Introduction of different form-curves

[NoPikouze]

Hello dear users and Buhmann,

I have a proposal for you all to make this game even more enjoyable, if that's possible.
Actually, I had my cheap assistant OLMania writing me a text, but I'm not really sure I can post that. Tough choice between making OL angry, or looking like an idiot myself. Hmm well I like to upset OL anyway, so I guess that will do it.

Ok back to the topic.
I would like to introduce some kind of "personnality" to the riders, by giving everyone his own type of form-curve. Ok, not one different for each rider, but at least a couple of different curves. At this moment, every rider has the same physical ability, the same kind of training, the same evolution (regarding the forms). And also, in comparison to their opponents, more or less the same objectives every season. So, in the end, there is not such a big difference between 2 riders, climbers for example. All you can do is have your form a couple of days earlier or later than your opponents.

Looking at the reality, there are also different types of riders regarding their form. Some people have a shorter topform, some people a longer topform, etc... I guess we all know that, or do we need to get more specific ?
That's why I created a couple of new form-curves, taking in account the average form (92,5. Actually, 2775 points in a 30 days month) and also a little bit the number of days of "good form" (more than 95) and "bad form" (less than 90). I thought of a couple of possibilities with Olmania. Perhaps we forgot some options. For sure, some of our propositions are improvable. Here are the graphs I have created for now.
I'm sorry it's a bit small but otherwise the forum cuts parts of it...




The first 5 and one of the last 2 are really my favorites. But we can discuss this a bit later.
Once again, I checked the numbers, all these curves are quite balanced, even if sometimes it might not look so at first sight.


But ok, this is only the first part. Let's now get to the second part: the implementation.
My idea is to give every rider at his "birth" his own curve, his own phenotype. Which is fix, and not revealed until you buy the rider. That would be too easy, picking the type you want, and also unrealistic. So, it would be a random attribution, and you get to know which one you have only once the rider is in the team.

Hmm for once I'm going to use OL's text now.

Our proposal is that every rider has his own curve, randomly. It’s impossible to see it when you buy the rider, you will discover his curve during the first season you ride with this rider. Every day you see the form, and the curve is revealed step by step. Then, you will know the curve of your rider after few weeks, even if the month is not ended. Every rider can have another tab on his own page like “form curve”.
The manager won’t have to choose the day of topform, because it’s impossible with these curves. The manager will have to choose the form for the 1st day of the month according to the possibilities offered by the curve of the rider. We can imagine a different display in the form tab of RSF. We can imagine a layer of the calendar with the forms details for each day according to the specific curve of the rider. So, this will be easy for the manager to choose the value for the 1st day of form because he will be able to have a look to the everyday form for the complete month with the specific curve and form evolution of his rider.

Every curve we made has its advantages and inconvenient, we expect that you will discuss about the idea and the curves. We know that some of them are not excellent, not perfect ... but we wanted to show you everything to let you choose and give your opinions about this work.
/olmania.


All in all, I like this idea. Ok it's mine, I guess that's why. People will have to deal with the "personallity" of their riders. And excepted the form-planning page, it should not even be too hard to implement, since the only changing data will be the form value everyday.

Is anyone interested in a discussion about it ? Is there any chance this will be done during next year ?
I'm pretty sure I forgot a lot of my arguments in this post. I'm just going to send it and see what happens.

Thanks for reading

[Zentaron]

So more random and less influence for the teamchef? Or what is with planned high form for special races? Sure, you never can be sure in reality that the rider has the topform that day, but he will have it some days before or later for sure. How is this possible with your proposal?

[NoPikouze]

I'm not sure I got your point.

Once you know the curve of your rider, you can plan the form each month in the usual way. Then everyday you have the planned evolution. But not every rider has the same kind of evolution, that's all.

If you want to add a random part to this? Hmm I dont know... I guess there could/should be some sort of random factor at the month change which puts the formcurve/topform 1 to 3 days later/earlier as planned. Would make sense.

And also from one month to ther other(30th to 1st), you should not be able to have more than +/- 5 formpoints, that's also a bit weird... But that's something for the Monkey.

