beta sprint test notes / Sammelthread

[Robyklebt]

It's completely normal with this system. Early sprint, or change of wheel cost so much energy that I'm sure it's not a bug, it's just the intuitive system.

[Chense]

Sorry buh but after testing it this new sprintsys is nothing at all ... its not intuitive ... its not easy ... its just sucking ... and it has nothing to do with real tactics ... ill give you a bigger comment tomorrow but this just from what i got out of it now ...

[glasgowracing]

Did the requirement of power for sprint change? If I'm right we needed 50 power to sprint from 50m and 150 to sprint from 500.
Now one of my riders didn't sprint with 216 and an opponent's with 240.

Edit: Actually it might just have been a buggy short race, as the bots didn't sprint.

[ATB - Racing]

Please, stop the Auto-Tempo by the Auto-Bots from km1.
This is just ....

[NoPikouze]

I'm only realizing something now, maybe i'm mistaken, but...
Situation: in a relatively difficult ending race, you usually have a little amount of classics (with 6x sprint of course!) and also some climbers in the leading group.

Previous sprint system: classics almost have to follow each other to be sure to stay in the front group in case of an attack. And in the sprint, some people (i.e. climbers) can surprise them with an early sprint.

Current system: the classics follow each other in the last km (in case of an attack), and in the sprint they can switch to someone else, for exemple a climber with good sprint who goes early in the sprint.

Well maybe it's better, maybe it's more logical, maybe it's even more intuitive. But this was a significant part of the interest/tension/risk in classic races, especially in the important races likes monuments... I dont know how this will turn out, looks like a safe win for the better sprinter now, or what do you guys think ?

[Chense]

I think after doing some races i can answer now ... Sorry Buh but this Sprint system is just absolute Crap and the one and only reason for not buying another license ... why?

Its not intuitive ...
Its not easy ...
Its pro parasite teams ...
Its not helping teams with a real train but with a parasite train ...

Just change this back to more use of flatriders in a train ... its okay if a 85 fl - 87 fl - 84 sp - 92 sp train can beat a 90fl - 91fl - 87fl 75sp - 95 sp train sometimes but its not okay that a favo will be like 70sp - 85sp - 90sp - 92sp without any flatriders which is easy to buy with 15 mio for parasites ... where is the reality? ...

PRO BACK TO OLD SPRINTSYSTEM!

[Pokemon Club]

I don't understand why teams who have 3-4 sprinters and ride for them should be call parasit. The form of sprint teams change, but there was more and more parasit in the last version than now, clearly.

[Buhmann]

Did the requirement of power for sprint change? If I'm right we needed 50 power to sprint from 50m and 150 to sprint from 500.
Now one of my riders didn't sprint with 216 and an opponent's with 240.

Wind is very important. So i think one day was the wind better than the other.

I´ll make flat riders more important. But i will tell you when it is done. So for the first is the same system.

[Chense]

Poke i dont speak of parasites ... but a team with like:

95sp, 88sp, 85fl-70sp, 90fl, 89fl, 88fl and three helpers should be stronger then a team with
93sp, 93sp, 80sp, 80fl, 80fl, 80fl - Why? Because a sprinter will get his maximum strength for maybe 300m or so - but its a hole km in the finish - so if a train of 90,89,88 gets an advantage of like 10-15 meters on the first 500 meters of the final km im fine ... but like this where a 80fl with 60 or 65 sprint will be as strong or stronger then a 88 flatrider with 50-55 sprint it feels a bit unrealistic to me ... so i would be fine with this system if it forces you to have at least 1 strong flatrider or better 2 to have a good train for the sprint rather then forcing you to take at least a train with an 80-70sp and 2 sprinters with you...

[Robyklebt]

From another thread:

There are 2 things that can be done in my opinion:

1) Give flat skill more importance, especially when launching the sprint. Flat skill should be more important until 450m from the end.
This because when you launch the sprint it is like you do 550m (from 1km to 450m). The sprinters should make difference only from 400m (where he has the max strength); and the distance between a train launched by a sprinter or by a flat rider should be like the difference between their flat values.

Right!
1000-450 it seems nothing happens (used to be 500?, didn't even realized it changed until a few days ago). Sprint starts, all guys with sprint "von vorne" are at the same level. Wrong. REspectively bad. THERE the flat guys should be decisive. So that not all trains start at the same level. Then make of course the "transition" to sprint has to be gradual, can't make it full sprint from 450 on, otherwise we'll see stupid things too, the 89-55 who is way before the 55-89, who then comes back easily.

