Points and money for jerseys during tours

[Hansa]

No i think it´s better if we do more for wearing the yellow jersey because in real the sponsor of the team give any more if you wear a jersey and i think conquest the jersey is better then wear the jersey so I think like this

Defense Conquest
Yellow 40K 45k
Green 20K 22K
Red 15K 17K
White 15K 17K

And then we can do with percent

Tours with
Cat. 5= 100%
Cat. 4= 95%
Cat. 3= 90%
Cat. 2= 85%
Cat. 1= 80%


And for the win of the jerseys the rules which we have know

And i think more money for a stage win is also ok like

120K
80K
55K
40K
And then the same like know

[Buhmann]

I would say, too, that the current money for wearing the yellow jersey is too low. More money for winning the stage is one thing, that i would prefer, too. What think the others about it? (Re-)Increase the money for wearing the leader jersey?

[NoPikouze]

I would say increase it a little bit for the leader jersey (and the other jerseys ?) 30k and 15k perhaps...
But the topic was about the point that winning a jersey should bring more than just wearing it...

For the conquest, it's "useless" to give more since you usually get the jersey after a good day (mountains prizes or a good place in the stage).

Stage wins with more money ? Don't know, 100k is pretty much yet. Of course everybody would like to get more

[Robyklebt]

1. Reraise jersey wearing

Increase increase... why?

Leader: I don't really see 20k as too little. It's 20k when I get it, another 20k when I keep it. And how much I invest to keep it is decided more by other factors than by the money. Good for me tactically to keep it, can I actually hope to keep it, etc. If for many 20k is not enough, so they rather not do anything to keep it. Ok, look at it this way, it opens up races more, something that seems to be in vogue to demand. Increase it to 25k or 30k? Not the end of the world either...

Other jerseys: 15k? End of the world, finished. 10k is enough. In most of the cases. The one group that IMO gets a bit fucked is the sprinter teams.. they don't seem to make that much money anyway.... I saw Marzahns finance page during the pavétour... shockingly low income. And that gets lowered further now, sprinters that ride tours are not necessarily that cheap even without a real classic rider. Just a guy to keep the distance low on the +4+5 etc. lots of flat riders and 1 or, why not, 2 sprinters. For them wearing the jerseys was important I guess, unlike most others they don't really have the possibility to go gain more money in other places. The rest has, point jersey wearing classic riders, climbers etc, mountain jersey chasers etc. Pure sprinter teams get a bit fucked, agree (with myself since I'm the only one saying it) but... sorry, keep it at 10k.

2. Team classification

no change I think... think about one, read above somewhere. Basically cut the per rider part, just give a fix amount per day.

New stuff:

Waiting for Ari is getting boring. Where is the guy?

3. +20'000 for stage wins and one day races wins

Ok, you say +20k for stage winners and one day races. 120k for a win. Agree, good idea. Do it. If then you want to change more in the whole money scale for one day races and stages, ok too, can be the next step and you do the +20k first... or can be the same step too, but then I'll discuss too of course.

4. Same for points, kind of

+25% points for the winner of one day races and stages? Like that too after all. IMO the same counts as for money, do it now, if you want to change more, next step, if you want one step, will take longer because the ape likes writing.


5. Money according to categories for tours

You're opposed to it I'm for it: so just do it. You don't need to really understand everything I think, just implement the great ideas

Ok.

Tours, money according to category. Only tours, not one day races. Why?
We all know that SOME tours are pure moneytours. Southland every year, for me this year Qatar too, but there's many more. 1 reason, jersey, has been cut a bit, good, the second one is: x riders in the top 20. Those moneytours have one thing in common. Low category. As soon as it's a bit higher, the group gets stronger, much more difficult to get x riders in the first 20. Occasionally still happens maybe, but occasionally not a problem. The problem is when it happens for x participants to make huge profits. And then basically it puts teams that don't have the time, like Ari for example at a huge disadvantage financially. You can't compete at the same level with only one day races, even if you win many of them. Even if it gets you 20k more per win.

So, why not adjust the money scale for small tours a bit?

Something like I wrote in the small post on page 1. Keep the prize money for the winner the same,


Cat 1: Only top 20 get money.
Cat 2: Top 25
Cat 3: Top 30
Cat 4: Top 35
Cat 5: Like now. Or if a change, why not give a small money present, 50 credits to all the finishers. You finished a GT, here's 50 credits. Irrelevant I know.

