cycling4freaks.com

Dear RSF community,

Recently, people were excited a lot about TUTTIFRUTTI expensive team. He makes nothing wrong, but all have questions about how he can build an expensive team like that, how he is able to have positive finances, if he has not another team.... It is maybe a good time to define or redefine some financial rules for Cycling4Freaks, make some proposals, discuss about it. I don't know if the game has a interest to improve this part of the game, if we want a bit more financial management but looks the good moment to open this topic in my opinion.

A) Debt limit:

Actually when we have negative finance absolutely nothing happen when a team has his finances in negative. For some managers, to be able to ride with a big debt is an injustice, whereas some teams make all they can to be always in positive. I think we have 3 options :

1) Change nothing. Teams can ride else if they have -20M debt, ride till all their riders are too old to ride, create another team, and wait for reset the actual. A good way for multis/farmers/transitions teams in my opinion.

2) Reintroduce -100k rule. Impossible to sign in a race if we have less than -100k, no need to develop it more.

3) A new idea (or maybe no), if finance is between -200k and 0 the team can race only if his lineup is equal or under the salary cover. If finance is under -200k, the team can't ride. I propose it because it isn't impossible to have some financial accident after Classics or a GT when we normally bring our best lineup. Like that we can let a chance to health our finance without sell a rider when the debt isn't big.


B) Reset

Actually it is impossible to reset if we aren't in Div 6 or Div 7. So a team in Div 1, if the manager want reset, should wait 5-6 month before he can do it. It is a really big time if finance is negative and/or finance not competitive anymore. And it can incite the manager to create a multi, a sort of transition team. So allow a team reset since div 4 isn't a bad idea I think, the manager has less chance to lose his motivation for the game, and it is easier to reorganize the team too.


C) The market

1) Youth market for Div 6
Actually market for Div (1-5) and Div 6 are separate, with 2 differents systems to buy riders. Some teams can profit about youth market in div 6 for farming, for X or Y reasons. So I propose :
- Weaken riders in this market. Alkworld already maid a post about that recently.

- Make a system by auction for div 6 too. I am not for it, but it is an option.

- Cancel youth market for Div 6. I don't think it is really useful, if a new team or a manager who comeback want ride, he can already buy in the principal market. It isn't impossible to see a team buy 4-5 riders, let them grow up 5-6 month before to sell them profiting of the low tax they have, like that there are more money to buy riders, not sure the game need this kind of tricks. And by cancel youth market for Div 6, it can give a higher interest for Div (1-5) youth market.
- Change the limit. Create a youth market for Div (1-3) and a market for Div (4-6), with young riders who are stronger for Div (1-3) than for div (4-6).

2) Low cost riders on market:
- The actual limit for low cost riders is 3 per teams. It is maybe an incitement for some managers to buy big leaders with big salary like that else if they have only 9 riders and can't manage it with a long term vision. I think we can lower this limit at 2 riders, looks already enough.
- I don't know if it is possible, but let Div (1-5) free riders join Div 6 market (Or Div (1-3) free rider join Div (4-6) market) if nobody buy them after a certain time, for example 30 days. We can also imagine a rotation between both markets.

D) Salary cover / Prize money

Actually we have category 1-5 races with the same dotations and the category 6 which double the prize money. It seems a bit weird, imo, to have TDF or Giro with the same financial power than La Tropicale Amissa Bongo. Because of that some people thinks that there is too much money race in the game. To change that I see 2 ways for the moment

1) Salary cover depends of the category of the race. We can give a coefficient to change it. Imagine cat 3 race has for equivalence the actual 9 riders = 375.000$/team = coefficient 1. We can think about something like that :

With 9 riders / team

Cat 1 = coeff 0.9 = 337.500$
Cat 2 = coeff 0.95 = 356.250$
Cat 3 = coeff 1 = 375.000$
Cat 4 = coeff 1.05 = 394.750$
Cat 5 = coeff 1.1 = 412.500$
Cat 6 = coeff 1.15 = 431.250$

With 8 riders / team:

