New transfer system for youth riders

[Luna]

Don't panic. There is still the ordinary rider market open for all and partly with really cheap riders, so that the forthcoming of a team doesn't solely depend on getting the best youth riders available.

[sgumgub]

you didnt get the point...

it is about very cheap helpers, that come from the youth market...since the taxes are damn high for most good teams you have to drive the youth rider way...also the cheap helpers, so that he is worth it.

just introduce the youth market as you said (down til div 4) and leave the rest as it is for a amomen t to see hwat happens. after a month we should start thinking about such crap

[flockmastoR]

so just some thoughts:

a) if you bet on a rider the money is not on your konto anymore till someone else gets the acceptance of the bid. So you will not be able for example if you have 3mio to bet 2 Mio on a 54-74 and another 3 Mio on a 56-74 or something. So you have to focuse and concentrate your bet.

b) you can delete your bet everytime till the rider gets to this level (you need the money now, or there is a better rider on the market now...)

c) What if 2 Managers set the same price (I know, but it CAN happen after we know how much we need to get a 56-74-79) So the rider goes to the team with the higher? Season Points? Eternal Points? Sex Appeal?

d) as long as the rider is not bought, there is a "buy now" button???

[Zauberlehrling]

sgumgub: The cheap helpers will remain cheap or even get cheaper (to 90 or 95%). I will never pay more than market price for a 48-74-58 rider, they are so usual, no need to overpay them.

The block for 21y-old is just for the leaders who will get more expensive, not for the casual Helper.

[Luna]

a) if you bet on a rider the money is not on your konto anymore till someone else gets the acceptance of the bid. So you will not be able for example if you have 3mio to bet 2 Mio on a 54-74 and another 3 Mio on a 56-74 or something. So you have to focuse and concentrate your bet.

b) you can delete your bet everytime till the rider gets to this level (you need the money now, or there is a better rider on the market now...)

c) What if 2 Managers set the same price (I know, but it CAN happen after we know how much we need to get a 56-74-79) So the rider goes to the team with the higher? Season Points? Eternal Points? Sex Appeal?

d) as long as the rider is not bought, there is a "buy now" button???

a) as far as i understand it it's allowed to place several bids in order to sort of pre-program your transfer acticities. So you could place 3 bids in the morning, then you go work, and in the evening you see how it went and which rider you finally got, if any.

b) removing and altering bids will be possible as long as the auction is running.

c) Higher rank in higher div.

d) The auction counts backwards from high to low. The actual virtual prize is shown constantly. You can always end the auctionimediately by accepting the actual prize.


@ZL: I can imagine that riders with extremely low salary could become a bit more expensive on the long run. Maybe not as long as the adult rider market is still open, though.

[flockmastoR]

a) as far as i understand it it's allowed to place several bids in order to sort of pre-program your transfer acticities. So you could place 3 bids in the morning, then you go work, and in the evening you see how it went and which rider you finally got, if any.

ah okay. one example: I want to buy a 56-74 not much sprint not much downhill. Lets say he costs 2Mio (normal price), i also see a good 54-74 lets say for 1.8Mio.
1) do these auctions start the same time like youth market update? or is this random?
2) if they start at the same time: Per hour day or whatever the riders get cheaper and at the same time the 2 Mio guy costs 3Mio (+50%) the 1.8 guy costs 2.7 Mio(+50%) ?

its about this: i may want the 1.8guy more than the other but if i dont get the zuschlag i want the 2 mio guy, i have 3 mio credits and bet, hm lets say 2.1 Mio on the 1.8guy (+16,7%), so i will bet for the 56-74 less than 2.333.333 (+16,7%) otherwise i will never get the 1.8mio guy - Thats right so far?

2) another example: I want to break down buhmanns system, having 5 mio i bet 5 Mio on a guy with normal prize 2.5Mio. and the same on another one the same prize. SO what happens now? do i get one of them?(when yes which one?) both? noone? the one who costs 10k less? (how are the steps down from the 1000%? Steady or stepwise?)

edith: point is, why not make it that the money is away, can only bet on one rider not to get the "false one" by betting false. hop you understand.

