The Real GIRO 2023 14h

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Re: The Real GIRO 2023 14h

Post by flockmastoR » Mon May 08, 2023 9:22 pm

Well!

41 stages without a win at the Giro are over! Nikola Tesla just winning the 2nd Giro tappa for A&D (Alexandros Karatzoglou winning also tappa 3 in 2021).

Favorite check would need some update. Baer out, which somehow gives Volta bigger chances. At least no "fear" from behind (mountain skill wise). Additionally, Payot gets at least a challenger for the mountains with Horejsi and his 88 mountain. BUT normally top3 and for Volta and boni out of reach. I see Schappy as the favorite for the team classement. Youth now between Chau (who is helper) and Nassouli (who might even be the leader for SWP).
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Re: The Real GIRO 2023 14h

Post by team fl » Tue May 09, 2023 8:25 am

Yes, the favourite check is definitely outdated. So at least for the GC favourites, here's my latest guess:

***** Volta,
**** Perisic, Payot
*** Clévénot, Horejsi, Belaili
** Steiner, Oberdorf, Nassouli, Hill
* a surprise rider

I think the two main favourites are Volta and Payot. Perisic looks good on paper too, but it mainly depends on how much VC Team Multi will be online. Due to his TT skill, I put him with Payot. Behind these three, there is a lot going on. Clévénot lost a lot in the opening ITT already due to a managing mistake. And has only 35 reg. Hill has almost no support in the mountains, Horejsi is the second best climber but has the same problems as Perisic with his manager and a worse TT skill. Belaili is there because of the support of Nassouli, could also be the other way round though. But those two together I would give two and a half stars. But I think the manager is lurking for stage win opportunites much more. Oberdorf is capable of risky tries, which could be interesting but hardly enough for more than top 10 or top 5 GC. Steiner with two stars as a dark horse. He could put Volta under pressure and have a lucky shot on one stage, who knows. The other climbers with a mountain skill of 80 or more are clear support, key domestiques and hence in my eyes not worth mentioning. So one star goes out to a possible (but highly unlikely) surprise rider....

Anyway, although I see two main favourites on paper (and a half with Perisic), this could be tricky. Payot needs time in the mountains against Perisic and Volta, Perisic time against Volta. Volta needs control. Everybody else needs mistakes of all three of them, miracles and the will to take risks. I think it's a situation that offers a lot of fun, IF the teams are willing to try something. But it's the afternoon, kwality race. I am sure it will be a blast :).
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Re: The Real GIRO 2023 14h

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Tue May 09, 2023 2:30 pm

Tappa 4: Frittata di Peperoni e Mandorle

Yesterday we had the right recipe, but AAD had the right rider. He did what he had to do for Tesla and ended a long Giro stage win drought for his team. Very well done. Our last Giro stage win was tappa 19 last year, so the drought is only 5 stages until now. That's ok. And we have great cuisine! Who cares about stage wins if you can have a nice Frittata in the evening?

Frittata di Peperoni e Mandorle
(from Antonio's recipe book 'Gemüse')
similar recipe: https://ricette-bimby.net/frittata-di-peperoni-bimby/

The Frittata has a long tradition in Italy's cuisine. It's a bit like an omlet, but it is cooked slowly over low heat, it is thicker than an omlet and often there are more ingredients inside. In this case we use Peperoni (bell peppers) and Mandorle (almonds), typical for Campania, where the stage finishes today at the Lago Laceno with a steep climb.

Is it a first fight for the climbers and GC favorites? Perhaps. In today's cycling, Lago Laceno doesn't make a big difference, Domenico Pozzovivo claimed, and he is probably right, but in C4F it can make a difference. So Big Donkey might go for Payot there, despite the small flat section to the end. Bonus seconds are up fo grabs. But how about form? Horejsi, Clevenot, Perisic, Volta... can they follow Payot? Perhaps... Would expect Clevenot to be the most likely with early form... low TT, less GC ambitions... So today Payot solo or Clevenot hanging on is our prediction, while our team can only use the power from the Frittata to try via escape...
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Re: The Real GIRO 2023 14h

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Wed May 10, 2023 10:27 am

Tappa 5: Pasticcio di Ziti e Verdure

I was wrong! Predicted Payot or Clevenot, but Hill took the win at Lago Laceno. What's on the menu today? We head west in the direction of Amalfi. But before we try AAD's famous lemon tarte, we have a nice main dish from the region. Ziti are a typical pasta sort from the region and they are popular to be used in pasta al forno, like in this Pasticcio from Antonio:

Pasticcio di Ziti e Verdure
(from Antonio's recipe book 'Pasta')
similar recipe: https://www.lacucinaitaliana.it/ricetta ... verdure-2/

Just like the Pasticcio is a nice mix of ingredients, today's stage is a nice mix of hills and flats. It looks like a hill sprint or mass sprint. Depends a lot on who siebs where, why and how hard. Mosconi hopes to be in the right group. The pasta should help him with a good carb supply, but Iwachnenko, Park and Achaval are the favorites when it comes to a hill sprint. All of then with a better sprint/flat skill mix for such a stage. So we'll probably focus on grupetto work in the beginning and then see how the race unfolds.
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Re: The Real GIRO 2023 14h

Post by Bright » Thu May 11, 2023 9:31 am

GL today guys, I'm very jealous of this beautiful thread, any of you poets joining the late night TdF? That will most likely be my pick.

