pave-hills

[Quick]

Muur van Geraardsbergen, Koppenberg, Kemmelberg, Bosberg. They are THAT deciding in the real races... in our races - just lame. Nearly noone gets siebd in our flandern races. The ones who tried an attack terribly failed...just lame. Maybe Buhman can change the pave-mountain physic for next year...
Or am i the only one who sees the problem?

[olmania]

Muur van Geraardsbergen, Koppenberg, Kemmelsberg, Bosberg. They are THAT deciding in the real races... in our races - just lame. Nearly noone gets siebd in our flandern races. The ones who tried an attack terribly failed...just lame. Maybe Buhman can change the pave-mountain physic for next year...
Or am i the only one who sees the problem?

I said the same thing in the public chatbox of your race today. I think we will have to discuss to change something for next year
The pavé have to be more selective ... or th attacks stronger on the pavé ... or I don't know, but we have to change a little thing in my opinion

[Quick]

In fact, i discovered that the Molenberg 5* was very selective in our race too...just rode it to soft..., but it's strange. 5* seems to be more selective than 8***...
Needed to be more selective - maybe as ***** or even harder...

[olmania]

In fact, i discovered that the Molenberg 5* was very selective in our race too...just rode it to soft..., but it's strange. 5* seems to be more selective than 8***...
Needed to be more selective - maybe as ***** or even harder...

Maybe because in the 8*** you had only the favos, with same skills and good energy.
My opinion :
pavé more selective are necesseray
attack on pavé : a bonus. A block have to be harder. Because it's true in the real race, if you do a big tempo, nobody will attack because they will be dropped. In RSF, thay stay in the wheel (like a normal 8% for example). But in a pavé hill, a little acceleration during 200m can create 20m space between two guys or groups and it's enough to win the race sometimes (like today in the real Ronde).

but I don't know if it's possible ^^ and a lot of people will disagree, of course.

[Robyklebt]

I disagree.

It's the old problem, pavé or no pavé, it's the same.. hills, flat, 2 different skills required, often the best in one skill usually are not that good in the other. 90-60 vs 46-90, or 75-78 vs 60-85 etc. the problem then is, that unlike in reality the dropped riders come back easily. And are not weaker in any way... not less power than somebody who stayed in front. You can be dropped 50 times and come back 50 times. In reality after the 25th time probably you'd be gone. Not here, power is the most important, you don't lose power when dropped..you have support riders, they bring you back. no problem. Solution? Change the whole system somehow... don't know. Or make helping" less important. So that a 75-80 that helps is is still stronger than a 67-78 that get's help, which is not the case right now..

At Flanders now we don't only have the usual flat-mountain combination, or the pavé flat combination (that is fun because it's different, because for once the ones that are dropped will stay the weakest, since the strong pavé rider usually have more flat than the dropped ones (even though Buhmann does his best to change that by offering Duculescus on the transfer market) but mountain-flat, pavé-flat, and pavé-mountain flat. Which means at every "sieb" a different kind of rider is in front.. Then the RSF helping system makes sure that sooner or later you have to concentrate on one leader. Some very good specialized teams maybe can keep too, normal teams 1. The others are support riders. Almost everybody can be dropped at one point or another, and still be brought back after that, then at the bottom of the muur we have 15 leaders with lots of power and 20-30 support riders with less power. Then what happened yesterday? In all 3 editions I saw the strongest riders for the Muur either did nothing or attacked. Tempo by support riders, who had less energy then the leaders of the other teams. No wonder you don't drop anybody.. it's because the riders that make tempo are too weak. An attack is senseless, unless you do a sectrick and the rest just looks at you and let's you do it, after the Muur it's too long to the goal. Same as in every hilly race. 15 fit leaders..some support riders... The only way to have an effect is: SIEB. with the leaders. Here the support riders just are not good enough anymore, here everybody will have "give everything" on, before that many probably have it off, since they can be fairly sure to come back anyway and don't want to lose the most important thing for nothing.. power. At the Muur, no, that IS the decisive place. You have to stay in the group. easy if no strong fit leader does anything. The disappointing Murs we had yesterday are 100% user "errors" not too weak effect of the pavé-mountain combination. Put in Voinea/Branco at 15h and it will be selective. Put in Langendries at 18h and it will be selective. Mmh, just realised I didn't see 21h it seems.. bah. thought I watched it too? Doesn't matter. The point is: the non action on the Muur is due to support riders that don't have enough power anymore (technical part) and the managers deciding themselves not to use their leaders.