[Robyklebt]

I actually disagree with that my dear ZL. I think the really CHEAP support riders will get a bit more expensive. A 46-72 or 74? Now is very cheap and very popular, because they are so cheap. Worth every cent you pay. Pay 50k more? Still cheap,still worth it. I talk about the ones under 1,4 Mio basically. They won't get cheaper I think. A bit more expensive ones, yes.

But anyway, want to hear from Buhmann again. D1-4? Convinced?

And since ZL wrote how he thinks it should work, I post my version, which is almost the same.

1 Only D1-4

2 Daily vs like now: Clearly for daily. Smaller number of riders. 4 times daily good, midnight (Or later, when the RSF day changes?) then every 6 hours x riders appear.

3 2 days are enough maybe. Don't think it needs 4. In ZLs idea Day 2 "it's getting interesting is" is more like "200-150"? I'm bored to death. Why soooo slow?
Day 1 1000-150
Day 2 150-95%

4: Place as many bids as you want. Even if you don't have the money when you place the bids... you just won't get any riders if you don't have the money. Bids cancellation ok. Question to be solved: What happens if I bid exactly the same percentage on 2 riders that get on the market at the same time, reach the same percentage at the same time of course, and get both but only have the money for one? Unlikely it happens by chance, likely it happens because somebody wants to test it, needs a solution. The easiest one of course, only bid if you have enoug money, as ZL says... but why not make it: Then you get the more expensive one. Otherwise of course for multiple bids you get the one that reaches the buying price first. Why multiple bids possible without the cash? Otherwise it favours the guys that can be online again too much. There's 2 riders I like, one better, one a bit worse, ame type, have money only for one. Only if cash there: I bet on one. If I then don't get him, if I'm offline I can't bet on the second one. ZL bets on the same ones, doesn't get nr 1 either, but is on, bet on the second then possible, why I can't. We are at 101%, he will go in the next hours, ZL bids 100%, gets him. I wake up 3 hours later, didn't get nr 1, couldn't bid on nr 2, now not there anymore.

5: How to bid, I say in money, not percentages. But in the warning message when I send the bid, the percentage is automatically mentioned, safety so I see wow 950%, wanted to give in 1'140'000 for a 1'200'000 rider, added a 0 too many... without that in the worst case the rider was at 951 when I send the bid, bought a short time later, if for some mysterious reason I have all that money, I'm fucked... will happen to somebody sooner or later anyway, since it can happen, but with the safety showing of the percentage then easier to say, your own fault.

6 Down to 95% Not 90% because the further down you go, the more difficult it is to find the right amount of riders, and that will be the biggest challenge in the beginning. Keep it a bit easier, later on why not down to 90% for youth riders?
Not 100%, because it should adjust the prices a bit in both direction. And unlike ZL I don't think it will be the cheap helpers that will go down, they are cheap enough, I'll pay 100% or a bit more for one of those no reg, 46-70 guys... It's the overpriced guys 65 reg sprinter, other high reg guys that will become cheaper, and rightly so. Others that actually might go cheapers are unpopular good riders.. Hubers... not that many buy them, they could become cheaper, not sure I like it, but ok. Maybe even ultrareg climbers, would love that of course. Or reg classic guys etc. Let's see, but I think it would be good to let the market decide in 2 directions, more expensive and cheaper, but limit it to 95% for the moment, a bit easier to find the balance.

7: Influence on salary? Right now I'd say no.

8 Limits as proposed by luna in the other thread? YES.

Problems:
-D5? See above, see a few solutions
-What to do about the season change? No auctions in the last few days of the month, if the auction would go beyond the season change? Or let them become 21 year olds and continue auctions that already started as 21 year olds that then join the team?
-21 year olds? Agree with ZL, risks creating a run for 21 years olds from at the beginning of the month.
- Most difficult thing: Amount of riders per day... Right now there are 659 21 year olds in the game. that's D1 to 5 I guess. Of the 900 that come online at a referesh, usually 50-100 are taken..let's assume 5% -7% are somehow useful to somebody from D1-4 the rest bought in D5 by people who make mistakes.. With 100 riders a day 25 per time, we'd get +/-3000 riders, 5%, 150 riders, 7% 210 riders that would be somewhat useful to someone in D1. Sounds fairly ok, just a wild guess for the moment of course, but why not start with 100 riders a day If the "Verteilung" of the youth riders doesn't change, stays like now, x like this, x like that etc. Would only be 5-7 somewhat useful riders a day, but the prices shouldn't skyrocket, because not everybody has the money all the time, not for everybody the same type of rider is somewhat useful at the same time. Towards the end of the month though it could lead to a small explosion, but we're in the tweaking phase still, if Buh sees a big increase in prices from the 20est on, he can adjust then..