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Re: The Real GIRO 2023 14h

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Thu May 11, 2023 9:40 am

Tappa 6: Pizza Napoletana

Stage from Napoli to Napoli. So it must be Pizza Napoletana! I have the original recipe from my Italian neighbors, and I have some extra Tipps on how to make it really great, even at home in a standard oven.

1.) You start with the exact ingredients (below for 1 Pizza) to form the dough. Let it breathe min 2h. Ideal is 2h and then another 24h in a sealed container.

150g Flour
85ml Water (57%, this is crucial)
5g Salt
1g Yeast

The dough will feel like it's a little bit too wet, but that's exactly how it needs to be. Use some more flour while forming the Pizza.

2.) Use home made tomato sauce. Not the one from the supermarket! Use olive oil, onions, garlic, tomatoes. Done.

3.) Supermarket Mozzarella is fine. The fresh one. Not the shredded one (that's not even mozzarella technically...)! To make it perfect, squeeze the Mozzarella to release water and let it dry a
few minutes on a piece of kitchen paper.

4.) Then you create your Pizza and let it slide into the oven. Wait !! The oven !!

5.) The oven!! 450 degrees Celsius (the guy with 70-85 hihi) recommended... mmmmh... so at home just as hot as possible. But here comes the trick! Scientist AAD will love it. Use a piece of steel in the oven as a "Pizza stone". Steel actually better than Stone. The heat from the steel goes into the Pizza super fast and that's what makes the Pizza almost as if done in a 450 degrees stone oven. All explained here https://youtu.be/ldo56hGAzHA Amazing series on how to do Pizza at home. Will try to hire this Alex YouTuber for our team.

Good luck and buon appetito !

The stage today, seems as straightforward as selecting the recipe for today, should be a mass sprint.... ah, but some hills in the beginning, so again hill sprinters? Or mass sprint? Mosconi will try again if there's a sprint but after having zero chance in the hill sprint yesterday, seems difficult to win from any sort of sprint...
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Re: The Real GIRO 2023 14h

Post by flockmastoR » Thu May 11, 2023 10:25 am

Finally, something to discuss about!!!

The dough
There's more than one way to skin a cat. But I am a purist on the dough. No industrial yeast used at the mathematicians home. We use mother yeast, a wheat sourdough they call Pasta Madre, or Lievito Madre in Italy and that is used to make any kind of wheat bread (Pane). In order to fully replace the yeast, it needs to be very active and refreshed in the morning. If it doubles within 3h in volume it is perfect. Adapt the flour and water quantitiy for the already used in the sourdough (2 parts sourdough startet, 1 part water, 2 parts flour). Best is to losely mix up flour and water first and let it rest for 20mins. After that start to knead the mother yeast into the dough for some minutes. Once you have a dough you can add the salt and knead it (don't take a shortcut here, this is crucial to have a good elastic dough). I usually start with less water to knead the dough first and just add it little by little in the end. The dough will be sticky but it is just right. Let it rest for 90 mins, stretch and fold it after 30 and 60mins. After the rest, put it in a container and let it rest between 24-72h in the refrigerator. If you already portion it before letting it rest, it will be easier to form the pizza. Just add a little bit of olive oil to cover your dough before putting it into the container. Don't forget to take out the dough 1h before you want to prepare your pizza!

Pizzaiola
Still not fully confident about a good homemade pizzaiola. I like the taste when using onion but I don't like the color, as it turns into some orange most of the time, probably it is because of the tomatoes, that you get in the supermarket. Think I will experiment with canned tomatoes from Italy. But so far, I am just using tomatoes, cut them and boil them down until most water escaped and give it a quick blend, add some salt, garlic and oregano and thats it.

Never squeezed the Mozzarella before but sounds resonable, will do that the next time. A friend of mine also uses a piece of steel and she also recommends it. Till now I am using a stone, but I can really understand the advantages of using steel. So until I can afford a house with my own pizza oven, I will also try the steel variant.
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Re: The Real GIRO 2023 14h

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Fri May 12, 2023 9:31 am

Tappa 7: Spaghetti Carbonara

CC was right in the chat. We are missing some race reports. So I am looking forward to race reports from other teams! Some statistics would be nice, too. Who had the maglia rosa for how many days? Who won how many stages? For the Gipfelstuermers, it's now one stage win! Antonio launched Ilario to victory in the sprint out of a reduced group in Napoli! The kitchen crew celebrated yesterday with the Pizza Napoletana and they also made plans for today:

Spaghetti Carbonara
(From Antonio's recipe book 'PASTA')
Similar recipe and nice video: https://youtu.be/IXABg7GX8lA (Giuseppe is on our scouting list too)

It's a classic. So classic that there is debate about where it's from but history books mostly agree it's from Lazio, where we are riding through today from Napoli to the first mountain arrival of this Giro on Gran Sasso d Italia. We will need lots of energy for that, coming from the ingredients here. What is important on this recipe: Stick to the original.

- No cream please. Use just eggs and water from the pasta pot.
- No prosciutto cotto please. Use Guancale. We usually buy a whole piece on our trips to Italy. You get it in lots of supermarket in a sealed packaging and you can keep it in the fridge for 4-6 weeks for sure. Not sure where to buy it in Germany but should also be possible.

Then the big debate amongst Italians is Parmiggiano vs Pecorino. Today we use Parmiggiano. Because we are in Lazio. If we were in the North of Italy, some would make a strong argument for using Pecorino. Anyway, both taste fantastic.