Other thing: Make the "position fights" more interesting. Or make them position fights. Right now basically you get and keep the position you have at the start, let's say 5 guys want the 95, 1 gets it the other 3 are behind. Don't put them behind but on the sides. "Winner" gets the wheel, nr 2 gets a side position same level as nr 1, but with MINIMAL more energy cost. MINIMAL Buhmann. Nr 3 another side, nr 4 behind, nr 5 behind a side, something like that.

nr 2: Make it possible to have 2 rider "deliveries". You have 90-95, make it somehow possible for the 90 to "deliver" the 95 to the wheel he wants, which right now somehow doesn't work

The end result of the sprint shouldn't be 5 trains a 3 riders. That never happens in reality. There's 1, maybe 2 successful trains. Then there's guys with a protector who helps them get the position, then there's guys who don't have any help. Here long term it will be x trains. What to do about that? "Explode" train nr 3+. The train fails, no train, nr 1 is beaten and is already back at the start of the sprint. nr 2-3 though follow somebody, are placed somewhere sensible depending on who they follow.
For example: A1 from "vorne". helps A2. A2 helps A3. A2 follows X, A3 follows P. X and P are from different teams.
If A1 is succesful, A2 and A3 will follow him and there will be a train. If A1 is not succesful, then A2 will follow whoever he wants to follow. Here not really sure how to handle it best, does he first try to follow P, the one A3 wants or X, the one he wants? IMO X would almost make more sense, if he doesn't get him then it's P, if he doesn't get that either he'll just be as close as possible to X, see above with the sides. Of course A2 being presumably a weaker sprinter will almost never get X or P. So here make it a "duo", both their skills count combined, not only A2 skill. And my old idea for positions of course is still brilliant, make experience a factor there, the guy with 200 races will get a bonus over the guy with 50 races when it comes to getting wheels.

Last thing for today: Make the sprint more positive, less negative. Right now LOTS of what you can do is only to make others lose. Actually as the fantastic and highly intelligent NoPikouze wrote in the main chat yesterday: The system right now only gives you the illusion of choices. Not real choices. The only choice you actually really have is: make somebody else lose. How? Sprint, you see a stronger guy is following, take the sprint out. Which is completely idiotic, unrealistic and too RSF for my taste. NO sprinter will start his sprint, look back, see a stronger guy following and stop sprinting. Put sprint in, have it stay in for at least 200 meters. Lock it in or so, can't take it out. YES, in reality the last guy will often take out after 100 meters, when his leader passes him, occasionally half blocking some riders behind, but most of the time not. Here at RSF that want be the case. The ability to take sprint out 50 meters after having it put in, is an invitation for negative (some will call it "tactical", ignoring that it has nothing at all to do with reality) sprinting.

[NoPikouze]

Can we have back the old system ? Or something else ? This is actually a waste of time, you basically try to hang in a sprint-train and watch where it finishes...

[NoPikouze]

Hmm and please tell how this is supposed to work with 25 sprinters and their helpers, since all the columns are full, and the initial placement in quite random-ish because when you dont get the wheel your position can be "strange", and its almost impossible to move anywhere because it's blocked everywhere... (and anyway, you cant move because it kills your "chances" to win)
I don't see it working in any kind of way, sorry.


Edith says it might work a little bit better if you also integrate a reasonable way of placing your riders, since thats where most of it is done... And also if we might have a chance to move in front of a 5x sprintguy when our sprinter is behind him, which seems impossible so far...

[NoPikouze]

Another idiotic thing is thats impossible to start the sprint in front of the group on purpose (i mean small group) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wanted to do that, which SHOULD BE AN OPTION SINCE ITS REALISTIC (or the opposite of it) AND INTUITIVE but my rider blew himself to death by sprinting as an asshole...

Whereas random placement doesnt make you lose any energy when you're in front... pure logic

This system is purely nonsense, no offense.

[Robyklebt]

How exactly is the position calculated? And the following?
You said that for the position flat is in, which IMO is ok at 450 meters. But then it seems that for the following too flat is very important. Today with Villa 86 and 70 sprint I "stole" the wheel of a 88 sprinter, took his position in the train, it was 1-2 OL, then 3-4 Villa and Gao, my 2 guys, 5 then some flat rider who probably was following Gao or Villa, nr 6 then then OLs sprinter. IMO that shouldn't happen here, not like I suspect it did happen, meaning that Villas flat gave him the position. If anything make Villa-Gao a couple who fight for their position. But then make nr 2 OL and sprinter OL a couple too, and here they should win. But ok, that's way too advanced for where this sprint system is right now. Far away from the BETA phase.
Same thing, same problem, the "cover boy".. put a strong flatrider on the wheel of your sprinter, hihi, hehe, haha, like FL did with Fargas (86 flat, 44 sprint) vs Tasman (74 flat 66 sprint) a few days ago. Fargas got the wheel, all good for him. The cover boy does indeed exist, but not in the last 500 meters. No team building a train has enough riders to spare to cover the backwheel of the sprinter there, all in front. So that isn't good or realistic either. Yes, you could say it makes it "interesting"... but what you, Buh, don't seem to get that, is that very few people here want "interesting but highly illogical, tactical, but in the manner of the sectrick or Mikado". A good mix between realism and gameplay is what the majority wants. And this flat guy gets the position at 450 isn't good realism in this form and isn't good for gameplay either.

