tour of Marocco or sth. nobody cares about. the Roby proposal is good - just take it.

2nd - for me the main problem in this - you make the people care about these jerseys, if you give them that much money/points for it. i am really sick of teams attacking with full power for red jersey (for nothing in my eyes) - destroying all the groups and the race in general. we have to make the teams more being concentrated on going for stage wins , if they do not see chances in "yellow", for getting better (and more realistic) races. why riding for a stage, when red is more lucrativ in points and money? not every race is the Tour de France - there is (almost) no prestige and success in winning (and wearing!!!) the mountain jersey in a small Tour...way too much points and money for this.

[Radunion]

There a several different points to which I only partially agree:

1) ratio between win and jerseys - yes this should be the same in all catagories

2) unnatural behavor due to money for jersey - also in reality small teams often target the mountain jersey. The difference is that in RSF the mountain rider cannot go in the escape group to win/secure his jersey as he has very bad flat skills. Therefore teams ride in the pelOton to give their rider a chance. I think it is interesting to have teams with different target, this makes a very interesting race.

3) importance of jerseys in small races - not only the jerseys are unimportant also stage wins are

In general we have no races just ridden to gain form. In RSF all teams ride to win something, that makes the nature of small races very different to reality. In fact the are more like big races in reality. I think this is fine.

[Luna]

2) unnatural behavor due to money for jersey - also in reality small teams often target the mountain jersey. The difference is that in RSF the mountain rider cannot go in the escape group to win/secure his jersey as he has very bad flat skills. Therefore teams ride in the pelOton to give their rider a chance. I think it is interesting to have teams with different target, this makes a very interesting race.

In reality small teams that target the mountains jersey don't send their climbers on the escape, but ordinary escapers, baroudeurs; most commonly. Except for mountainous stage races, but there the climbers very well have their chance to go in the escape, too.

3) importance of jerseys in small races - not only the jerseys are unimportant also stage wins are

That's not the same. A stage win in the Tour Down Under is still of far more importance than the win of the mountains jersey in the Tour Down Under.

Jupiter and Mercury both are pretty small objects compared to the sun. But Mercury is still just a dust particle compared to Jupiter.

[auxilium torino]

The awards are primarily established to ensure that the races are more 'spectacular and that the teams, give battle on several fronts.
To do so, many races, just hit the various winners of the day in the various classifications, which are, however, many more ', that only those we present.
At the Giro, there are, for example, over 10 different rankings ...
I am also of the opinion that the various classifications, premiums must give small money prize, but' at the same time, should be increased the types of awards ...
At the same, but i would let it the we give money for the top 3 in every Classification, or small team have no more interest in the game.

[Buhmann]

The money shouldn´t depend on the category. We don´t handle it that way with all the other things, so here we shouldn´t do this too.

And i have not a problem with changing the points and money for the jerseys. Mainly the jersey for the best climber shouldn´t be so important and lucatrive.

What i would prefer, too, is that we decrease money and points for the jerseys and increase the money for the 1th(!) of a race. I don´t know if Robys numbers are good. But i have not an idea what could be the best. so thats fine by me.

I have another point (or should we discuss this another time at another place?):
Points and money for the tour-end. In my opinion this is really too much for places from 4th. Especially for grand tours. Winning one stage should be more important than become 10th in the classement. Or what do you think?
We can look at the jersey for the first time. But i only wanted to say, that we should change more. The next weeks/month are a good moment for this.

[Cerro Torre RT]

ok, discuss more, then let's discuss about that:

why shouldn't the money be dependent on the category in all cases? Does not have to be in a huge way, some like 80%, 90%, 100%, 120%, 150%, 200% ? (think that should lead to more or less the same in total as now, as we have much more low-category races)

And additionaly, a thing i would like to see since a long time, is the free salary dependent on the category. If my wishes are fullfilled, it would be like that:

(all calculated for 9 riders)

Kat1: 330k
Kat2: 350k
Kat3: 375k
Kat4: 410k
Kat5 one day race: 450k
Kat5 tours free in total
Kat6 free in total

That would lead to that not every kat1-race will be dominated by monster teams, but in the higher categories teams do not have to watch for their salary that much. Too, it would solve quite a bit the problem of giant money wins in low-category tours. The balance will remain in my eyes as the teams have to take care that they have a cheap team for kat1 races.