Cat 1 = coeff 0.9 = 301.500$
cat 2 = coeff 0.95 = 318.250$
cat 3 = coeff 1 = 335.000$
cat 4 = coeff 1.05 = 351.750$
cat 5 = coeff 1.1 = 368.500$
cat 6 = coeff 1.15 = 385.250$

With 7 riders / team:

cat 1 = coeff 0.9 = 265.500$
cat 2 = coeff 0.95 = 280.250$
cat 3 = coeff 1 = 295.000$
cat 4 = coeff 1.05 = 309.750$
cat 5 = coeff 1.1 = 324.500$
cat 6 = coeff 1.15 = 339.250$

With 6 riders / team:

cat 1 = coeff 0.9 = 229.500$
cat 2 = coeff 0.95 = 242.250$
cat 3 = coeff 1 = 255.000$
cat 4 = coeff 1.05 = 267.750$
cat 5 = coeff 1.1 = 280.500$
cat 6 = coeff 1.15 = 293.250$

Like that it give more importance at big race, and less importance at minor race see only as "money race".

2)Prize money

We can maybe change the actual prize money for end of races and tour which are maybe excessive for some managers. In my eyes it is a hard balance to find, I don't know if it is better if less riders gain prize at the end, or if they should win less.

I surely forget some financials points but I have no idea anymore. Anyway the objective of this post isn't to have 50 modifications, but just to open a real discussion about money in the game. Thanks for read it and sorry for my bad english!

Dear Mr. Buh,

before taking part here...i'm interested...let's assume...a 10 page discussion, 15-20 users involved, telling their pro and contra...a good final proposal stands as result...do you have time to implement the proposal or would it be wasted time to talk about it?

A) Debt Limit will be reintroduced
100.000 or more ... maybe 250.000

B) Reset possibility for Div4 and Div5 for me OK

C) the market
Your ideas dont make me dreaming.

I dont like the selling transfer Tax for rich teams, it is not realistic for me but it seems that it doesn´t stay to discussion.
More realistic for me, bigger salary for high division riders for same riders.

D) Salary Cover
1) we could but we mustn´t
I am more for a maximal salary limit dependent from cat.

lesossies wrote:More realistic for me, bigger salary for high division riders for same riders.

i want to make sure, i understood you right...

does your sentence mean, that a 72/80/68/52/50 should cost more salary when he's riding for a div1 team..f.e. 62K for the Div1 Team and 55K for the Div3 Team?

leso rote:
A) Debt Limit will be reintroduced
100.000 or more ... maybe 250.000

thumbs up! just do it. just make it -200.000 - that´s probably sth. everybody can live with it.

Rockstar Inc wrote:
i want to make sure, i understood you right...

does your sentence mean, that a 72/80/68/52/50 should cost more salary when he's riding for a div1 team..f.e. 62K for the Div1 Team and 55K for the Div3 Team?

if it is meant like that, then it´s not a good idea.I can give arguments, if Leso really means it that way.

Poke wrote:
Cancel youth market for Div 6. I don't think it is really useful, if a new team or a manager who comeback want ride, he can already buy in the principal market.

i would like the idea of just weakening the riders and give less riders there better. I would probably not started playing again without the possibility of buying youth riders. riders from the normal market are boring.

Rockstar Inc wrote:

lesossies wrote:More realistic for me, bigger salary for high division riders for same riders.

i want to make sure, i understood you right...

does your sentence mean, that a 72/80/68/52/50 should cost more salary when he's riding for a div1 team..f.e. 62K for the Div1 Team and 55K for the Div3 Team?

Correct !
Big teams have a better staff, can better pay and give surely more money pro rider.
But I cannot say how much we could do it ... between 5% and 10% maybe, but I see , you dont like this idea

lesossies wrote:

Rockstar Inc wrote:

lesossies wrote:More realistic for me, bigger salary for high division riders for same riders.

i want to make sure, i understood you right...

does your sentence mean, that a 72/80/68/52/50 should cost more salary when he's riding for a div1 team..f.e. 62K for the Div1 Team and 55K for the Div3 Team?