[sylvainmeteo]

Just like it, the actual system is too mechanical and predictable, all the guys who can see that a guy in top form now will be in low form 15 days after, with the NoPik's proposal, we will have lot of others options/combinaisons and could make the races more unpredictable and exciting...
This is a great idea, but to put it in RSF (for Buhmann) seems not to be easy ^^

[Zentaron]

No no, NoPik, I don't want to add more random, I want to have less. The training (and the sprint (I especially said this for you, Buh. )) is much too much random so far.^^
I think i didn't got your point. So with your second post i understood it better and i'm okay with it.

[flockmastoR]

like this idea very much

more to come

[olmania]

My original text creation was better, especially the introduction.

[exocds]

I like this idea.
Let's see if it possible for Buhman.

[Pedrocito]

hmm, yeah, interessant way of thinking.
but I guess you can create one type of rider more: those without objectives, with the same form all year long; called "helper" or "gregario".
they could have average form value, 90, 92, I don't know...
unlucky if you buy a leader like that, but it's randomisation game

[NoPikouze]

Graphic nr 2

[Pedrocito]

yeah, but not as horizontal as I think

[Zentaron]

Don't give him any form, like it is now.

[Robyklebt]

My main problem.

I don't see the graphics. Well, some, some half, some full, some not at all, don't ask me why.

Probably when I see the rest of the graphic one day I'll have more to complain....

[Buhmann]

Setting a form is even stressfull. With another curve, i won´t be easier..

[olmania]

My main problem.

I don't see the graphics. Well, some, some half, some full, some not at all, don't ask me why.

Probably when I see the rest of the graphic one day I'll have more to complain....

Chinese leaders dislike the work of french engineers !

Setting a form is even stressfull. With another curve, i won´t be easier..

you mean for you, as programmer/encoder ? or as a rsf player ?

[iBanesto]

Setting a form is even stressfull. With another curve, i won´t be easier..

Want to display the curve for the next month in a nice way? How about something like this:

Topform on the 12th, old form curve like we have now

Marco Pantani 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 + -

Form for every day of the month in a nice visual form, all Buh needs to do is calculate the color codes according to the riders curve. + and - are buttons to shift the form curve left and right.

[Buhmann]

I mean for a player olmania!

But if we display the curve better, like iban explained, it could works.

[flockmastoR]

I mean for a player olmania!

But if we display the curve better, like iban explained, it could works.

Would make sense to show it graphically like in the first post. So you put in the form for the first day of the new month and then it shows you the possible figures for that settings and you see on first sight what the form would be for any day of the months? But as there are some figures with more than 2 times the same form value i think thats not that great.

Would be cool to have it like that:

For each rider you have a new tab with the title: Form
Here you can decide wheter this rider should have form or not (the constant form should still be possible and be preset for each rider every month)
If you klick decide for form the picture with the form shape of the rider shows up (or is there the whole time and now gets changable) as shown in the first post, with a right arrow and a left arrow on the day scale. Now you can by klicking on the arrows, adjust the form shape to your wishes and see the form for every day immediatly.
Dont know if its a hell of work for buh.

[Lizard]

Really like the idea of implementing different kinds of form curves. Also the idea to make it random. And all the "what, even more random?" blabla kinda creeps me out by now. Seriously, good manager + good rider will make wins for sure. It's not the kind of random which imbalances the gameplay like totally. It just slightly increases options. So I like it.

[Robyklebt]

Ok, as I said I don't see all these graphs.... how many are there in total?

Slow rise a+b: What about fast rise? the complete opposite? Yes, from 0 to 100 form in only a few days is not really realistic, true, but what slow rise a+b are isn't either. Nobodys form just drops like that. What often happens of course is that the rider stops riding after his peak... to prepare for the next goal. Or finish the season like Armstrong used too. So if we have the slow rises, add the fast rises for game play.