IMO that would make sense, place 11+13+16+18+21 in a 5 day cat 1 tour now gives you 38k per day. So 190k for well.. not really much, not actually anything worth remembering. Cut that. With the proposal in the short post on page one that would be 13k per day. So 65k. And that's what these places really are worth IMO. Of course it's nice when I get don't remember how much for my 5 top 20 or so in Qatar, think the best one was even top 10 though, but does it make sense? IMO no. Less money in winter is one of your arguments... yes. But is the money that my proposal would cut really the money you want to give out? In a way it would just adjust more to the real season, where there are fewer cat 1 tours, more cat 2+3. So actually in a way less money around because often, not always, the teams will be stronger, bigger fight for the TOP places, teh real top ones. And by giving less money to cat 1 etc. tours, also more incentive for bigger teams to participate in the big events during the season. Less incentive to go ride the cool race "5 days around a palmtree" and earn shitloads of money, more incentive to go to the parallel cat 3 one day races. A good thing IMO.
If I somehow manage to convince you to do this, then

7. Jersey wearing per category

becomes an option. TdF 20k for yellow. Not really much. But for the 5 palmtree days (and just one palm tree actually, not 5) is almost too much. Then you could make a scale there too. Cat 5 40k 20k, cat 4 30k 15k cat 3 25k 10k cat 2 and 1 20k 10k or even lower for cat 1. Something like that. Because the fixed rate doesn't really work. Too low for the Giro. but rather too high than too low for the maple tree tour (3 days, around 6 trees, you ride an 8 every day). Would be so much easier if you could adjust it. So adjust both, the final GC money according to the tour and the jersey wearing for the tour.

8 Category 0

Yep, a new category. Points? ZERO. Money? Normal. And it's not provocation, I'm serious. Right now we're riding criteriums. Aux is on a mission, he wants to ride club races, criteriums, "show races" everything, because it's real. If he continues like that in August 2011 we'll be riding every second post Tour criterium .Ok, let him have his fun, but let's be realistic. There are no points for those criteriums, club races, shows and what not. There is money. Give out money, ok. No starting fee, the organizer pays your whole team, even if it's 700'000k. Ok. No problem. BUT. Make it for those mind numbing club races etc, criteriums. Not for any other races, not for fantasy races. And keep having a real race, a real RSF race every day. Cat 1 up. The ones who want to ride criteriums, please, the ones who want to ride normal race, they ride a normal race. No more days like tomorrow where everybody is forced to ride some Argentinian thingy nobody ever heard about before, nobody cares about and looks like complete shit too, if I'm allowed to say that here. So, make it easy, introduce category 0 and lets keep shit out of the real calendar.

[Luna]

No more days like tomorrow where everybody is forced to ride some Argentinian thingy nobody ever heard about before, nobody cares about and looks like complete shit too,

The same race could have been created as a fantasy race. Maybe with a different name and a different place. But what makes it less worth when it's in fact ridden somewhere in the world. I also never heard something of a race called GP Amsterdam. Why should the complete RSF elite be allowed to race such an unimportant low level race? It's not more or less important than those criteriums or inaugural experimental editions of maybe future UCI events.

But however, I also thought about an additional race category in connection with a little wrap-up of the participation rules. Something like maximum salaries according to the cat. Or max/min divisions of the teams. Therefor the fantasy races need to be divided into free-for-all and only-for-div5/6 or such, in order to avoid the upper divs to be excluded from racing when there's a day without a real race that provides a higher cat.

Just random thoughts more or less. Not really thought out.

[NoPikouze]

Just something I was thinking of:
Give the possibility to designers of tours to make one jersey more important (+10k per day for wearing it, for example)
On some tours, there is clearly one jersey which is important, and one which doesnt matter a lot
On "normal" small tours, the important one would be the sprinters jersey, and the mountain jersey doesnt have any interest (maybe we should even cut it more often... on the real eneco tour there wasnt one, why not do the same on more fantasy tours ?). And on mountain tours, the green jersey is just shit whereas the mountain jersey has some interest.
Of course it's not perfect, was just a thought... But always the same importance for both jerseys is not really right

[Buhmann]

Okay, i concentrate on the "first step" things

Reraise jersey wearing [...] Increase it to 25k or 30k? Not the end of the world either...