Correct !
Big teams have a better staff, can better pay and give surely more money pro rider.
But I cannot say how much we could do it ... between 5% and 10% maybe, but I see , you dont like this idea

If big teams have a better staff, they can better pay but they can give better training too . Anyway for the same lineup, when team A with only div 6 riders has a lineup at 500k, team B with only div 1-5 riders will pay 525k Another tax + 70% selling tax...looks François Hollande and his french government style ! Maybe a selling tax at 50% is enough ?

lesossies wrote:A) Debt Limit will be reintroduced
100.000 or more ... maybe 250.000

B) Reset possibility for Div4 and Div5 for me OK

C) the market
Your ideas dont make me dreaming.

I dont like the selling transfer Tax for rich teams, it is not realistic for me but it seems that it doesn´t stay to discussion.
More realistic for me, bigger salary for high division riders for same riders.

D) Salary Cover
1) we could but we mustn´t
I am more for a maximal salary limit dependent from cat.

a) good
b) I prefer not. D6 reset only is ok.
c) the youth market D6 has too strong riders, eliminating that would be good. There Buh has had detailed posts from half the members, no need to re iterate all. If necessary FL is usually well informed about that.
d) Very interesting. RKL likes it. If you mean cut the sales tax and put something else in. BUT. with the limited time Buhmann has right now I'd prefer NOT changing it for the moment. If it doesn't work well we then risk being stuck with a bad system for years (or decades) But I like the theory, away from the sales tax, which would increase sales of riders too, good. Problem is finding the right balance, so that big teams don't just get richer and richer. Just 10% probably wouldn't do it... Interesting proposal, like it, but... complicated, unless we know for sure that Buh has the time not only to implement it, but to adjust something like that countless times.... not the time to introduce it.
e) Not a big fan of that to be honest. I'd rather have a "sperre" "barrier?" by eternal points:) Which probably wouldn't have the effect desired by you, but the one by me:) Established riders don't ride complete shit races. (ok, and don't ride at all in winter, which isn't perfect)

ich schreib erstmal auf deutsch und übersetze es später

Mir geht es vorallem um die Gehaltsgrenzen:
Immoment haben wir das einfache System 375k für 9 Fahrer 335k für 8 usw.. Dies ist einfach und schnell zu verstehen und leicht mit umzugehen.

Mein Vorschlag, wenn man dieses ändern will, dann sollte man neben der Kategorie des Rennens zusätzlich noch die Anzahl der Teams, deren Division Zugehörigkeit und die Gehälter der Teams für dieses Rennen miteinbeziehen. Denn im letzten und vorletzten Monat sind Klassiker mit Kat 4 gefahren worden, in denen nur 4 vielleicht 5 Teams waren. Dieses wird an sich durch die unter 90 Fahrer also 10 Team regel minimiert, aber warum nicht einfach mit in die Gehaltsgrenze miteinbeziehen (Prämie ähnlich).
Außerdem ist für das Prestige des Rennens und damit für die ausgeschütteten Prämien bzw Gehaltsübernahme wichtig, wie stark die einzelnen Teams sind, die am Rennen teilnehmen. Dies könnte man durch einbeziehen der Division zugehörgkeit und der Gehälter für das Rennen mit einrechnen. So bringen 2 aus der ersten Division das gleiche Ansehen mit, wie 6 aus der 6. Division, bei gleichen Gehälter( als Beispiel gedacht).

Wie genau die Verhältnisse sein sollen, müsste man sich dann überlegen.

Robyklebt wrote:

lesossies wrote:A) Debt Limit will be reintroduced
100.000 or more ... maybe 250.000

B) Reset possibility for Div4 and Div5 for me OK

C) the market
Your ideas dont make me dreaming.

I dont like the selling transfer Tax for rich teams, it is not realistic for me but it seems that it doesn´t stay to discussion.
More realistic for me, bigger salary for high division riders for same riders.