[Luna]

I would suggest to don't let 2 auctions start at the same time, so that there would always be one ending before the other. That would avoid two or more bids of the same manager conflicting with each other when auctions end simultaneously.

[Robyklebt]

mmh, you mean every rider starts at a different time?

[Zauberlehrling]

I would start one rider every 15 Minutes... that makes 96 riders per day. So there is always some action on the Transfer market.

[Luna]

Yes. A seperation of one single minute could already help.

Ah, ZL faster. One minute, 15 minutes. Yes, something like that.

[Robyklebt]

Ok, why not, sounds good to me. Doesn't completely resolve the issue of 2 guys I want reach their limit at exactly the same time... mh, I get the higher percentages, ok, you're right, it solves the problem.

[flockmastoR]

solves it? dont see it! only if the percentage change is not at the same time, but thats than also more confusing for me calculating how much to spend to get the "better" one first

[Buhmann]

Div 1-5 Problem:

I would not prefer to eliminate the youth marcet for Div 5 teams...but i don´want give them the advantage of have a own transfermarcet without auctions. My favorite is the suggestion that Div 5 teams are only allowed to bid a price of max. 120% or something like this.

And you said every 15 minutes one rider. What does it mean? Delete 1 random rider (which no team have bid for) and create a new one? Or add him to the transfer marcet? Only add him if another rider is bought?

[Luna]

Max 120% for Div sounds good to me on the first sight.

And you said every 15 minutes one rider. What does it mean? Delete 1 random rider (which no team have bid for) and create a new one? Or add him to the transfer marcet? Only add him if another rider is bought?

I'd say just add one every quarter-hour.

The riders who have reached 90% (or 95%, whatever) are deleted, and those who get sold disappear from the market. So the total number of riders at the market may differ during the time. But that's no problem, is it?

EDIT: The system should show the point in time when an entered bid would be reached, for making planning easier.

[Zauberlehrling]

I would NOT make the auctions for Div5.

Two reasons:
1. Protect the Teams from themselves: Normally in Div5 are rather new teams (or teams who ride few races), they don't yet understand the system of the value of a rider very well, the danger for them is to overpay the riders. Just give them a normal JTM, maybe cut the peaks (no 73 mountain, no 82 sprint, max 55-73 for example)

2. (and more important) It's nearly impossible to calculate how many riders to put in an auction. The number of teams changes, several teams are rebuilding in Div5 and need 5 riders per month, others are more or less inactive, there is the danger that first there are too many riders, then too few, then too many and so on. With a fixed number of teams it's much easier, just about 1.2 new youth riders per month and team... read Robys calculation, with his deep knowledge of Pythagoras, Zigarettes, Olloids and Ellipsen he is the right man for that.

[Robyklebt]

Doesn't sound good to me, at all. 120% max for D5? No good.

Right now there are 450 teams in D5. How many will it be in 1 month? In 2? How many will go to D6b, how many will come up from D6, how many will restart in 6b? You'll need to adjust the number of riders accordingly, all the time. Do it automatically, that's solved. Will you do it automatically or will you plan to automatize the thing sometime in the future?

The other problems remain though. 120 is still 120, paying 600'000 more for a 3 Mio man will still very likely be much much more than D1-4 is ready to pay. And often what that manager himself will be ready to pay too some weeks/months later. 2 guys fucked, the guy who bought, and the guy who would have bought him for a normal price.

