Sprint 17/18, redo the sprint system

Discussion about technical stuff and suggestions for improvement.

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Cerro Torre RT
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Re: Sprint 17/18, redo the sprint system

Post by Cerro Torre RT » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:20 am

Even, though it is off topic, but I can't just keep quiet on min-tact issues.

When, once upon a time, it was implemented, the anticipated should-be average was 50 km min tact. I'm probably one of very few teams left that support this value. So yes, the min tact is fucked up, but it is not too long, but too short. Stages of 220 km, medium or hard, if the profile is accordingly, should last 2:30 and more, not 2:00.

High Flyer
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Re: Sprint 17/18, redo the sprint system

Post by High Flyer » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:33 am

Cerro Torre RT wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:20 am
Even, though it is off topic, but I can't just keep quiet on min-tact issues.

When, once upon a time, it was implemented, the anticipated should-be average was 50 km min tact. I'm probably one of very few teams left that support this value. So yes, the min tact is fucked up, but it is not too long, but too short. Stages of 220 km, medium or hard, if the profile is accordingly, should last 2:30 and more, not 2:00.
Does you seriously expect people to play for 2:30+ unless it is a cat 5 or 6 classic?
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Re: Sprint 17/18, redo the sprint system

Post by High Flyer » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:36 am

Yamaka Corse wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:10 am
Pokemon Club wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:59 pm
Yamaka Corse wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:52 pm
But Min-tacts is probably completely fucked up in most of races... I see some fantasy races 160 km, 120 minutes.. please stop that shit [OT END]
Depends of the profil not of the lenght normally for designers.
Disagree with you Poke, I like mountains stage of 2 hours, but I rode few flat (100% flat) ov 2 hours.. it is insane sometime
And why would you need a 2 hour long flat race? Flat races are quite "normally" quite simple when it comes to action.
Attack 1st few kms
Chase
Attack few 1-15km.
Min tact should be used when it is so important that 30seconds extra is needed to decide.
Which links perfectly back to why it need to stay for the sprints ;D
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Pokemon Club
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Re: Sprint 17/18, redo the sprint system

Post by Pokemon Club » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:38 am

High Flyer wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:33 am
Cerro Torre RT wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:20 am
Even, though it is off topic, but I can't just keep quiet on min-tact issues.

When, once upon a time, it was implemented, the anticipated should-be average was 50 km min tact. I'm probably one of very few teams left that support this value. So yes, the min tact is fucked up, but it is not too long, but too short. Stages of 220 km, medium or hard, if the profile is accordingly, should last 2:30 and more, not 2:00.
Does you seriously expect people to play for 2:30+ unless it is a cat 5 or 6 classic?
When I started personnally I thought it was one of the thing which make the game quite unique.

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Re: Sprint 17/18, redo the sprint system

Post by Cerro Torre RT » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:35 pm

High Flyer wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:33 am
Cerro Torre RT wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:20 am
Even, though it is off topic, but I can't just keep quiet on min-tact issues.

When, once upon a time, it was implemented, the anticipated should-be average was 50 km min tact. I'm probably one of very few teams left that support this value. So yes, the min tact is fucked up, but it is not too long, but too short. Stages of 220 km, medium or hard, if the profile is accordingly, should last 2:30 and more, not 2:00.
Does you seriously expect people to play for 2:30+ unless it is a cat 5 or 6 classic?
Quite a number of people play a lot more per day in online games.

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Coroncina2
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Re: Sprint 17/18, redo the sprint system

Post by Coroncina2 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:35 am

PP bonus for who works last kms to block is a realistic bost for MS. I never see super-trains in real races take nice position without strong flat riders that work not only to block attacks but also to bring sprinters in front. It may force suckers to work at least last kms. But maybe PTT will be able to keep sucking...

I got an idea, keep thinking of how MS work in real. Stop sprinting when you have someone in wheel it's not only very unfair but aloso risky for the health of all sprinting cyclists. in a few words it would provoke a good group fall.
I do not know why this opportunity was introduced, but if you really want to keep it, I would introduce a nice penalties (like in real races). For exaples:
-The sprinter who stops the sprint is automatically downgraded to the last place in the sprinting Group.
-If he do it 2 times in a tour rider will be out of tour.
About min-tactic:
Coroncina2 wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:41 pm
I think new teams quite because of need too time to play races (1h 30, 2h...). Could we reduce sec/km from 30 to 15, and less min tactic ?
Example Omloop Het Blad min-tactic al -70 and rest 30sec\km so 2h15!! How about 30km mintactic and rest 15sec\km so 1h12?
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Re: Sprint 17/18, redo the sprint system