My proposal:

1000-450: "from scratch" (if that's still the english term used which of course makes no sense either(yes, I ride german now since the scrolling titles who are everywhere in the english version piss me off) is decisive for who is in front, if more than there is place want to be in front. AND, something which isn't done now, there are already differences between the trains. Ok, there seem to be minimal differences there sometimes, for example today my Mollagholipour train (87 flat 50 sprint) was behind the Alk train with 85 flat and 68 sprint. A little bit. But all others seemed in the same position. Bigger differences there, and mostly decided by flat. 1000-600 all flat, do it internally, 600-450 the sprint starts to play a secondary role. And then have differences there, they won't be huge, but they should be there.
Following: Simple solution for now. Sprint. Since once you get a wheel you won't lose it right now, make it all sprint. The stronger sprinter gets the wheel, with a bonus for the riders from the same teams.

And until the TdF the whole sprint system should be improved. Drastically. Because during the tour no changes should be made, nothing worse than riding a GT with changing rules every day. Reach Beta level until then would be nice.

[Radomiak]

"Cover boy" tactic is complete bullshit and something has to be done to prevent using it. Also like MANY(everyone?) people said already, not getting wheel causes usually sprinter to be somewhere in the end of whole train, even after some 50 sprint sasuages, this should be calculated differently. How? To be honest no idea, but this can't stay like it is now.

[Chense]

Just place a guy who doesnt reach the backwheel on the side of the guy who got it and make him loose more power (okay but before we have to stop blocking by riders falling back from the front ...)

[Radomiak]

I was thinking how taking the wheel should imo take place, at least I have no better idea at the moment.

We have 5 sprinters:
sprinterA - 90sprint
sprinterB - 93sprint
sprinterC - 92sprint
sprinterD - 90sprint
sprinterE - 82sprint
CoverBoy from team of sprinterA - 60sprint

Tactic at the start of the sprint:
sprinterA - has his own train
sprinterB, sprinterC and CoverBoy try to get wheel of sprinterA
sprinterD try to take wheel of sprinterB
sprinterE try to take wheel of sprinterD

The order in train:
1. sprinterA - he has his own train so he is 1st
2. sprinterB - sprinterB(93) > sprinterC(92) > CoverBoy(60 + 10bonus of being in the same team as sprinterA)
3. sprinterD - we count every sprinter who couldn't take wheel in previous calculations with some penalty and sprinters who wants to follow him: sprinterD(90) > sprinterC(92-5 penalty for not taking previous wheel) > CoverBoy(60-5)
4. sprinterC - same as before: sprinterC(92-5) > sprinterE(82sprint) > CoverBoy(60-5)
5. sprinterE - sprinterE(82-5) > CoverBoy(60-5)
6. CoverBoy

Penalty and bonus points are only for calculation the position in train, sprint skills doesn't change.

This system promotes better sprinters to get better wheel and not being at the end of the train. Also it protects from CoverBoy tactic, still possible to put worse rider behind your own sprinter, but he has to be good enough to take this position. I doubt anyway would like to put such a good rider as a CoverBoy instead using him in train. However in this system its possible to "break" someones train or even cempletly steal it, but in my opinion its unlikely to happen(with 10sp bonus). Ofcourse value of bonus points of being is same team and penelty for not taking wheel are open to disscusion. Any better ideas how to improve it?

[Rockstar Inc]

Following = 50 meter sprint?

i set "following" with my rider today and at the next mountainprize he sprinted from 50 meter? bug, correct?

[Pokemon Club]

correct

[NoPikouze]

at 300m, my 87 sprint is following a 75, no prob, and then the whole line moves and a 44 sprint steals the wheel from my 87... during 100m before i get it back.

IS THAT GRMBL NORMAL ???

[NoPikouze]

Amongst other weird stuff... now a 58 sprint is able to beat a whole bunch of 92 sprinters... Oh and also some guys didnt show up in the sprint it seems.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH

[Rockstar Inc]

and still people beliving that something will change in the near future...

sry pik...sarcasmn is the only thing that makes fun @this topic

[NoPikouze]

I try to write at least 50% of the stupid stuff that i see in order to keep track of it, thats all...

[NoPikouze]

Ok, another one that irritates me... In a 2vs1 sprint, let's say A+B versus X.

Initially X follows A who is the stronger of the pair.
If B goes early, X hangs easily on B (because after 50 or 100m, the B guy has only arrived besides the X rider), and that without any cost in energy obviously. Since the rider is besides, he just hangs on him for the next bit of road, and that doesnt cost anything to X. Who is then able to go back to controlling A, when B is wasted and X still completely fit.

Whats is the point of this ? It's impossible to get an advantage against a stronger rider or whatsoever.

In this attempt to satisfy some sprinter teams (well, that was a success...), you killed any other kind of sprint or tactical approach. In the classic-season this will be really really worthless. And of course for almost all the races it actually is, but that doesn't matter so much...

[tusnad]

my rider didnt sprint today ... i set follow on Ruslan Machado and then sprint now (right) from 50m and he followed until finish line but not sprint any second ...

ruslan machado sprint 48
danut catana sprint 53

Was fight for 3rd place in stage and 4s boni time. Its GC fight and i want my 4s boni time !!!