let´s make "Lutschen" more effective

[ariostea]

example: today´s Pave race 10 a.m.: 2 men sprint between BSE and Erkrath after a 30km-duo-attack. BSE´s Keerstraete Sprint 54, Erkrath´s Brincat Sprint 47 but 200 plus energy compared to BSE´s rider - nevertheless no chance in the sprint, Keerstraete won it claerly . meaning nothing else than: Lutschen (resting on the others wheel) is quite ineffective for the sprint compared even to smaller the sprint skill difference - 7 points in this case.

this means too: if my sprint-skill is 3 to 5 points worse than the sprint-skill of the other riders in a group, i would have do some Lutsching for let´s say 50-100km for getting a chance in a sprint, when making tempo is "cheap" - when the energy level of the riders is low and making tempo is down on 5-10 points of energy per km - what is typical for groups in the end for fighting for the stage.
actually i would guess: you need 30-50+energy for each point in sprint you are worse for getting a chance in a direct sprint. (but that´s just a guess - and Buh won´t tell us, what´s actually good). however, i think it is a little too hard to compense sprint skill-differences by resting on the others wheel. on the other hand we need "Lutschen" as a tactical option being effective - because this is typically how it´s working in cycling.

if i am not the only one who thinks it´s too hard/ too uneffective to rest on the others wheel for getting a better chance in a sprint - let´s discuss.

a suggestion i´ve already once made but that went down (ging unter?) in the general energy-reform is:

make energy differences more important in the sprints - but only if the energy-level of the sprinting riders is low. let´s say: beginning in sprints below 600 energy - or whatever. meaning in the normal bunch sprints nothing would change. in every sprint where the riders have a lot of energy left, nothing will change. but we make a difference of let´s say 50 energy-points more important in relation to the sprint skill differences in sprints where the riders are down 300 energy , even more important when they are down to 150 and so on...what makes sense, because 50 energy then is one third of the energy they have left.

[Luna]

I guess a bad sprinter stays a bad sprinter. If Cancellara sits on the wheel of Boonen for the final 10-20km, then it's not for having a better chance in the sprint, but for having a chance to distance Boonen with an attack in the finale. If he wouldn't get away and both get together to the sprint line, Boonen would still beat Llara.

A rider with no sprint ability (47 sprint is less then no sprint ability) should think well before committing to a group of two. It could mean that you simply just ride for 2nd place. Maybe waiting for the chasers would give him better chances in the final kms because he wouldn't be the only one to watch then.

[Zentaron]

We don't know what malus the both riders got. Maybe Erkraths rider got the maximum of -6 and my rider the minimum of 0, so it would have been 41 against 54. Don't know.

[ariostea]

i don´t think it´s the malus: that´s exactly my experience of several sprints: you need to get 30-50 energy for each sprint point.

@Luna: exactly! a bad sprinter is a bad sprinter! but in this case both are bad sprinters! 54 and 47! a good sprinter has 90+ , our range (45-95) is just too large for making such huge differences in the lower level of the skill - that´s exactly my concern

[Luna]

Ah, well... yes, 90+ is the real sprinter. But regarding to escapers, maybe a 60+ or 65+ is a good sprinter, 50-59 is medium (nearly perfect for having an uncomplicated day on the escape), and below 50 is no sprinter at all.

[Quick]

Ah, well... yes, 90+ is the real sprinter. But regarding to escapers, maybe a 60+ or 65+ is a good sprinter, 50-59 is medium (nearly perfect for having an uncomplicated day on the escape), and below 50 is no sprinter at all.

But then don't compare it with Boonen vs Cancellara

[Demuth]

I think it's just the problem that power isn't that important for the sprint skill. I remember a race where my sprinter didn't get a helper about 70 kilometers in the end he won from 50 meters, and he had the best sprinting skills. But as Luna said, it's realistic(Cancellara - Boonen). But on the other hand I agree with Quick, because it'd very unrealistic, if someone "lutscht" for 50 kilometers to have any chance in the sprint just because he has a lack of sprint skill to the opponent with 5-10 points. We could manage it, when we bring the sprinting performance closer the less energy the riders have. That wouldn't change the power management for sprinter teams, but it would make groups(especially km-1-groups) more realistic, I think.

[Buhmann]

The energy should be important. But maybe not important enough? Problem i see too, is that you have to stop tempo many many Km before. It´s not enough to stop tempo only the last 5, 10 km.
I will write a longer answer for this in a few days.

[NoPikouze]

The only problem is that you cannot compensate in the end when the energies are low. Everything else is fine.