Race day condition

[thxr]

Hi all, I just recently joined C4F, and I am impressed with all the work behind this.
Only there is one aspect of game I missed and wanted to comment here, is about race day condition, which would recreate how riders feel this specific day. Probably you already considered and discussed about this (or even you implemented some feature simulating this).
My idea would be just randomly modify starting energy for the day, e.g. in a range of +-10%. This would be visible only for your own riders, so you can adapt your tactics based on that, and at the same time you would be uncertain about rivals condition, opening door to more agressive tactics.

[thxr]

Hi all,
There have been already few months into C4F, and I should say I am still missing the idea I previously mentioned here. Now with more experience, maybe the HOW could change, having a random +-10% range on day form.
But definitely, I miss some more surprises in race, and aggressive tactics, like it would happen IRL if a rider is telling you is feeling pretty good/bad. In C4F I have the feeling you can read the race already on km0, specially on relevant tours/classics when favorites are having also same form (peak). Mountain stages seems pretty predictable as well.

[flockmastoR]

Hi all,
There have been already few months into C4F, and I should say I am still missing the idea I previously mentioned here. Now with more experience, maybe the HOW could change, having a random +-10% range on day form.
But definitely, I miss some more surprises in race, and aggressive tactics, like it would happen IRL if a rider is telling you is feeling pretty good/bad. In C4F I have the feeling you can read the race already on km0, specially on relevant tours/classics when favorites are having also same form (peak). Mountain stages seems pretty predictable as well.

Hello. Always good to have discussions on how the game can be improved and can become more realistic. For what I know, there have been ongoing discussions about such things since the game started. I can remember some ideas of a dayly form pertubations or some kind of different form curves to be more unpredictable. Not sure if I like or dislike the idea doing it with the energy. On the one hand, you can cut the loss depending on race and weather. Bringing your leader back to 1000 with long flat passages in the beginning of the race losing a helper for your number 3/4.

Overall I would be for introducing such a feature (not sure how) but I can already hear managers crying because they just built their team for 1 race in the year and then their leader is sick. Or some managers would use it as an (true or untrue) excuse not to ride for their rider.

[team fl]

I think something like a daily form sounds interesting. Doesn't have to be too much of an influence, but + 1, +/- 0, or -1 (or even 2) to the current monthly form for example. It can even be weighted, f.e. 50% +/-0, each 25 % fpr +1 or -1. So f.e. a rider has form 96, which could be 96, 97 or 95 including the daily form. Brings a bit more spicyness to it and has not too much of an influence to be a complete downer for a race.

Accidents, injuries or sickness would make the simulation more realistic, but on the other hand could reduce a positive indivual playing experience a lot. So that I wouldn't like to be implement a lot.

Not that it has to be like that, just some thoughts... I guess the main reason not to implement something like this is that the riders age every month and most riders are only able to ride a paricular race once, MSR f.e.

[Gipfelstuermer]

It's always a question in any game: How much should it depend on luck and how much on strategy/skill?

With the training of riders being based on luck, there is already a big component of luck, which can sometimes lead to frustration. It can also deliver a superstar rider for you, ok, but more often it's frustration for me ^^. In a race, there is also luck involved, e.g. if you have a sprinter with flat you prefer bad weather. If you have a sprinter without flat, you prefer good weather. Etc.... and of course you can be lucky or unlucky with unexpected behavior from opponents...

Making the race more unpredictable, I understand that to some extent... on the other hand it is up to the teams to find unpredictable strategies, work together etc... and with more teams per race, as the game grows, it can become more unpredictable, too.

Of course can think of changes in the race dynamics, e.g. if attacks cost less energy, we might see more attacks.

Interesting to discuss this, even if we have lots of work before we can consider such new features.

[flockmastoR]

It's always a question in any game: How much should it depend on luck and how much on strategy/skill?

With the training of riders being based on luck, there is already a big component of luck, which can sometimes lead to frustration. It can also deliver a superstar rider for you, ok, but more often it's frustration for me ^^. In a race, there is also luck involved, e.g. if you have a sprinter with flat you prefer bad weather. If you have a sprinter without flat, you prefer good weather. Etc.... and of course you can be lucky or unlucky with unexpected behavior from opponents...