[Buhmann]

why shouldn't the money be dependent on the category in all cases?

Because that would destroy the balance. Some teams begin int winter and there are only Cat. 1 races. And these teams should earn fewer money? I don´t think that this is a good idea (i see more disadvantes than advantages).

[Cerro Torre RT]

ok, maybe, then let's discuss about the dependence of free salary which doesn't hurt new teams, in fact they will more benefit of that if they who only can show up a cheap team will be more likely to compete with cheaper teams of their enemies while the money to be earned is the same. In fact, for me that is the more important point, too.

[NoPikouze]

Changing the money prizes according to the importance seems a very good thing to me. It simply makes sense, and will encourage teams to focus more on the important ones. But Buhmann's point is right as well...
Then the idea of a changing salary cap. Nice idea as well, I like it, although it would mean quite a big change in the gameplay, a lot of teams with 9-10 riders who ride usually at 400-410k would have to change their lineup, for example. Requires some thinking...


A quicky:
If you mix up both, the result could be ok.
Lower salary cap means easier places for little teams. They would win more money as now. Then you can decrease the prizes for unimportant races. The financial result would be (more or less) the same.

[Luna]

I like Cerro's suggestion. We could establish it from February to October and leave it like it is now for the 3 months in the off-season.

[Robyklebt]

And i have not a problem with changing the points and money for the jerseys. Mainly the jersey for the best climber shouldn´t be so important and lucatrive.

Then do it.

What i would prefer, too, is that we decrease money and points for the jerseys and increase the money for the 1th(!) of a race. I don´t know if Robys numbers are good. But i have not an idea what could be the best. so thats fine by me.

Ok, not sure what you mean by that exactly. You mean for wearing the leaders jersey (GC) or you mean at the end? Or stage wins?

[Buhmann]

I mean stage-wins. Or (single-)race wins generally.

Summary:
Decrease points/money for wearing jerserys
Decrease money/points for place 4th-30th in the classement of tours
But increase money/points for winning a race/stage

[Robyklebt]

The Cerro proposal

Not good.

330 for Kat 1. New teams get 15 Millions. they buy a climber often, after all climbers sounds good. Or a sprinter. Or both. And the rest just to fill out the roseter. 9 riders, salary of under 375, but often above 330. Almost always I would guess actually. How are they supposed to win money if they have to pay in each race? They don't have to pay as much as I thought, just checked a few fairly new teams and often their salary is around 340-350.

Old teams, growing teams. Not all of them will manage to get to the 330k either. What will happen. While now a team that pays 365k will have no problems not winning or not making money a few days, it will have that problem in the future. What happens? A lot more people start riding for the primes on the way. Including me. A lot more people start riding for a good placement rather be 7th than 18th, even if it means helping a dropped possible winner back. Including me. You increase the pressure on all teams, old ones, growing teams, new teams, what you get is less riding for fun, for the win, more riding for money. It's the logical reaction as well. And if for once I manage to be under 330, guess what happens? It's a chance to get money lots of money, a chance that isn't there often anymore in one day races, I'm not going to let a group with 10 riders be in front of me in a sprint race, regardless of if I have a sprinter that can win or if I only have the 27th best sprinter. Why should I?

With 330k max you just put immense moneypressure on everybody. Which doens't help the race.