-The 50 day rule? Not there in D5. 2 negative consequences: 1)Bought riders can be sold, immediately again. Saw a better one, payed 1,3 instead of 1,2 for that one, small loss then, but no problem. The guy in D1-4 who would have gotten him is fucked. The 3,0 Mio man bought for 3,6 will probably not be sold, but maybe yes, the manager doesn't like him anymore, after 5 days, wants to try something else. Sold. Or if the money would go under 15 Mio? Fuck it, reset! Reset? Ui, a problem then! Ok, can't have resets in D5 anymore then. Ehm, ok... no more resets? Reset. Can't have reset in those cases? No experience, had money, bought the too expensive guy, now only 8 riders, not enough money for 10, can't reset, can't ride, fucked. Can reset, same problem again, D5 "Stealing" riders just to drop them. No good. 2) The advantage that D5 has no too. Flexibility, no problem changing your rider like you do your underwear (you not me, I have the same rythm for riders and underwear too though ), so of course much easier to get the money when you want and need it. While many in D1-4 never will come close to even have half of that flexibility. Big advantage to D5. Introduce the 50 day rule exactly as for D1-4 as well? No, let the new guys get their experience, not have them sit on their missed buys forever.

To include D5 in the auctions, you will have to change a lot of other stuff too, I'm fairly sure I can come up with other problems too without overworking my brain. You'll be busy changing small special rules here and there, If you want the auctions to suceed, that is. If you don't want too, go ahead, it' looks like a good recipe for failure to me.

Again, D1-4 closed 180 auctions.
D5+6b, no reason not to give 6b youth riders of course, can get youth riders, there's different things that you can do.

"normal market", without the top riders. top skills.
Only get the leftovers from the D1-4 youth market, but then at the lowest price, which IMO should be 95%
Read above,but by now I actually like the last proposal.

Have you really thought this D5 thing through?

[Robyklebt]

Ah, can't resist... this

.but i don´want give them the advantage of have a own transfermarcet without auctions.

You give a much bigger DISadvantages to D1-4 by letting the high flex boys from D5, driving the prices up. And now not talking about stupid 3,6 Mio buys. About fairly normal ones.

And can't resist the next part either, I know this one will very likely be contra productive, but as I'm told daily: hitokoto ooi.

Here it goes:

It's the 28th of march 2011. You want to introduce a new youth market system on the first of April 2011. Do you actually have anything like a vision on how the whole market thing should look? Have you actually spent any time going through the pro and cons of the single points? Do you actually have any idea of the current rules in the different markets?

Do it right, or don't do it.
In the meantime I'm going to by cigarettes, unpythagoric ones and maybe a hammer.

[Astana]

120% max for D5-teams?!is that a joke?with 120% u don't get good riders, so your team won't get better and u only are able to climb up to higher divisions by riding more races.thsi system will only prefer the big teams from d1 oder 2.
if u want wo make it a little bit fairer, don't chance the market for d5.

[Quick]

Lol? I won't pay 2.4millions for a 2million rider... and for sure not 3.6million for a 3million rider... 120% is really enough.

[Astana]

you will see, that for the good riders there will be a lot of teams who will pay such prices

[flockmastoR]

you will see, that for the good riders there will be a lot of teams who will pay such prices

that will for sure not be for those who are constant in the first division, they dont have to waste so much money on one rider. Its more for the ones that restart and have 20-mio+ on their konto. And of course for the beginners that would overprice the riders, so see it as protection.

whats now with the div 5? are they in for the auctions? Or do they get the rest of the market?

[team fl]

you will see, that for the good riders there will be a lot of teams who will pay such prices

that will for sure not be for those who are constant in the first division, they dont have to waste so much money on one rider. Its more for the ones that restart and have 20-mio+ on their konto. And of course for the beginners that would overprice the riders, so see it as protection.

whats now with the div 5? are they in for the auctions? Or do they get the rest of the market?

Are you sure you can speak for everyone? If you have some money left and there is your dream 20yo on the market... are you not willing to spend a bit more than usual? Even when you're in Division 1?

[Zauberlehrling]

Noboby can... but that makes the thing so interesting

But without Div5 the chance for some Harakiri-Transfers goes down. When I had to rebuild (Okt 09), I was in Div5 and bought 12 20y-riders in about 10 Days. With auctions there would have been the danger that I overpay some of them, because it was urgent do get at least 9 acceptable riders to be able to ride in November. Now it wouldn't be that bad to get the rider not, I still have a team I can ride with, and for me normally it doesn't matter whether I buy a rider in Oct or Nov. I just buy them when I have enough money.

[Astana]

ok....but what do u want to do now with the youth rider market? for sure u need one