Post by Robyklebt » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:36 pm

Cerro Torre RT wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:13 pm
Robyklebt wrote:Anyway, let's continue here:
Then another problem of the sprint right now is that the sprinters get slower after every 50 meters. Which isn't all that realistic either. So either an automatic 90-95-100% intensity, a percentage that guarantees that in 0 wind conditions they keep their speed for 150 meters. Or the ability to chose the intensity in the sprint tab. Want to go for a long sprint with your sprinter you'd put in 95-100 for leadout 1, 95-100 for leadout 2, then a 300m sprint with your sprinter. Opposite, you want to go for a short one you put in longer sprints for your leadouts.
At this point, there is a problem with the 150m speed keeping. In real life sprints, there are usually 2 leadouts for one km, sometimes 4. In RSF, those 3 to 4 riders are condensed to 500m. If we now adjust the speed keeping to 150m like RL, we'd have to prolong the the sprint to the whole km. If we want keep the 500, then we have to cut the real speed keeping in half too. Which would be first 50m accellerating to top speed, next 50m top speed, next 50m a noticable dropoff, and the next 50m a very sharp drop of. Those numbers would apply to full intensity sprint and could be prolonged by sprinting with less intensity.
IF that's the only complaint you have about the proposal either you didn't read it properly or the proposal is even more fantastic than I think anyway :lol:
Don't really agree with the need to condense 3-4 riders into 500 meters, especially if we get less riders generally... but even if we had 9 riders.. Better to "keep it real" for the 500 meters IMO. But ok, a detail, if this thing ever takes off to go that far I'll happily argue this point.
But any other objections, or comments on the general idea I'm proposing?
High Flyer wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:49 pm
I have to say, I 500% disagree with allowing the final sprint setting from the start of the race. This will be a gold mine for suckers, and their numbers * will* increase. Literall,y all they need to do is bring 1 93 and a cheap team, set sprint, come midway through and done. It'll be like having multiple Team Gigi's. For me, there is no compromise there.
Disagree. 600%, :D (So I win, my disagreement is stronger) It's not a technical problem, it's an attitude problem. It's easy now. Bring the same team, check in from time to time, sprint at the end. Few do it, few have the attitude to do that. But as I said, predicted this reaction (They don't call me Nostradamus Klebt for nothing after all). So a few (of many more) counter solutions are mentioned. Think of the advantages of a separate sprint tab, instead of the one blown out of proportion disadvantage!
Yamaka Corse wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:52 pm
But Min-tacts is probably completely fucked up in most of races... I see some fantasy races 160 km, 120 minutes.. please stop that shit [OT END]
OT END? Pff, was a nice wish. But I think you'll need to post some proof of your claim... "probably completely fucked up in most races"... examples? Preferably in another thread.
Coroncina2 wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:35 am
PP bonus for who works last kms to block is a realistic bost for MS. I never see super-trains in real races take nice position without strong flat riders that work not only to block attacks but also to bring sprinters in front. It may force suckers to work at least last kms. But maybe PTT will be able to keep sucking...
Yeah, why not. Although don't thing applying some sort of "PTT test" to every idea is especially useful. But yes, some sort of early bonus for the riders in tempo in the last kms is certainly a possibility that makes sense.
Coroncina2 wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:35 am
Coroncina2 wrote: ↑
16 Feb 2016, 05:41
I think new teams quite because of need too time to play races (1h 30, 2h...). Could we reduce sec/km from 30 to 15, and less min tactic ?
Example Omloop Het Blad min-tactic al -70 and rest 30sec\km so 2h15!! How about 30km mintactic and rest 15sec\km so 1h12?
I'm pretty sure new players quit for a very wide variety of reasons.
Kraftsystemrevision! Include the distance!
Basics reform: Give blue a chance!
Don't punish bugusers. We all have to use bugs, since most of them are declared as "features"!

ariostea
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Re: Sprint 17/18, redo the sprint system

Post by ariostea » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:11 pm

this needs improvement...

first step:
once a rider opens the sprint, he finishes the sprint. Let´s just take away the possibility of GOING BACK to "Mitgehen".

would be far more realistic - nobody "stops" in a sprint. There is acceleration, there is speed - what we do here in the sprint has not very much to do with simulating a bike race...

second step:
very similar: if you change the wheel to a rider or if you follow the wheel of a rider, that is on "mitgehen" himself, just have the rider still follow the wheel he has followed so far, if he can. Let´s simulate a basic speed here. Nobody is dropping back or stopping to sprint on the last 400m...

i know, the guy then follows 2 wheels basically... still better than what we have now
even taking away the possibility of changing the wheel completely would be better than what we have now...

third step:
later - i should maybe understand the sprint system first^^

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Re: Sprint 17/18, redo the sprint system

Post by gaurain rx » Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:53 pm

ariostea wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 4:11 pm
this needs improvement...

first step:
once a rider opens the sprint, he finishes the sprint. Let´s just take away the possibility of GOING BACK to "Mitgehen".

would be far more realistic - nobody "stops" in a sprint. There is acceleration, there is speed - what we do here in the sprint has not very much to do with simulating a bike race...

second step:
very similar: if you change the wheel to a rider or if you follow the wheel of a rider, that is on "mitgehen" himself, just have the rider still follow the wheel he has followed so far, if he can. Let´s simulate a basic speed here. Nobody is dropping back or stopping to sprint on the last 400m...

i know, the guy then follows 2 wheels basically... still better than what we have now
even taking away the possibility of changing the wheel completely would be better than what we have now...

third step:
later - i should maybe understand the sprint system first^^
I mainly agree with Ari but with some "adjustments". First of all, I think what he proposes is 100% valid for bunch sprint if the goal is to fit better with reality. For little groups (2-5 riders) I'm not so convinced.

first step : agree 100% that it shouldn't be possible to 100% cut your sprint but you could still have the opportunity to (try to) take the wheel of somebody who is ahead of you or overtaking you if you already launched your sprint. Sometimes in irl sprint, a rider will try to go back in the slipstream of a rider going past him... He'll probably won't be able to overtake him anymore but he could hang there and saving some speed/energy and get a better classification.

Second step : Half agreeing there

Imagine a group of 3 riders : A, B and C. A is in front, B is on "mitgehen" in the wheel of A and C is on mitgehen in the wheel of B. So we have C-B-A! Then B decides to go on "mitgehen" in the wheel of C and at the same time A launches his sprint... In this case, I don't think B should take the wheel of A, as in your proposal. In that case, A just "suprised" B and C and they just "destroy" each other.

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