The opposite, free for GTs and monuments? Not good again. Right now you still need to pay a bit of attention to the salary. Often many are too expensive, including me, right, but still in a calculated way. We can survive it. What happens with no limit? It becomes a pure "materialschlacht". You don't have to give a shit about the cost anymore. It's all paid, it's all pure profit. Buy 3 good riders before a GT, of course "verbilligte", salary enormous, doesn't matter. Buy him, you don't even need to sell him after the GT, after all you have guaranteed profit, you can buy the necessary 42-80 with 25k salary for the 33k races after from the profit. You get 750k teams for GTs and it will be those exact same teams that then can manage to stay under 330k in the cat 1 races, with the profit from the GTs, they will manage to buy the necessary riders for the cheap races. The good riders of course almost won't ride races anymore, even less than now. Good helpers even worse, good leaders, ok, put in the 89 climber for cat 1, put in 6 42-80 for 25k 260k for 7 riders, then you have 80k for the 2 others, take a 70-80 for 50k and a 55-80 for 40 k, you pay 350. For a shit team with a top leader. The teams that didn't ride the GT or didn't have the 750k team without paying for it, they won't be able to have the cheap cat 1 riders in the race AND the more expensive riders at home, waiting for important races, they'll have on or the other. Either the cheap riders, that then will ride in cat 2, 3, 4, 5 as well, or the good support riders, that then will have to ride cat 1 as well.

Not really sure about the general idea either, some sort of difference could be ok here too, but with those numbers? Very bad.

[Vuvuzela]

I mean stage-wins. Or (single-)race wins generally.

Summary:
Decrease points/money for wearing jerserys
Decrease money/points for place 4th-30th in the classement of tours
But increase money/points for winning a race/stage

If you would do this, I wouldn't have been, where my team is now (I hope competitive ).

[Robyklebt]

ary:
Decrease points/money for wearing jerserys
Decrease money/points for place 4th-30th in the classement of tours
But increase money/points for winning a race/stage
I mean stage-wins. Or (single-)race wins generally.

Decrease points for wearing of jerseys: Clear and easy.
Decrease money for wearing jerseys: Clear, less easy, but not that difficult. Is money according to category still a big NO?

That part is easy and is what the thread originally was about. The rest is more complicated and potentially makes the above more complicated too.

The first big question is MONEY. Can that be according to category?

[Buhmann]

The first big question is MONEY. Can that be according to category?

Hmm. No. It´s hard enough to establish a good balance related to the money. In my opinion there are more disadvantages. Some bonuses for important races could be okay (like Cat. 6 races now), but mainly for all categories the money should be the same.

[Robyklebt]

Ok, nobody writes anything, then I continue here. After a little thinking, calculating, masturbating, researching and smoking I came up with this:


Money not according to category says Buhmann.. bah. That was one conclusion at least. That is best ignored, at least partially.

Decrease points/money for wearing jerserys

Agreed. Or better: Adjust points, decrease money.

Decrease money/points for place 4th-30th in the classement of tours

Disagree on the points, at least partly. Checked our point system and compared it to the UCI point system.

UCI

Place 1-20, TdF, % of points of the first place on the left, GTs at RSF on the right.

1. 100-100
2. 76,47-70
3. 58,82-50
4. 52,94-40
5. 47,06-35,55
6. 41,18-30
7. 35,29-27,56
8. 30,59-26,22
9. 25,88-23,78
10.22,35-22,44
11.18,82-20
12.15,29-19,33
13.12,94-17,56
14.10,59-16,89
15.8,24-16,22
16.5,88-15,55
17.4,71-13,78
18.3,53-13,01
19.2,35-12,34
20.1,18-10,67

We value first place more than the UCI. From place 2-9 the UCI gives more points than we do. So I see no reason to cut 4-10 at least. From then on we give more points. But it's a different system as well, 30-40 riders get points, much less in real races. If we want to cut points from 11 on, we have to stop giving points earlier as well I think.

Our scale is basically the same everywhere, the UCI has more changes. monuments is 100-80-70-60 even... in the continental circuits then it's more like 100-70-40 (all in percentages)

Finally I think our 100-70-50-40 system is good for the final GC of Tours. Some strange numbers between some places, like very small difference between 13-16, then a bigger cut, happens fairly often, that's when the factor that then is multiplied by the days is changed. We can of course change the whole system if Buhmann wants bigger steps after place nr 10. Or number 7, where IMO the stops could be a bit bigger. The problem here is that we value the length of races as well, so making a new system is just an unbelievable hassle. But if Buh really wants it, ok.... I just expect that everybody that makes a proposal writes down every detail here so that Buhmanns head explodes too.