Hopefully the first mountain arrival provides a fantastic race, too. Can Hill surprise the favorites again? Or does Payot strike with the best values on paper? It's also a pretty long stage. Maybe a chance for an escape?
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Re: The Real GIRO 2023 14h

Post by flockmastoR » Fri May 12, 2023 7:29 pm

We should stop the Giro now after 7/21 stages, Volta in Rosa, Iwachnenko wearing the Ciclamino. Some recap of the first 7 stages.

Standing Rosa after 7/21 stages
0:00 Alessandro Volta (Alive And Dead)
0:22 Urs Steiner (Big Donkey)
0:28 Henri Hill (CircleCycle)
0:34 Sveindis Jonsdottir (Schappy)
0:35 Elia Eldenkönig (CircleCycle)
0:35 Luka Perisic (VC Team Multi)
0:45 Mehdi Nassouli (SouthWest Packers)
0:46 Guillaume Payot (Big Donkey)

GC wise, the most important stages are still ahead, but a 20km ITT and 2 short but steep finishes are behind us. Both with minimal shifts. In the ITT Volta could gain time in all opponents (24s on Steiner, 31s on Perisic, 47s on Hill, 57s on Payot). From then on little time losses happened at some intermediate sprints and top finishes. Today probably biggest chance so far, but with a very dangerous and good timed attack, FL and Gip took away the bonifications, finishing 18s ahead of Payot, Marco Medina won the second stage for Gipfelstuermer. 3s lost to Payot and Hill, won 1s on Steiner. On stage 4 Payot could win 5 seconds (1s + Bonification). All in all manageable so far and with the 4 steep km in the end, Volta could get into Rosa for the first day. But it looks like he will already give it back to Eldenkönig at Sunday.

Days in Rosa
6 Elia Eldenkönig
1 Alessandro Volta

Appart from the mentioned stages, one flat stage with a chaotic misclick festival sprint that Frits Flaskjer (Team FL) could finally win and 2 hill sprints with Oleksij Iwachnenko (Alive And Dead) and Ilario Mosconi (Gipfelstuermer). The flat stage was dominated by cooperation of the 2 flat sprinter teams (Team FL, CreditPommes) with the team in Rosa (CircleCycle). The hills sprints profited from the cooperation between Alive And Dead and CircleCycle. Despite being sceptical, both 2 stages went to the hill sprinters, which gives them a lead in the fight for the Ciclamino. Stage 3 was expected to be somewhere in between a HS and a classics group, depending on the way it is ridden. In the end it was softer as expected and Alive And Dead could bring his classic squad to block for a Nikola Tesla win. So 7 different riders with wins.

Stage wins by riders
1x Elia Eldenkönig (CircleCycle)
1x Frits Flaskjer (Team FL)
1x Nikola Tesla (Alive And Dead)
1x Henri Hill (CircleCycle)
1x Oleksij Iwachnenko (Alive And Dead)
1x Ilario Mosconi (Gipfelstuermer)
1x Marco Medina (Gipfelstuermer)

Stage wins by teams
2x CircleCycle
2x Alive And Dead
2x Gipfelstuermer
1x Team FL
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Re: The Real GIRO 2023 14h

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Sat May 13, 2023 1:33 pm

Tappa 8: Pasta alla Norcina

Race report and Stats. Nice. Very happy that we were able to break the CC/AAD dominance with two stage wins. It cost us à lot of energy so today might be hard grupetto work whilst we ride through the province of Umbria. It is situated next to Tuscany, with a similar landscape but less fame. The cuisine is rather rough and so we opted for this recipe:

Pasta alla Norcina
Recipe: https://www.italianstylecooking.net/pasta-alla-norcina/ from Jessica Grillo

Basically pasta with Ricotta and Salsiccia. Simple, rough and taste very umami. Will we have an umami race, too? With all these hills at the end, should be an exciting stage.
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Re: The Real GIRO 2023 14h

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Sun May 14, 2023 10:10 pm

Tappa 9: Tortelli con Granciporro

After the first Giro week, we deserve a special treat:

Tortelli con Granciporro
(From Antonio's book 'Pasta')
Similar Recipe: https://www.culturewhisper.com/r/cook/preview/5518

Some special things needed. You need a pasta maker for the fresh pasta. You need a shop with fresh Granciporro (even though could replace it with crabe meat from a tin). And you need safran. Then you are good to go with some more standard ingredients.

Eldenkönig today had all the ingredients to take a second stage win (first rider to achieve that this Giro) and reconquer the maglia rosa. Gw to CC. The GC battle continues as well. I let the GC teams comment on that for now.

Enjoy the rest day.
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Re: The Real GIRO 2023 14h

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Tue May 16, 2023 3:16 pm

Tappa 10: Farfalle di Farro con Luganega

After one day break - hope you visited your favorite local Italian restaurant - we continue with a beautiful stage through the Garfagnana. Unfortunately, we take Passo delle Radici instead of the more beautiful Passo della Foce, but ok, big peloton on narrow roads, I see...