D) Salary Cover
1) we could but we mustn´t
I am more for a maximal salary limit dependent from cat.

a) good
b) I prefer not. D6 reset only is ok.
c) the youth market D6 has too strong riders, eliminating that would be good. There Buh has had detailed posts from half the members, no need to re iterate all. If necessary FL is usually well informed about that.
d) Very interesting. RKL likes it. If you mean cut the sales tax and put something else in. BUT. with the limited time Buhmann has right now I'd prefer NOT changing it for the moment. If it doesn't work well we then risk being stuck with a bad system for years (or decades) But I like the theory, away from the sales tax, which would increase sales of riders too, good. Problem is finding the right balance, so that big teams don't just get richer and richer. Just 10% probably wouldn't do it... Interesting proposal, like it, but... complicated, unless we know for sure that Buh has the time not only to implement it, but to adjust something like that countless times.... not the time to introduce it.
e) Not a big fan of that to be honest. I'd rather have a "sperre" "barrier?" by eternal points:) Which probably wouldn't have the effect desired by you, but the one by me:) Established riders don't ride complete shit races. (ok, and don't ride at all in winter, which isn't perfect)

Agree with RKL almost about everything (but where is the point e) in Leso statement?).

About salary, removing sales tax OK. But how it is calculated the salary at the moment? In my opinion at least 4 factors should be taken into consideration:

1) Skill: better is a rider and better is his wage.
2) Palmares Victory: More he wins more he gets (and more you get too with the prizes)
3) Ethernal Points: A rider who has more prestige will want more money. A bit related to point 2) but imo it covers different things.
4) Money to buy him: more you pay a rider and higher gets his wage. I mean, if you pay a pavè rider 4M when his value is 2M because you think it will be the next PR winner, well then the salary should be increased accordingly to the offer.

Point 2 and 3 should replace Leso's idea without feeling penalized. A team in Div1 is there because he has won more then a team in Div 3 (at least in the last two months), so the salary for the Div 1 team will be higher, but without any standard %. Just more you win and more moneys your stars will ask.

Point 4 should give a better competition in the auction, so that not only teams with lots of money can buy the best riders. Surely they can by making an incredible offer but they will take also a high risk.

It's been months teams like Tutti or Adriano ride with teams between 600-700k every tour (f.e today they do 215-225k loss for stage 1 !) and can survive thanks to low cost riders on one side :

2) Low cost riders on market:
- The actual limit for low cost riders is 3 per teams. It is maybe an incitement for some managers to buy big leaders with big salary like that else if they have only 9 riders and can't manage it with a long term vision. I think we can lower this limit at 2 riders, looks already enough.

On other side maybe they survive now on some money reserve they were able to make thanks to strong team they farmed at the beginning (for some of them) :

Cancel youth market for Div 6. I don't think it is really useful, if a new team or a manager who comeback want ride, he can already buy in the principal market. It isn't impossible to see a team buy 4-5 riders, let them grow up 5-6 month before to sell them profiting of the low tax they have, like that there are more money to buy riders, not sure the game need this kind of tricks. And by cancel youth market for Div 6, it can give a higher interest for Div (1-5) youth market.
- Change the limit. Create a youth market for Div (1-3) and a market for Div (4-6), with young riders who are stronger for Div (1-3) than for div (4-6).

c) the youth market D6 has too strong riders, eliminating that would be good. There Buh has had detailed posts from half the members, no need to re iterate all. If necessary FL is usually well informed about that.

Some managers, new or not so new are now trying to follow that model and plan to be inactive for a while to drop to D6 as soon as possible in order to build a strong team from there. They realized that trying to be competitive in div2-3-4 is impossible vs these teams coming straight from D6 with monsters teams, and/or using market transfer a lot with money they made out of farming.

I think action need to be taken to give a chance to smaller teams without using that way to reach the top and limit that way of ''cheating''. Because these teams are playing at high level for few months and then go bankrupt, that's not really the model that should prevail in RSF, or is it ?

C) the market
Your ideas dont make me dreaming.

What do you propose then ? Is it totally ok and good to have these teams popping out of nowhere, smashing it for 3-6-9months, not giving a chance to the one who took 1 year to build a team to be competitive vs them, and then disappearing (manager probably have another team which was farming next ready to take now) ?