Money is a different thing of course. Here changes probably good and necessary. Right now our money scale and the points scale are basically the same. 100-70-50 etc. Money could and should be changed. And different systems for Tours/stages/one day races ok as well. A small problem here though: Since Buhmann wants the same money for all categories basically, it becomes more difficult. Don't think there is too much money around for GTs, cutting money there not really a good idea. For cat 1 tours on the other hand, especially long ones... usually there is just too much money lying around. Even I occasionally manage to make + in those tours.

But increase money/points for winning a race/stage

Again, separate money and points. And separte one day races from stages as well. The one place where the UCI has a "steeper" scale is: Stages. (and the womens world cup). 100-50-30-20-10 for the TdF, 100-50-25-12,5-6,25 for the Giro and Vuelta, 100-66-33-16,67-16,67. And think that sort of makes sense 2. A second place in the Giro, still nice, a second place at MSR, still nice. Second place in Aprica during the Giro... who cares? So points for stages is the one place that I agree a change in the point scale would be a good thing.


Ok, that was the introduction, now the serious stuff starts.

Money for one day races:

First, change the scale from

1 100000
2 70000
3 50000
4 40000
5 35000
6 30000
7 28000
8 26000
9 24000
10 22000
11 20000
12 19000
13 18000
14 17000
15 16000
16 15000
17 14000
18 13000
19 12000
20 11000
21 10000
22 9000
23 8000
24 7000
25 6000
26 5000
27 4000
28 3000
29 2000
30 1000
31 900
32 800
33 700
34 600
35 500
36 400
37 300
38 200
39 100
40 100

Total 639'600

to

? That's the question.
many possibilites I come up with 3 that seem to kind of make sense to me. 1 is, just increase a win to 140000, leave the rest as it is. Here what I don't like is again the small steps from place 7 on, IMO there they should still be bigger. So proposal nr 2

1 140000
2 70000
3 50000
4 40000
5 35000
6 30000
7 27000
8 24000
9 21000
10 18000
11 17000
12 16000
13 15000
14 14000
15 13000
16 12000
17 11000
18 10000
19 9500
20 9000
21 8500
22 8000
23 7500
24 7000
25 6500
26 6000
27 5500
28 5000
29 4500
30 4000
31 3500
32 3000
33 2500
34 2000
35 1500
36 1000
37 800
38 600
39 400
40 200


Total 659'500

So basically we increase the money by 19'900 overall, +40k for the winner, places 7-40 then lose 20,1k compared to before. From place 25-40 actually there is more money than now. But the difference to place nr 10 becomes smaller, now place 30 gets 4,55% of place 10, with this scale it would be 22,22% So the monetery incentive to ride for 10th place instead of 30th would decrease. (From 11-20 though the % would stay similar to now, place 15-19 even a bit more percentage wise now then with this proposal.

Third proposal

Top 3 places according to the category

Basic

110k+10k*cat
65k+5k*cat
50k+2,5k*cat

Would be
1 2 3 4 5 6
120000 130000 140000 150000 160000 340000
70000 75000 80000 85000 90000 190000
52500 55000 57500 60000 62500 130000



Cat six double everything, like now. Cat 1-5 only change the money from the top 3. Using the system from proposal nr 2 then the total would be

Cat 1 642k
cat 2 659,5k,
cat 3 677k,
cat 4 694,5k
cat 5 712k
Cat 6 1,459 Mio.

Now it's 639'600 for cat 1-5 and the double, 1'279'200 for Cat 6, the monuments. The increase is all concentrated in the first 3 places, for those of you who paid attention (actually mean myself mostly...) will remember that in proposal 2 places 4-40 lost 20'100. And since from 4-40 we use the same one here that stays true.

So in ONE DAY RACES the win becomes more valuable money wise. Which is what Buhmann wants if I understood him correctly.