Anyway, the Garfagnana is famous for the Prosciutto bazzone. It's the best prosciutto I ever tried. Take that as an antipasti and then we go for the following:

Farfalle di Farro con Luganega
(From Antonio's book 'Pasta')
https://antoniocarlucciofoundation.org/ ... age-sauce/

The whole wheat pasta should give everyone enough energy for the whole week and the luganega + pecorino is just... mmmmh, yummy!
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Re: The Real GIRO 2023 14h

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Wed May 17, 2023 7:40 am

Tappa 11: Zucchini Ripieni

Ganna and Remco out because of covid, San Bernardo cancelled, horrible weather every day... this Giro is not always fun, but so it's even more important we have great food ! Filled zucchini are the allrounder amongst the Italian foods. You can fill them with whatever you like... Ricotta, Mozzarella, Parmiggiano, Nduja, Salsiccia, whatever you like... the best recipe comes from Antonio though, of course:

Zucchini Ripieni
(From Antonio's book 'Gemüse')
Similar Recipe:
https://www.fontanaforniusa.com/blogs/n ... d-zucchini

Meanwhile we'll try to find the recipe for another stage win in this Giro of course. Medina's win from an attack and Mosconi's hill sprint win were nice, but another recipe is needed as yesterday's mass sprint with a 2nd stage win for Team FL showed that another sprint win for Mosconi is highly unlikely. It only worked on that stage because we magically sneaked Antonio into Ilario's group and the other three hill sprinters were looking at each other.

On paper, another hill sprint seems possible today. But yesterday only CC tried to organize one. AAD's priority is GC. SWP got his win from escape so maybe not confident for a sprint, even though Achaval on paper seems very well suited for those sprints and he also has a chance for ciclamino after the successful Achaval escape. So let's see what happens. Mass sprint or Escape win seem possible, too.
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Re: The Real GIRO 2023 14h

Post by team fl » Wed May 17, 2023 1:56 pm

Totally happy about Frits second stage win. Helps the team a lot financially, as it's not able to inscripe for another race at the moment ;).

The GC fight seems to kick off very slowly in this year's Giro. I hope that the stage on Friday will change that and offers more intesity. The ciclamino looks to be a duel among Achaval and Iwachnenko, with a little chance for Frits or Puma left. Azzurra still wide open, while Mehdi Nassouli looks like destined to win the youth classement.

Today a lot can happen: Bunch sprint, reduced sprint, early group, late escape. Depends on priorities I guess, as the next two stage will get increasingly harder. Lots to look forward to :)
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Re: The Real GIRO 2023 14h

Post by Robyklebt » Fri May 19, 2023 10:36 am

Giro starts today!

So far prelude really, handicapping if you want, give some disadvantage to the stars, Schmalen and so, Payot too, from today on the Giro really starts. Bad design by RCS I think, having 4 of the 6 stages in the last weak as very hard and decisive GC stages, and 5 of the last 7 stages GC relevant.... 6 of the last 9 inclucing today, while only 4 of the first 12, 2 of them TTs, 2 of them with mountains but where you can only expect minimal differences. Bad design. Really a first block yesterday+today, then only 3 of the last 6 stages hard would make for a much better race. At c4f not sure that much changes though.

GC here, looked at the differences and form yesterday, unfortunately forgot most of it again, but basically it seems that Hill and Perisic had better form, much better (in Hills case I had figured that out too) than the other climbers. No idea when exactly, assumed Gran Sasso for Hill, but maybe wrong?
Volta will get rosa today.
My 2 stars are back, 24" and 57" lost in the first TT, which is exactly as predicted for Steiner, 3" more than predicted for Payot.
56" for Steiner in the second TT which is way more than what it should be... 40" was the prediction, and 1'40" for Payot, who should lose 1'30". Somebody will have to explain to me after the Giro what that all means exactly...

1'20 and 2'37" back from the TTs, 1'18" and 2'26" now, so got 2+11" back. Got back 5" with Payot on Lago Laceno, bonifications and 1" advantage, didn't expect anything there, feared losing if anything, plan was really Steiner that day. On the other hand hoped for more on Gran Sasso some bonifications there... Ideally 10", but really 4 or 6" ok too. But got some IS sprint bonifications here and there, so in the end 11" seems ok. In retrospect could be more, riding better towards Gran Sasso, fighting for the stage win. Following Hill to Fossombrone, that was 7"... Let's say I left 13" on the road with Payot, stupid Donks. Add to the below expectation TTs, that's 26". But well, the Giro starts today, from today on we want to win time back, 5" at a time! Along the way a stage win, 4 mountain top arrivals plus maybe Bergamo, will look at that more closely before the stage, not now, so 4 or 5 chances, one we want. 2 or 3 ok too, but one is needed. First priority though of course the GC. Volta ahead, Perisic 36" and 1'53" ahead of my 2 stars, Hill 9" behind Steiner 59" ahead of Payot... the rest already behind me, hm, seem better than my stars, so bigger handicap. I feel somewhat insulted now. Not too scared of Hill and Perisic in a 1 on 1 fight, so the main problem as everybody could have predicted is Volta.
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Re: The Real GIRO 2023 14h

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Fri May 19, 2023 1:07 pm

Tappa 12, sorry, we mostly missed it because of a bike ride with friends. Hope you did the Ravioli in Rivoli as suggested by FL! So what do we have on the menu today for the first big mountain stage?

Tappa 13: Cotoletta alla Valdostana con Polenta Concia

Today we ride through the Valle d'Aosta to Switzerland. Well, we ride, whereas the pros take the bus... so we need some heavy carbs and proteins for the ride.

Cotoletta Valdostana:
https://blog.giallozafferano.it/dulcisi ... aldostana/
Polenta Concia:
https://www.greatitalianchefs.com/recip ... cia-recipe

The Cotoletta is similar to a Cordon Bleu but the Fontina (formaggio from the region) gives it a special note. The Polenta Concia also comes with Fontina. Fans of formaggio will be delighted.