I think this would be better than now. And yes, the sprinter teams have the biggest problems. Maybe more money and points for the points-jersey? I would prefer this...for the climber jersey it is enough at the moment.

+20'000 for stage wins and one day races wins

We cut money for wearing jersey, so i don´t see the problem to increase the money for winning a race. So the first place is more important than before, thats good!

Same for points, kind of [...] +25% points for the winner of one day races and stages

Here i see some problems concerning to the old and current riders. Succesfull riders in future will earn more points and have an advantage for the ranking list.

[Robyklebt]

Reraise the jersey? Bah. Don't see the point. Don't get it why many say 20k is so little. It isn't. Anyway, look at nr 5+7 or so. 6 doesn't exist it seems.

Sprinters, yes, but they are the ones that might profit from the +20k for stage wins and 1 day races wins as well. More than mountain jersey hunters, so I would keep them at the same level.

+20 k for stage wins, nobody who posts here is opposed, no need to discuss.

+25% points for the winner of stages and 1 day races. Was your idea....

Yes, it increases the points for stage winners and one day race winners. And IMO especially for classics, monuments it does a good job by giving them a bit more points, better balanced then with what tour wins give. The World Rankings will change a bit, a Clausen will have more points, maybe 1000 more in the end, maybe not, just guessing, Would that be that bad? And I think Clausen is probably one of the riders that would profit most. YEs, old Clausens are at a disadvantage, a new Clausen will have 1000 points more maybe. But IMO it doesn't completely change the WR. But ok if you think it changes too much, then don't do it.

[Luna]

Same for points, kind of [...] +25% points for the winner of one day races and stages

Here i see some problems concerning to the old and current riders. Succesfull riders in future will earn more points and have an advantage for the ranking list.

We also have some advantages for past heroes like Stefan Schneller who once had the advantage of winning every sprint automatically (once when the sprint outcomes were simply sorted by sprint skills). The same when we once cut the rankng points for getting 5th at an HC mountain at the beginning of a stage in a fantasy tour. The same when we once cut the ranking points for results in field 2 or 3.

You cannot avoid such faults. If you want to keep it equal now and forever you never can change anything with the ranking points.

[Robyklebt]

the leader jersey money

For once I have it, cool. I get only 20k, which really kills my finances btw, every day 20k more than I would get without having it, life is really tough. (and I pay a salary of 106k btw) Do I need more? Yes, 200k please. Then I kill my team every day just to keep it. Who cares about stage wins and the GC at the end, I kill everybody, no problem. Now? I get 20k I try to keep it. Why shouldn't I? I work to keep the advantage of the group ahead so that the stage favorites can get them if they want, not much more. Not going to kill my team of course. For 40k? Maybe a bit more, yes. But is it so bad that I do a tiny little bit less to keep rosa? Right now I'm in killing 2 riders per day, ok mode. With 40 k maybe I would sacrifice the third more Maybe, don't really know. Is it so bad that I don't? Isn't that why YOU Buhmann keep bothering us with= "More chances for escapers?" And then come up with moronic ideas like the one where you wanted to decrease the time loss in climbs for riders with less energy so they have more chances to go through if the stage ends with a climb and nothing before? Here you have a thing that could benefit escapers, less money for the rosa jersey, and now you want to put it up again? What for? I as an experienced 20k rosa wearer (tomorrow the third day I ride in it) can tell you that I don't really feel I need to get more money for that anyway.

[Luna]

20k is enough. I think that, too. But make it more for wearing the leaders jersey in a Grand Tour.

[Quick]

20k is enough? Hm, if i have no chance for the stage win, i dont know if i would work. With escaping i would earn about 10-20k too, but there i have the chance to win the stage and only 1 dead rider...

[Luna]

That depends on how many intermediates ar lying on the stage and if your breakaway companions allow you to get for example three out of three sprints; and the next day again. And it depends opn how important are the ranking points for your rider, since wearing the jersey is rewarded with those points contrary to winning intermediates. And it depends on for how long you would be able to carry the lead anyway. It also depends on if your companions would be willing to ride with you in the escape, knowing you could stop working anytime because you have nothing to lose if you get caught. Many dependencies. No case is like the other. There would be some cases where you might deliberately give up the jersey. Some cases, not many.