Proposal nr 4, yeah, had only 3 when I started, just came up with nr 4 while smoking. Don't like it actually, mostly here in case somebody else wants to propose it, preemptive counter argument.

1-10 decreasing as now
11-20 same amount of money
21-30 same amount of money

Sounds good at first glance, the big problem though is: The break from 20-21, 30-31 would probably have to be fairly big if we want more or less the same amount of money as now, and still "spread the money around" (which is necessary since prize money at RSF has a different meaning than in real life pro cycling (there should be money in every day cycling as well I think, I usually win or end up in the top 10 in my imaginary races while cycling around in Shanghai). So that would mean that riding for place 11-20 instead of 21-30 would become very popular, even if its only 10k for 11-20 vs 5 k for 21-30. or something like that. You basically double you prize money. No good.


Ok, this is the apeish proposal for ONE DAY RACES

NOt for Tours, not for stages.

Next Tours:

GC:End of Tours:

Points: As I said, just to complicated to change that somehow. As said, the factor gives some strange results with big not very logical steps from one place to the next, then ministeps for a while, but just too complicated to figure out something sensible in a week.

Money: Here IMO the biggest problem. GTs work fairly well as they are. Don't really see a need to increase the winners money. Actually. Or cut too much. Maybe again around place nr 7 a bit steeper. But not too much. After all we don't want to take the "safety net" away, ok, I don't want. You can start with an expensive team, with chances to win, but without having the big favorite. From 1-5 everything is possible. By increasing the money for the winner, or by cutting too much and/or too early you just make harder for those teams (and I think I'm usually one of them to compete) Either you buy the superleader that IS the favorite (and most of the time that means lots of TT) or you cut back generally, because otherwise you risk not surviving. That's for GTs. A general upgrade of GT money, not really good either, even now teams are expensive, too expensive almost, but if we just increase the money overall, they won't get cheaper, on the contrary, the limit will be pushed higher.
Small tours on the other hand just pay like hell for cheap teams, here I would really like to see something according to the category, not only for the top, but for everything. As I said, don't think much of increasing money for GTs, so that leaves: Cut money for cat 1-4. Here 2 ways 2 do it:
1: Have a fixed scale for all tours: Then a percentage, cat 5=100%, cat 4 95% cat 3 90% cat 2 85% cat 1 80%, something like that. The winner of a cat 1 tour, 5 days, then would get 200k instead of 250k now. Etc.
2: Basically cut the money at the bottom. Right now cat 1 place 40 gets the same amount of money as cat 5. Same number of riders get money everywhere. Change that, cat 5 as now (or even give money to everybody that finishes a GT, 50 a day, no problem, just as a small thank you for finishing it) Cat 4 only top 35, cat 3 top 30, cat 2 25, cat 1 top 20

Example with sligth adjustment to the basic scale for cat 5 too. From cat 5 to cat 1 here

1 50000 50000 50000 50000 50000
2 35000 35000 35000 35000 35000
3 25000 25000 25000 25000 25000
4 20000 20000 20000 20000 20000
5 17500 17500 17000 16000 15000
6 15000 15000 14000 12000 10000
7 13500 13500 12000 9000 9000
8 12000 12000 10000 7000 8000
9 11000 11000 9000 6000 7000
10 10000 10000 8000 5000 6000
11 9000 9000 7500 4500 5000
12 8500 8500 7000 4000 4500
13 8000 8000 6500 3500 4000
14 7500 7500 6000 3000 3500
15 7000 7000 5500 2500 3000
16 6500 6500 5000 2000 2500
17 6000 6000 4500 1500 2000
18 5500 5500 4000 1000 1500
19 5000 5000 3500 1000 1000
20 4500 4500 3000 800 500
21 4000 4000 2500 600
22 3500 3500 2000 400
23 3000 3000 1500 200
24 2500 2500 1000 100
25 2000 2000 800 50
26 1500 1500 600
27 1000 1000 400
28 900 900 200
29 800 800 100
30 700 700 50
31 600 600
32 500 400
33 450 300
34 400 200
35 350 100
36 300
37 250
38 200
39 150
40 100
299700 298000 261650 210150 212500

Total money per day, would decrease as well during a GT, right now it's 319'800. And for GTs giving everybody that fnishes 50 credits per day would still not hurt, why not. Little present, the TdF gives at least 400 Euros to every finisher as well. Ok, wouldn't make up the difference.



stages:

-Points. Here I think a change in the points would be ok. From the system now, basically 100-70-50-40-35-30- (all in percentages) etc to a "steeper system" The points the winner gets shouldn't change IMO.