Fans of mountain stages will also be delighted that c4f does not shorten stages. So we will see the first big showdown of the GC contenders today. Our team will continue to hunt stages. Very difficult today, but can always try from escape. Schappy might not let me go because he probably wants the mountain points. But stage hunting more important than the maglia azzurra for us. We won the maglia azzurra 5 years ago with Mateo Montesinos, so do not necessarily have to repeat that. But Giro stages you can never have enough. 16 so far in our career. Alk has 45. FL has 38. And they are still hungry, too.
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Re: The Real GIRO 2023 14h

Post by Robyklebt » Fri May 19, 2023 7:29 pm

A wasted chance for a stage win, but actually wasn't going for that today. So doesn't matter that I won the race behind Moser. 14" gained, if the race goes like this, there wasn't really much more to be gained. Another second with yes alone in the second last km, the stage with tempo by one of the 2 classics, but that's 5" or 6", the 1 or 2" lost by not having yes alone hurt more.. because that was simply a mistake, not something I decided consciously.... Of course might be a mistake not going for stage, I'll be on the mobile for the complete Thursday stage (missing the start too) off the first hour on Wednesday (sprint, so no problem) On the mobile on Tuesday, might make it home for the end... so 2 stages that look good for my stage win I'll be handicapped a bit... But no problem, Rrurrambu will win on Wednesday and in Rome.

Expected a big group to go, with CC in it, and then if AAD let's them go far enough a Hill attack. Follow with Steiner or not, decided not. The group went, Schappy chased for the mountain jersey. I hoped he would not, but then attack with Oberhofer early on the Gran San Bernardo... Hill normally can only attack on the Croix de Coeur anyway. Hm, so the race changes, now let's see if I can get a classic advantage on the Croix de Coeur, didn't, on the contrary, Prachar was ahead of one of my guys even... so stay with do nothing. The GPM escape with Oberhorfer weirdly gave up after the Croix de Coeur.. all back together, Multi riding... for Perisic, I was getting excited a bit, maybe I still get to try for the stage without trying? Then the brilliant attack with Moser and a classic. No reaction by me, as I said, wasn't into riding for the stage today, more into observing and showing my reluctance to control for stage wins. Plus it was a nice attack, no need to make ennemies!

Final climb, Steiner too early, that pisses me off, was checking closely, expected Chau to come in, was ready to click out, but early km change fucked me... must have been 01-02, reloaded, Chau in, took it out, too late. So time loss, unexpected really. Not happy with that. Then it was just waiting, Perisic went early, for him just waiting IMO better too, hang on Volta and wait... Went, caught, then didn't go in in the last km, losing 48".... sucks. Steiner with an attack even gained 12" on him... That not good for me, the further Perisic is, the more AAD can concentrate on Payot. Let's hope Hill finds a second form-high or something!

Tomorrow clearly escape day, after we all found out that there's a 6% close to the finish... bah. Sprint, would be nice, but nobody will ride for that obviously. Unhelped riders with 40 or less aren't fit, many managers will try to stay fit/become fit for Sunday. Schappy ight go for the points on the Simplon, will see how exactly he'll try that. Escape might go late, but even then, can't see CC-Packers-Gipfel riding for the hill sprint, AAD even less, he needs his guy fit for Sunday.
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Re: The Real GIRO 2023 14h

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Sat May 20, 2023 9:19 am

Tappa 14: Raclette

Today we start in the Wallis canton, the origin of Raclette. So it's an easy choice for the kitchen crew. Raclette cheese, potatoes, some charcuterie, perfect.

The stage looks like again like it could be hill sprint, mass sprint or an escape. Hope I am on time but not sure about it.
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Re: The Real GIRO 2023 14h

Post by flockmastoR » Sat May 20, 2023 11:28 am

Robyklebt wrote:
Fri May 19, 2023 7:29 pm
A wasted chance for a stage win, but actually wasn't going for that today. So doesn't matter that I won the race behind Moser. 14" gained, if the race goes like this, there wasn't really much more to be gained. Another second with yes alone in the second last km, the stage with tempo by one of the 2 classics, but that's 5" or 6", the 1 or 2" lost by not having yes alone hurt more.. because that was simply a mistake, not something I decided consciously.... Of course might be a mistake not going for stage, I'll be on the mobile for the complete Thursday stage (missing the start too) off the first hour on Wednesday (sprint, so no problem) On the mobile on Tuesday, might make it home for the end... so 2 stages that look good for my stage win I'll be handicapped a bit... But no problem, Rrurrambu will win on Wednesday and in Rome.

Expected a big group to go, with CC in it, and then if AAD let's them go far enough a Hill attack. Follow with Steiner or not, decided not. The group went, Schappy chased for the mountain jersey. I hoped he would not, but then attack with Oberhofer early on the Gran San Bernardo... Hill normally can only attack on the Croix de Coeur anyway. Hm, so the race changes, now let's see if I can get a classic advantage on the Croix de Coeur, didn't, on the contrary, Prachar was ahead of one of my guys even... so stay with do nothing. The GPM escape with Oberhorfer weirdly gave up after the Croix de Coeur.. all back together, Multi riding... for Perisic, I was getting excited a bit, maybe I still get to try for the stage without trying? Then the brilliant attack with Moser and a classic. No reaction by me, as I said, wasn't into riding for the stage today, more into observing and showing my reluctance to control for stage wins. Plus it was a nice attack, no need to make ennemies!