[Robyklebt]

Nothing happening here. Which is good on the reraising jerseys idiocy, but not good on other stuff.

Do the first step things.

+20 k for winners of one day races and stages.
+25% points for winners of one day races and stages.

Forget the reraising bullshit until you read nr 5+7.

[Luna]

+20 k for winners of one day races and stages.

in total? per day?

[Buhmann]

? Per race.

[Pirkio]

i know isn't about the jerseys but, why don't implement sponsors?

fast example in my mind

cat 6 -> 30 - 40K for season (month)
cat 5 -> 40 - 50K for season (month)
cat 4 -> 50 - 60K for season (month)
" " " " " " "
" " " " " " "
cat 1 -> 80 - 90K (100K) for season(month)

and a little bonus for races/tours win (maybe 2% of the contract for race and 5% for tours?)

[Luna]

Ah, per race.. of course. Once more read too fast (thought the speech was about winning a whole stage race).

[Pirkio]

i forgot this (race win and tour win)

[Buhmann]

i know isn't about the jerseys but, why don't implement sponsors?

fast example in my mind

cat 6 -> 30 - 40K for season (month)
cat 5 -> 40 - 50K for season (month)
cat 4 -> 50 - 60K for season (month)
" " " " " " "
" " " " " " "
cat 1 -> 80 - 90K (100K) for season(month)

and a little bonus for races/tours win (maybe 2% of the contract for race and 5% for tours?)

Most of the players don´t want sponsor. I don´t like this really much, too.

+20 k for winners of one day races and stages.
+25% points for winners of one day races and stages.

Okay, in the next week i will change it.

[Buhmann]

Maybe "next week" again. Much work at the moment (with rsf )

[Mayo]

Just use the correct system for stages , e.g. Giro 2009 (maybe there are other stage races with other systems but using the Giro as prototype for our system can't be bad, can it?):

"al 1° classificato euro 11.010
al 2° classificato euro 5.508
al 3° classificato euro 2.753
al 4° classificato euro 1.377
al 5° classificato euro 1.102
al 6° classificato euro 826
al 7° classificato euro 826
al 8° classificato euro 551
al 9° classificato euro 551
al 10° classificato euro 276
al 11° classificato euro 276
al 12° classificato euro 276
al 13° classificato euro 276
al 14° classificato euro 276
al 15° classificato euro 276
al 16° classificato euro 276
al 17° classificato euro 276
al 18° classificato euro 276
al 19° classificato euro 276
al 20° classificato euro 276
----------------------
euro 27.540"

ca.
1. 100%
2. 50%
3. 25%
4.12,5%
...
100 000 - 150 000 to the winner..whatever as long as it's the right proportion to the other places or at least the first places. So if the second gets 70 000 the first should get 140 000.
40 000 more than now, not 20 000!

[Robyklebt]

Welcome back! Hope your other cycling was succesful!

Ontopic:
Problem is:

In reality teams are not financed by races. They get the money from sponsors, the money that riders earn during stages doesn't even go to the team. The rider keeps it if he's an asshole, so in 99% of the cases the money is distributed among the teammembers..incl. mechanics etc.

Here at RSF the teams are still financed by the races. Which means that 2,5% for place 10-20 finally just isn't enough.

Just change the top, 140-70-35.. IMO 120-70-50 fits well enough for RSF. Definelty wouldn't want to cut the 50 at this time. 140-70, ok, maybe, don't even care that much.

[Luna]

In reality teams are not financed by races. They get the money from sponsors, the money that riders earn during stages doesn't even go to the team. The rider keeps it if he's an asshole, so in 99% of the cases the money is distributed among the teammembers..incl. mechanics etc.

Here at RSF the teams are still financed by the races .

Then change that!

[Robyklebt]

Brillant idea: Start a huge discussion that right now has no chance to be implemted, but kills any possible change here, a change that finally is good (regardless of +20 k or +40k for the winner (+25% points though IMO is a good number) AND that Buhmann seems to have enough time to do.

But if you want we can start the "financial system of RSF overhaul" discussion. This just isn't the right place.