Making the race more unpredictable, I understand that to some extent... on the other hand it is up to the teams to find unpredictable strategies, work together etc... and with more teams per race, as the game grows, it can become more unpredictable, too.

Of course can think of changes in the race dynamics, e.g. if attacks cost less energy, we might see more attacks.

Interesting to discuss this, even if we have lots of work before we can consider such new features.

Well I understand your arguments. BUT having a superstar rider with great luck in training you can dominate a whole season. So you have a lot of luck early it pays out a lot for you. The guy with bad luck has to deal with it for the whole season as well (don't think I need to explain to you). But needs to be well balanced for sure. What I am thinking is a once/twice in a rider life event both for getting a bonus and malus. The rider than shows up with an icon in your team view (not visible for others). It effects the form of the riders for some days.

I can totally live with it staying as it is, just ideas coming to my mind about it. Just some races are too predictable, probably getting bigger fields solves it a bit, as the favorites have a harder life usually.

[Chemnitz Pro Cycling Team]

I think something like a daily form sounds interesting. Doesn't have to be too much of an influence, but + 1, +/- 0, or -1 (or even 2) to the current monthly form for example. It can even be weighted, f.e. 50% +/-0, each 25 % fpr +1 or -1. So f.e. a rider has form 96, which could be 96, 97 or 95 including the daily form. Brings a bit more spicyness to it and has not too much of an influence to be a complete downer for a race.

I like this idea and would even increase the bonus from -2 to +2 form. Not more, but often saw riders having a really bad day besides having a good overall form.

Accidents, injuries or sickness would make the simulation more realistic, but on the other hand could reduce a positive indivual playing experience a lot. So that I wouldn't like to be implement a lot.

I would't implement them as well.

[Pokemon Club]

I guess some C4F players are Pro Cycling Manager Player too and are already used to the daily form. Maybe.

Another idea, if we don't want a daily form, why not putting something like a "specialization skill" one time by month between 2 trainings?
The specialization we choose has a bonus, balanced with a malus for an other specializations.
For example :
- Mountain spe : +2 Mountain/ +2 Downhill / - 1 TT / - 2 Flat / -1,4 cobbles / -1 Sprint
- Hilly spe : + 1Moun / + 1Spr / +1 Flat / + 0,7 Cob/ -2 DH / -2 TT
- Flat spe : +2 flat / + 1,4 cobbles / +1DH / +1 TT / -3Sprint/ - 3Mountain
- TT spe : +3 TT / -2 mountain / -1 flat / -0,7 cobbles
- Sprint spe : +2 sprint / + 1 Flat / + 0,7 cobbles/ -2 Mountain / -1 TT

Something like that

[Bear]

What do we actually reach with this or it should be just a new feature? I think it's very similar to form settings. With form settings it's still possible to beat better riders, if there are different bigger races in one season. But if there is only one highlight in a month, it will still be the same because everyone will do the same. But maybe i missed something?

[Chense]

Well i am not so sure about day condition - what i would still like more (and proposed before) would be different or specialized form curves

What i could also like is some "year" form (okay better 3 months for us)

Something like you can set a goal for a rider for (e g.) 5 days in those months ... for example pn stage 1, 3 and 5 - msr - january tour stage 9

You will then have a chance to increase your form on that special days either really by chance (25% +0, 50% +1, 25% +2) or it can be like constant or formsetting about a longer period ... either you choose none then youll have the actual form or for all other days you get a very slight malus - lets say 5 days with + 2 form and the other 85 days -0.1) just some fast thought

[Pokemon Club]

What do we actually reach with this or it should be just a new feature? I think it's very similar to form settings. With form settings it's still possible to beat better riders, if there are different bigger races in one season. But if there is only one highlight in a month, it will still be the same because everyone will do the same. But maybe i missed something?