Final climb, Steiner too early, that pisses me off, was checking closely, expected Chau to come in, was ready to click out, but early km change fucked me... must have been 01-02, reloaded, Chau in, took it out, too late. So time loss, unexpected really. Not happy with that. Then it was just waiting, Perisic went early, for him just waiting IMO better too, hang on Volta and wait... Went, caught, then didn't go in in the last km, losing 48".... sucks. Steiner with an attack even gained 12" on him... That not good for me, the further Perisic is, the more AAD can concentrate on Payot. Let's hope Hill finds a second form-high or something!

Tomorrow clearly escape day, after we all found out that there's a 6% close to the finish... bah. Sprint, would be nice, but nobody will ride for that obviously. Unhelped riders with 40 or less aren't fit, many managers will try to stay fit/become fit for Sunday. Schappy ight go for the points on the Simplon, will see how exactly he'll try that. Escape might go late, but even then, can't see CC-Packers-Gipfel riding for the hill sprint, AAD even less, he needs his guy fit for Sunday.
Celteam also tried with Horejsi and Szanyi on the Croix de Coeur with his 60-80 in front (I didn't realize it in the race, at least not live because I was busy organizing my helpers and classics after a slight Chau sieb there. But he was way too fast (group was too close there) and VC caught him on top.

Situation now as hoped, concentrate more on Payot now, before the stage was fearing Perisic more, with his expected form advantage at the Crans Montana (and more energy due to his flat), he might have been able to follow Payot in the flatter part probably (at least what I was fearing). In the end he was unlucky (call and offline not able to put in tempo) with Volta, Horejsi and even Steiner from behind attacking, Perisic lost 48s on Volta and a flat skill point during training night. He is far from out, but he is too far away now for the "Klettentaktik", meaning he also needs a bigger gain.

All in all happy with the stage, what still is a mystery is how the mountain ITT will be, is Payot winning time there on Volta? The more I look at it, the more I think this will happen.
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Re: The Real GIRO 2023 14h

Post by Robyklebt » Sat May 20, 2023 3:20 pm

Cool! I win time? Don't really think so....
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Re: The Real GIRO 2023 14h

Post by flockmastoR » Sat May 20, 2023 3:21 pm

Robyklebt wrote:
Sat May 20, 2023 3:20 pm
Cool! I win time? Don't really think so....
Cannot remember such steep kms, there you will gain time for sure, is the flat part enough? Probably, but I won't bet on it
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Re: The Real GIRO 2023 14h

Post by flockmastoR » Sat May 20, 2023 5:05 pm

We should stop the Giro now after 14/21 stages, Volta in Rosa, Iwachnenko wearing the Ciclamino. Some recap of the second 7 stages.

Standing Rosa after 14/21 stages
0:00 Alessandro Volta (Alive And Dead)
1:09 Martin Moser (VC Team Multi)
1:26 Henri Hill (CircleCycle)
1:30 Luka Perisic (VC Team Multi)
1:54 Urs Steiner (Big Donkey)
2:11 Guillaume Payot (Big Donkey)
2:27 Mehdi Nassouli (SouthWest Packers)
3:29 Pavel Horejsi (celteam)

Stage 8: Too steep for the classics, something for the flat and downhill strong climbers with earlier form or the SWP 80-70 guy. CC not online and with Packers and Donkey two teams in the escape for a potential win from the peloton. So decided to let the group have it and save power. Even with Achaval in the group, which was a bit annoying concerning the fight for the Ciclamino, but anyway. In the end, the power saving part didn't really work out, as VC made the race fast in the back in the mountains by attacking with a classic and siebing early, attacking with both classics and so on. In the end, was all under control in the peloton to reach the final climb. There Payot and Hill attacked on the last steep km Perisic attacked and landed in front of Hill. Payot caught back in the downhill. Some seconds lost to Perisic and Hill. In the end Volta following the wrong 80-70 guy otherwise would have won some seconds back.

Stage 9: ITT, not online but discussions about form and form setting was the consequences. Eldenkönig winning back Rosa, Volta winning time on all opponents (13s on Perisic, 56s on Steiner, 1:06 on Hill, 1:40 on Payot). Less than to be expected on Perisic.

Stage 10: Flat stage with some early steep kms. In the end a clear flat sprinter stage, CC did try to initiate a HS chance, but way to long for my taste, need some energy left for the GC fight, Iwachnenko finishing second getting the wheel of Frits with the second sprint win.

Stage 11: The more logical HS stage. With Achaval showing some weakness already on stage 10, it was 3 vs. 3 with Gip/CC/AAD against FL/Donkey/SWP, Creddit Pommes off. The HS once again won the battle and Park with the first sprint win for CC at the GIRO.

Stage 12: Classics terrain. Looked good for Tesla. FL with 2 guys in the group. So we decided to give it a try. If there would have been a bigger group, we probably let them through, but stage was not hard to control until the Colle Braida. But there the opponent climbers made it hard for AAD going for Tesla. Payot with the sieb, AAD trying to keep Celsius in the race in the steep kms, Volta no fighting and dropped, all climbers+80-70 guys in tempo. Looked awfull to lose 20s or something here. But the decision to wait for Celsius was right. With Prachar and Celsius big time gains in the flat and catching the climbers even before the last 5kms. Still the train was broken. Hoped for riding with Chau for most of the flattish downhill parts, but with the climbers in front, couln'd risk it and had to destroy Prachar. The final sprint was then won by Dan Borovicka (celteam) who used the Gip train very nicely. AAD with big mistake to get stuck in traffic with Tesla at 150m.