Then one thing.... the no top form... mmh, is that really good? I don't think so actually. Yes, some riders are less "peaky".. .Evans, Contador for example. they bring their results as soon as they ride. But IMO that doesn't mean they are never at 100 percent form. One is the mindset, tourists like A. Schleck and Cancellara that only ride seriously their few goal per season, vs others who ride more. Ok, that's included if we want, but the non-tourists still get up to 100 form IMO. now waves 2 which I see goes only to 96 top form. That's one point less in the ned. Even if the guy get's 2 peaks IMO he will be clearly disadvantaged. He'll have a 3 day peak I guess (don't see the days at the bottom on that one...) twice. Looks like before one third of the month.. 6+3+12+3+6 Something like that? That's what it looks like... so his 2 peaks are 12 days apart which most of the time will be too many. OK, mostly talking about GC guys here actually. Often it's 2 weekend 3 weekend of a GT that counts. Here this guy will have 3 weekend "top". 96-96-96. The classical form too, 98-99-100 in his case. 0,5-1 point better. Weekend 2 will be.....don't know, don't see the bottom, but looks like it goes to 90 or 89... so 91-90-89 or 91-90-91 while the classical form will have 91-92-3. Still better. Then yes, first weekend, big advantage, the wavey boy will have near topform, the classic one bottom. Problem is, in most GTs he will have it for absolutely nothing. So, even though the numbers finally add up it seems, the waves boy is clearly at a disadvantage IMO. Waves ok, but make them in a way that it's not a disadvantage in 99 of 100 cases!

Ah, the point about random, chance. The difference here is: This in unpaid luck. Trainings luck, you pay for it. Sprint and TT luck, you're not stuck with it. 1 km luck, one km bad luck, changes every km. Here you're stuck with your luck, form curve, plus you don't pay for it. And from the 6 I see I could clearly say which one I wouldn't want for my riders. No thanks to waves for all leaders. Don't think I'd want it for helpers either. The slow rises on the other hand are good for leaders, you reach 100, with B you even get to be at 100 for 3 days. For GC guys, great. A you seem only to have 11 days under 91 form. Stairs A seems pointless for anybody in my team, yes, 18 days at 93 plus, cool, but well, with normal I get 15 days of that (and 5 at 98+) and 13 at 94+, with the stairs only 10? 11? Stairs B ok. at first sight, might not mind that in my team. POint is, of the 6 proposed ones, some for me are clearly worse than others, then I'm stuck with brilliance or with shit, and pay or don't pay for it. So, make them more equal. NOt all to 100? Ok, but 98 should be the minimum max. And if only to 98, should get more than 5 days at 98, not going down to 85 doesn't make up for the no top form, since very often if it's one day races you'll simply not ride with your 85-86-87 form guy.

edit: Since 93% of users here are too dumb to usually understand what I'm saying, have to put in this disclaimer: That doesn't mean I'm against the principle of other form curves, randomly, the principle, yep, ok. Just don't really like some of the proposed ones.

Ah, and what I definetly will oppose is: Having to figure otu what form curve my rider has. Can we keep mindnumbing writing down of stuff to know stuff at a minimum? Just show me what form curve system my riders have...

mmh, this edit will never finish.. what about a 2 month curve as one option? Not one at 92+ one month at 91-, but a better month, followed by a worse one.. something like that? But I'll leave the number crunching to NoPik.

[NoPikouze]

For sure these curves are no final versions, we need to consider several elements. And perhaps youre right, less low doesnt compensate less high. We need to discuss this kind of things. Ill work a bit more on it, also remove the useless one with stairs, and give you the numbers here.
Oh and if anyone has an idea of another curve type, it could be interesting as well.

My original plan was: approx 5 different types, not too much. And for the riders you own you have a line formtype: a/b/c...

About the personnal preferences or the slight advantages of some curves... Can be discussed. Balance is needed. But its also a bit irrelevant because you cannot choose it. Rider X has a quick/short/flat form. Thats it. Thats HIM.

[team fl]

I don't get it. Why do we need these different form-curvers? Just because more is more?

I like the current system, because you really have to think about it and to decide on which race/stage/tour you focus with a rider. So I
a) don't see a need here nor do I
b) see an additional value for the game.

I really like iBans proposal though.

[olmania]

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