Tour des Pavés - afternoon edition

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team fl
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Tour des Pavés - afternoon edition

Post by team fl » Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:34 pm

After some replanning and a very fair gesture from Dynamo Leinand, the Tour des Pavés afternoon edition is set, including Team FL, starting with the following riders:

x1 Fiorino Forte
x2 Günther Grün
x3 Janis Jansons
x4 Kornelius Kinn
x5 Pierluigi Piano
x6 Prometheus Proulx
x7 Terry Tiktak
x8 Volkmar Vogt
x9 Zacharias Zahn

Goal: represent all cannon fodder teams! Wasting money seems not to be a real option, as the team is fairly cheap and winning everything neither, due to reasons.
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Re: Tour des Pavés - afternoon edition

Post by team fl » Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:44 pm

Short favourite check:

General classement:

***** Pavlo Poulnikov (Gipfelstuermer)
**** Giacomo Gerbi (Gipfelstuermer), Tim Bradman (Big Donkey)
*** Another Gipfelstuermer rider, Raffaele Pecci (Big Donkey)
** a surprise rider
* Matthew Irvine (r QUICK), Pierluigi Piano (Team FL), Ramiro Galeano (Liberty Sartène)

Youth classement:

*** Pierluigi Piano (Team FL)
** Leopold Laeser (Gipfelstuermer), Mads MeylandSmith (Gipfelstuermer)
* Mattia Savinci (r QUICK), Gabriel Richard (r QUICK)

Team classement:

*** Gipfelstuermer
** Big Donkey
* a suprise team
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Re: Tour des Pavés - afternoon edition

Post by team fl » Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:36 pm

Grande Volkmario! :)

Stage 1 result and GC standing:

01. 00:00 Volkmar Vogt (Team FL)
02. 00:04 Viktor vonGödrich (Gipfelstuermer)
03. 00:06 Ceare Camoranesi (r QUICK)
04. 00:10 Pierluigi Piano (Team FL)
05. 00:10 Sergi Armenadriz (Liberty Sartène)
06. 00:10 Matthew Irvine (r QUICK)
07. 00:10 DucThiep Tran (Big Donkey)
08. 00:10 Raffaele Pecci (Big Donkey)
09. 00:10 Leopold Laeser (Gipfelstuermer)
10. 00:10 Salvatore Zamorano (r QUICK)

Points classement:

030 Volkmar Vogt (Team FL)
025 Viktor vonGödrich (Gipfelstuermer)
021 Cesare Camoranesi (r QUICK)

Youth classement:

01. 00:10 Pierluigi Piano (Team FL)
02. 00:10 Leopold Laeser (Gipfelstuermer)
03. 00:10 Fiorino Forte (Team FL)

Team classement:

01. 00:00 All teams at the same time after stage 1
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Re: Tour des Pavés - afternoon edition

Post by Quick » Mon Oct 24, 2022 4:48 pm

r Quick gave his comeback around a year ago. We still had a couple riders, I bought over a year ago. One of them Romelu Meunier. I think around 64-86-77 with 84 pave. He won it in a sensational fight against Alkworld on the last stage and set us up for a wonderful future.

This year we're stronger than ever and yet don't feel as confident. Still we'll try everything with the following line up

1 - Matthew Irvine
2 - Salvatore Zamorano
3 - Xaver Wicki
4 - Cesare Camoranesi
5 - Gio di Stefano
6 - Gabriel Richard
7 - Mattia Savinci
8 - Marco Moser
9 - Robert Klebhuber

First stage was already good and bad. Good because of the result. 3rd for Cesare is great! Bad because Wicki was in danger. Siebed too early. Wasn't fit but thought wasn't too bad either. Hoped to have him at 900 or so tomorrow. Then maybe fit the day after. But had to work too much.

Expected a bit more fight in the front. Bradman not even trying at the 2. But okay, Cesare very happy with his 72 about that.
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Re: Tour des Pavés - afternoon edition

Post by Robyklebt » Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:55 am

As usual bad favorite check by FL.