Stage 13: Hardes stage so far. With Col du Grand Saint-Bernard, Croix de Coeur and Crans Montana 3 hard climbs. A group was formed with CreditPommes, Gipfelstuermer and CC all having 2 riders + Stalejsi from celteam. But Schappy going for mountain points and controlling the group early, they gave up and the peloton reached the first mountain united. At one of the very first steeper km, Poulnikov and Outschakov attacked and a chained escape resulted from it with Schappy having 2 classics and Oberdorf there, Gip with Perucca and Medina, celteam with, again, Stalejsi. Looked dangerous, even after letting them some more time easily by not riding immediately. But from then AAD controlling, with Loschmidt/Avogadro to the top, while Schappy was riding with one of the classics gaining minute after minute, beeing in virtual Rosa. But on top he stopped, waiting for the dropped members of the group. Gap went down to 2-3minutes at the foot of the Croix de Coeur. There Iwachnenko took over the control, plan was to ride as long as the unfit deCoulomb is dropped and then continue with a reduced classics group. At km 140 Augustin dropped and Iwachnenko going out of tempo, Chau in last second for the blue sieb when at the same km celteam attacked with Szanyi and Horejsi while still having Stalejsi in the group. Celsius was dropped by Chau and rode in the back. VC rode with one of his classics all the way up and catching back celteam who lost time due to Horejsi beeing caught too early. VC not stopping and riding in the downhill, Celsius giving up, FL riding with a classic some seconds behind for quite some time. AAD still with Prachar, Tesla, Chau and Volta, Donkey with both Climbers and 2 classics, VC with Perisic and the 80-70 guy and both his classics, Hill isolated, Clevenot with just 1 helper for the downhill part. Before the flat part started. VC attacking with the 80-70 and one of his classics. No reaction from the favorite climbers for the stage win, so he won the stage. AAD starting a bit late, so Prachar needed to go red and a bit under reg. Crans Montana then pretty straight forward, ride defensively, we are used to it. So Chau in last second, tricked Steiner into an attack, 1s in front. Continue with Chau and go in some kms late with Volta when fearing an attack. Worked with the Perisic attack on km 202, stay in with Volta, looked like losing some time on Payot who kept his nerves perfectly and got place 2 and 12s by attacking on km 205, attacking over Perisic, perfectly. Perisic was then caught back. On the last +6 Volta and Horejsi attacking out of tempo, Perisic not hanging or attacking himself, lost 48s there.

Stage 14: Flat stage with early climb and late +6. CC with the goal for a HS, AAD with promised help. 4 men group with 2 CreditPommes and 2 VC Team Multi riders. Smelled like they don't want to allow a simple energy saving stage. VC than attacking with a classic, Prachar was hanging there, but not fit enough to follow the red attack. So plan B was to go with Chau to the top to avoid additional classic attacks and climber siebs. Stage didn't look like a dangerous one, but dangerous enough to be forced to kill a rider we don't want to be killed today. In the back Loschmidt riding up the hill in red and Avogadro downhill, with one CC helping there. Top group was 6-7 minutes in front, which was scary at that time with VC having a classic rider and 2 flat riders in the group. At the end of the downhill, Perisic attacked with the probably fitter flat riders. Volta hanging there trying to kill the attempt, another attack, then stopped following. VC continued some kms, but gave up, so the following was succesfull. In fact, the attack itself - that early, was not looking too scary. All peloton reunited, CreditPommes with 2 more riders from ~90km to the end. CC controlled it very good until the final +6, There the sieb and a group with Mosconi, Park and Iwachnenko for the win. Iwachnenko won the stage with a 100m sprint.

Days in Rosa
10 Elia Eldenkönig
3 Alessandro Volta

Stage wins by riders
2x Elia Eldenkönig (CircleCycle)
2x Frits Flaskjer (Team FL)
2x Oleksij Iwachnenko (Alive And Dead)
1x Nikola Tesla (Alive And Dead)
1x Henri Hill (CircleCycle)
1x Ilario Mosconi (Gipfelstuermer)
1x Marco Medina (Gipfelstuermer)
1x Hala Achaval (South West Packers)
1x Puma Park (CircleCycle)
1x Dan Borovicka (celteam)
1x Martin Moser (VC Team Multi)

Stage wins by teams
4x CircleCycle
3x Alive And Dead
2x Gipfelstuermer
2x Team FL
1x South West Packers
1x celteam
1x VC Team Multi

Big Donkey, Schappy and CreditPommes missing in the winners list so far.
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Re: The Real GIRO 2023 14h

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Sun May 21, 2023 1:41 pm

Tappa 15: Risotto alla Milanese con Ossobucco

We finish the second week with a real highlight, meaning a highlight of a hilly stage from Seregno to Bergamo and a culinary highlight:

Risotto alla Milanese con Ossobucco
(From Antonio's recipe book 'Gemüse')
Similar recipe: https://www.lacucinaitaliana.it/ricetta ... di-milano/ even though Antonio's original is a bit more refined I would say

The Risotto Milanese is probably the most famous one from the region, also the tastiest one, so that sometimes it's even served with a gold leaf, totally unnecessary in Antonio's view. The safran in the risotto is worth enough anyway and if anything a rosa leaf would fit better to the Giro!