Yes quite similar at the end

Well i am not so sure about day condition - what i would still like more (and proposed before) would be different or specialized form curves

What i could also like is some "year" form (okay better 3 months for us)

Something like you can set a goal for a rider for (e g.) 5 days in those months ... for example pn stage 1, 3 and 5 - msr - january tour stage 9

You will then have a chance to increase your form on that special days either really by chance (25% +0, 50% +1, 25% +2) or it can be like constant or formsetting about a longer period ... either you choose none then youll have the actual form or for all other days you get a very slight malus - lets say 5 days with + 2 form and the other 85 days -0.1) just some fast thought

There was some old topics about that
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2372&p=45996&hilit=formcurve#p45996

Why not having some refueling in th race ? All riders with food and/or water, 50 energy max can comeback. That can be use for your rider whenever you want. Can be interesting as that won't be use at the same moment by all riders. And maybe we can limit that at 1 or 2 refueling by team instead of having it for ll riders

[Pokemon Club]

And what about a weather preference for all riders also?
All riders with some weather they are less efficient.
-1 if they don't like light heat / cold / rain / wind
-2 if they don't like heavy heat / cold / rain / wind
That can be cumulative too

[flockmastoR]

I am a fan of KISS (keep it simple, stupid)

So what should be the goal of all these ideas? Make it more unpredictable? Make it more realistic? Are there better ways to achieve it? Are there more simple ways to achieve it? Does a majority of the community agree that the game is lacking "race day condition" influence?

[Robyklebt]

Agree with AAD. Not all the ideas here are automatically to be dismissed, but mostly I ask myself what it all should be for and how it makes the game more fun.

[Bear]

What do we actually reach with this or it should be just a new feature? I think it's very similar to form settings. With form settings it's still possible to beat better riders, if there are different bigger races in one season. But if there is only one highlight in a month, it will still be the same because everyone will do the same. But maybe i missed something?

I still think the same. Furthermore, more features will help the experienced teams to use this against new teams*. Experienced teams will probably use new features more or less in the same way, so it makes no difference. In my opinion we dont desperately need new features at the moment. Maybe sprint, but this is very complicated.

* for example new teams dont know about siebing/blocking/sec trick in the beginning. So make it more complicated with more options it more or less helps only experienced teams.

[Pokemon Club]

I don't know for others, but in my opinion we have too much information on riders which are not in our team. We have the knowledge of all riders skills, how they ride in tempo, it is quite easy to understand their form, so too much predictable. All of that have an influence I don't like. If I judge I have no chance I will ride less for my leaders than if I don't know if I have some chance, else if it isn't true.
We don't need big improvements as the balance seems well. But all that informations are too much for a live game against real people, I would prefer some mystery on my side.
I don't know if that make the game funnier or more realistic but for sure I would prefer that than how it is currently.
And if there is new features I don't think that help exceperienced managers, once it is integrated newcomers even don't know what is recent or not. The most important is to make the game better, who ride better or worse with isn't a problem, we don't have to adapt at the same speed.

[thxr]

I don't know for others, but in my opinion we have too much information on riders which are not in our team. We have the knowledge of all riders skills, how they ride in tempo, it is quite easy to understand their form, so too much predictable. All of that have an influence I don't like. If I judge I have no chance I will ride less for my leaders than if I don't know if I have some chance, else if it isn't true.
We don't need big improvements as the balance seems well. But all that informations are too much for a live game against real people, I would prefer some mystery on my side.
I don't know if that make the game funnier or more realistic but for sure I would prefer that than how it is currently.
And if there is new features I don't think that help exceperienced managers, once it is integrated newcomers even don't know what is recent or not. The most important is to make the game better, who ride better or worse with isn't a problem, we don't have to adapt at the same speed.

Totally agree with you here, that was my thought when opening this thread. Actually this too much information available beforehand in my oppinion is what makes the game harder for newbies, and experienced players seem to have all calculated.
Some user also mentioned about wind/weather as being an unpredictable factor, but again, that is more information an experienced manager knows how to use.

So my point was that I miss some unpredictability of riders performance. I know random comes into play when training and I like it, but once startlist is announced, there is almost none.
The only thing can surprise us a bit is opponents form, but this is chosen by managers and usually exactly pointing the important race of the month that adapts to rider attributes, so not much of a surprise. And in many cases I guess an expensive rider would not be even registered if his form is too bad.

[Carry Rhodan]

i agree with Poke and would like a little more unpredictability. Features like weather preference for all riders are fine.

The idea with the "specialization skill" sounds good, but it also means an advantage for large teams like free team.

He already has the advantage that, for example, he can almost always line up a top sprinter with top form.