We can't really say if the effect of pavé-mountain is big or not.. since we don't really know it after yesterday since nobody tried anything. All I know is that it's still a complete mystery how exactly a 5*** or a 8* work..4***** ? Mmh.. 9***? Ehm.. 10 6**? I don't know. And that's what makes it interesting each time.
But what I know is: 75-80 with 700 power doesn't scare anybody on a 7, not my riders anyway. (Ok, Feng, he seems very sensitive anyway) And logically they don't scare anybody on 8*** either. Maybe it wasn't selective enough, but we can't really say that after yesterday... maybe sometimes "give it all" is too effective? It is in the mountains... maybe the conflict 8*** (mountain pavé) gives illogical results? Sometimes seems that way, suspect knowing forms and powers makes it more logical, but maybe not selective enough? Don't know... but should a 65-with 85 pavé drop a 75 with 72 pavé? I don't know..

Don't really see a big problem here, if anything too many 70-80, too little risk in the muur, too big effect of helping.. but all of that is not really a pavé-mountain problem

[olmania]

Don't know... but should a 65-with 85 pavé drop a 75 with 72 pavé

Of course, I think the 85pavé have to drop the 72pavé on the Muur. If not, where is the interest to have that sort of riders ?

I continue to think that the pavé need to be more selective, and during the pavé-hill, i think that the pavé skill need to be more important than the moutain skill.
And, about the leaders who are affraid to do the job (first, or not), that's why I think that a bonus for attack can be interseting in pavé (stronger attack, or with a minus loosing of energy or ... i don't know ...).

[topsport]

10 o'clock race: sieb by alec gunn (76-80, 77 pavé) at the muur. sieb by alvaro suarez (72-80, 79 pavé) at the bosberg.

examples of riders which kept up with both of them:
alexander kuschynski (71-77, 70 pavé)
quentin baestaens (67-84, 74 pavé)

all in all about 15-20 riders stayed together.

examples of riders which dropped back at the muur:
gabriel makabäus (72-72, 67 pavé)
adriano leiteribeiro (68-71, 66 pavé)

eliopedro caldasaugusto (75-80, 71 pavé) kept up at the muur and was dropped at the bosberg.

seems not very selective.

topsport

[Quick]

I disagree.

It's the old problem, pavé or no pavé, it's the same.. hills, flat, 2 different skills required, often the best in one skill usually are not that good in the other. 90-60 vs 46-90, or 75-78 vs 60-85 etc. the problem then is, that unlike in reality the dropped riders come back easily. And are not weaker in any way... not less power than somebody who stayed in front. You can be dropped 50 times and come back 50 times. In reality after the 25th time probably you'd be gone. Not here, power is the most important, you don't lose power when dropped..

Ok...maybe an idea: Let's translate "fighting" with "riding in front of the peloton"(Like it's said in the windkanten-thread). You just can stay in the peloton(when you are strong enough) at a pavehill - which means everything from 5* or more - if you have "kämpfen"(fighting...but from now on i'd like to use kämpfen) activated. Why? There streets are often very small and if someone rides in the middle of the peloton there will be automatically a gap to the front of the peloton. If you have kämpfen activated and you are strong you lose power - about 30...(like in the mountains) - but you stay in the front.

Good idea? Bad idea?

[Robyklebt]

Which changes what exactly?

[Quick]

Think i meant, that you automatically fight on this km. So more lose of power... but doesnt mather now - was years ago. YEARS ago and it still sucks.