At the end of week 2, we ask ourselves if anybody can take rosa away from Volta. Maybe he will gift it away to an escape for a while but in general AAD had the whole race under control so far. Help from FL on the flat stages, help from CC on hilly stages and even on the only mountain stage, help from Schappy and VC, so everything under control. Things can change quickly of course. And this Giro is totally backloaded. Next week the decisive one. Even though today looks interesting too. Finishing 7* -5 -4 -3 should favor the climbers in the end, but the stage is long and very hilly. Lots of things can happen.
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Re: The Real GIRO 2023 14h

Post by team fl » Mon May 22, 2023 8:09 am

Second rest day, the Giro has barely started. Next week is the Payot festival I've heard. I've also heard that he will try to copy Clévenot's winning tactic from yesterday's stage. 3rd stage win for Team FL, a bit surprising, but not unappreciated. Regarding GC, Clévenot is happy about a top 10, while the lack of effort in the stage 1 ITT is still haunting him.

As implied in the first sentence, the first two weeks of the Giro were like an apple: It tastes okay-ish, is theoretically good for your health and does the job nutrition wise, at least for a bit, but it's neither a full meal nor a candy bar. It's a reasonable snack, but boring. Nothing to be excited about (if you're not starving). And there are bad apples too. But that's another story.

But who were the winners of these two first weeks? I guess the main winner is AAD, who did everything right so far. Volta has a decent advantage in the GC, Iwachnenko wears the Ciclamino and so far, he never really was in danger. Very good control, looking for alliances, really nothing to critisice (besides riding against Frits, grrr...). CircleCycle is leading the teams in stage wins, so also a winner, who thought. And the third team to mention here is Schappy with the everlasting Lena Oberdorf and the quest for the Maglia Azzurra. Might annoy some early escapers sometimes, but the dedication for the cause is admirable.

Then there are the ones with the fighting spirit, like Hala Achaval fighting for sprint points, or Oleksander Ouchakov fighting for mountain points and early groups. And last but not least (although he is very last in the GC): Peter Schmalen. The rider with the red lantern who fights every stage with a little hill to be accepted in the Gruppetto. Besides some small hiccups, the Gruppetto has been a winner too so far with a good cooperation usually, saving every rider in danger.

So, who are the losers? Well, although winning a stage: Clévenot in the GC. Not that he had big chances to win it, but losing almost 2 min in the first stage is kind of a bummer. Top 10 still possible, but it could have been much better. Second loser is Perisic, also in the GC, as he lost valuable time when he couldn't decide who to hang on or what to do during stage 13 (I am aware that there was a connection problem, just for the protocol). And what about the team with only leaders? Big Donkey has no stage win so far. Payot, the climber everybody is afraid of is still more than 2 min back in the GC, mainly due to bad performances in the ITTs. Can he turn it around in the mountain heavy third week? I would not write him off yet. The same is true for CreditPommes' sprint ambitions. There are two stages waiting for the flat sprintes. And due to the hard programm left, maybe another win out of an early group is possible, maybe even for Schappy, who seems happy with just the Maglia Azzurra...
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Re: The Real GIRO 2023 14h

Post by Robyklebt » Mon May 22, 2023 1:43 pm

Yesterday my masterplan was really for a sprint without Tesla... While being afraid of offering Volta a win. Lekubarri fit, last climb, the 8 with or without pavé that got transformed into a 7*, sieb by Payot, Lekubarri hopefully ahead of Tesla, comes back, sprint train Steiner-Lekubarri-Payot... With Volta on the wheel, Nassouli probabably winning, unless Lekubarri somehow manages to change train and go there. Possibly start the train on a wheel as well, all not decided yet, but a foolproof plan.

Then Steiner and Rossi went on the attack, ok ,not that bad, Rossi wasn't needed at the end, Steiner with a bit less still ok, (he wasn't). Payot then helping Lekubarri for a few km, after all Lekubarri was the key. Then Lekubarri follows, argh... he follows nicely, 10" or 11" advantage before that 7*, thought they stay ahead or just caught, but no, behind the group for Lekubarri, Medina ahead, in the group, bad man, he rode more too... weird. Anyway, the foolproof masterplan by then had made me look like a fool, so attack with Payot, with the classics all weakend AND the hope of Lekubarri in the same group, logic. Originally was pretty sure an attack was pointless, that the classics would catch back. (Although if Nassouli makes tempo maybe not, hadn't though of that) 2" ahead, Oberdorfer 1" back, comes back, keeps the 1", 5" won for Payot with his third place. Good, each time I don't plan the attack we gain 5", don't dislike it, even if it will take quite a while like this to get rosa. But we're patient.

2 weeks losers: Yes, Donks clearly a loser so far, Rrurrambu mostly not in sprints and when then beaten. Riding badly on the Gran Sasso stage. For the rest actually all ok, the race never offered more (or I didn't see it) for Payot/Steiner, it's like the real Giro, waiting for the last week. Only difference is that unfairly Volta hasn't been removed with Covid yet.
Schappy clearly a loser too though. Stopped writing his reports in his press center, and the last ones were negative, he declared his project to be a failure. So if he sees himself as a loser... then he has to be one too. Ok, maybe not, after all CC probably sees himself as a loser of these 2 weeks too, usually he wins 50% of stages...
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