Money: Here depends on what happens with the GC money as well. If Buh insists the same for all categories then here should be the same as well, if he agrees to some cat-dependent things, then here too.

Wearing jerseys: That's it all started...

By now I want a more radical approach though.

MONEY: If it's the same for all cats.

Leader 10k
Points, young, mountain 5k per day.

That really is enough. Yeah, for cat 5 it should be higher, but if Buh wants all the same, then it has to be something like that. Here a link to german wikipedia that shows how the prize money is given in reality, how much monetary worth the jerseys have at the TdF

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_de_Fr ... reisgelder

So 350 for yellow, 300 for the others per day. A stage win is worth 8000. So less than 5% of that. Of course we don't need to go that low, for the TdF I would go for 20-10 for the rest. But that's WAY to high for all other races, so... 10-5 I say.

Now if Buhmann agrees to an influence of the category:

Cat:-------- Cat 5 Cat 4 Cat 3 Cat 2and 1
Leader -------20 15 10 10
Points/KOM--15 10 7,5 5
young ---------10 5 5 5

Ok. If all the same, 10-5 is more than enough. Even at the TdF the most combative rider gets more than the wearer of a jersey..

Points: Tie it to a place on the stage. If the stage points get changed, well, have to see then, if not

Leader: Place 4 or 5
Points/KOM: Place 15
young place 20

Jerseys at the end.

Points: Tie it to a place in the GC. yellow of course is taken care of, the rest
points/KOM= place nr 10 +/-
young=place nr 15 +/-

MONEY: Increase that.
20 k mountain and points
10 k young

Both double from what it is now. That would increase the overall money per day at the end of the tour as well, add that to the money mentioned somewhere above.

Here of course would be better to have it per category as well.

Cat:-------- Cat 5 Cat 4 Cat 3 Cat 2and 1
Points/KOM--20 20 15 10
young ---------15 10 10 5

Seems about right.

Mmh, think that's it, in case I forgot something I might rewrite the whole post just to include everything in one post.

[Robyklebt]

Ups, forgot the Team classification.

Needs reform too, nothing prepared here though. Only one thing. Stop the x by riders by day. Cut the riders, shouldn't matter if you finish with 9 or 3. If those 3 manage to win the Team classification, the team should get the same amount of money. Making it by riders only encourages defensive riding to get the extra money at the end of the tour.

[Buhmann]

Uff, not time to read all this now.

But the introduction i still read...

We value first place more than the UCI. From place 2-9 the UCI gives more points than we do. So I see no reason to cut 4-10 at least. From then on we give more points. But it's a different system as well, 30-40 riders get points, much less in real races. If we want to cut points from 11 on, we have to stop giving points earlier as well I think.

I want do decrease money/points for place 4th-40th of tours and increase money/points for winning stages not because of the reality. I want this to have better races and options for the teams. Now i must have a rider which is good for the classement (a climber...). And if you have such a 86er or 85er, you must ride with him very defensivly, because you need to have a good place at the end of the tour. Better would be, that the classement is not really important, but rather usefull to try to win a race.
The same for sprinter teams: If they would earn more money for winning a race, maybe there would be more teams without a climber.

If we want to have realistic points okay. But maybe we could change the money, so that we have the most interesting races.

[Robyklebt]

Read the whole thing, not only the introduction. Print it out, take it to the office, read it when you go to the toilet.

And look at points and money separately, right now they are tied to each other, but that doesn't have to be the case.