Pulnikov-Gerbi ok, strong, putting one as ***** ok
But then a third Gipfel at ***? No chance. Gipfel won't be able to keep 3 guys in the race for too long. Of the 5 80+ already one out, on the harder stages others will drop. Keep Pulnikov-Gerbi fit.

Today with the wall very bad for Bradman&Pecci. Actually without today Bradman would have been the clear favorite. But while I think that flat stars should have chances in the pavé-tour, this really is too flat overall, even with today. A Pulnikov-Gerbi vs Bradman-Pecci fight after the hill usually. If I stay close enough still chances for the GC obviously. A real harder RVV stage missing, even if maybe the difference between Gipfel and Big D. wouldn't have been huge either.

Anyway, 2 Gipfels vs 2 Donkeys, then it's Irvine, Piano really. Hoping to profit from me not wanting to sieb away my 7x guys away and Gipfel depending on the situation not too much into siebs either.

My team too old mostly, Baas, Lambert, young Vanuytsel are pure batteries at this point, Tran is developing into one.
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Re: Tour des Pavés - afternoon edition

Post by Robyklebt » Tue Oct 25, 2022 4:47 pm

Ok, prediction all wrong...

Bradman and Pecci not dropped, double win, now GC favorite I guess. Gipfel still 3 vs 2 in GC, and the helper advantage if he decides to go 5 vs 2 or maybe 3 early. So not done, tomorrow looks rather anti Bradman-Pecci, the 2 last stages more favorable if I remember correctly.

Very late mintacts, after the most important km, so not exactly sure who was in tempo and who not, but nice that my 2 guys stayed on. Unexpected too, thought I would be forced to either sacrifice one for chasing or ride with Carpinteiro behind (Carpinteiro did well, that would have been the tactic)
Quite confused by Gipfeltactics, Gerbi sacrificed for no benefit? Form? But even without form he seems as strong as Fischer really... 100 vs 85 would be 81,3 vs 81.6, so on that day Fischer better, but that's one day, rest would be less difference. Strange. Laeser Leader? But ok, Pulnikov and Fischer are still close. So is Piano. Grrrr. Maybe the tactic was to profit from the weakness of my team in the next 3 days, now I will have to control. Vanuytsel! Short! Carpinteiro! Lambert! Tran!
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Re: Tour des Pavés - afternoon edition

Post by Quick » Tue Oct 25, 2022 6:15 pm

Bit surprised about the finish today. Didn't really understand the Gip tempo, especially with Fischer then. Even if I come back, absolutely no danger for anything. Not for the stage and certainly not for GC.

Thought Bradman would win more clearly then. 7 seconds after the attack...very much. Laser surprisingly strong though. Only 1 second in the end. Everything open still but now the really hard pave stages come. Will take a lot from Gip to win but he has a lot to offer either.

Now with the hard stages, the suffering for the quicks will really start. With a too flat Ronde stage and too hard late pave on most other stages, I doubt I can make it too interesting but I'm here to try.
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Re: Tour des Pavés - afternoon edition

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Wed Oct 26, 2022 11:34 am

So far we have not been able to make use of the high average pavé value in our team. It's mostly bad management of course, but don't want to talk about that as I have many other excuses of course: In pavé races, average pavé value doesn't matter that much IMO. Mostly you need 6 helpers to keep 3 top riders fit. For those 3 riders, pavé matters a lot, but what also matters a lot is sprint value, especially in this field with Piano and Camoranesi, and we clearly lack sprint value. What also matters is flat value, because between the pavé sections, there's usually asphalt. In the flat there's this Bradman monster - who also has the highest pavé value and who didn't even drop on a +9****, so no clue how to get rid of him. There's also this Irvine monster. We dropped him yesterday, but he always looks like a threat and scares the hell out of our max. 86 flat riders. By the way, form matters as well and in that sense it's really a weakness of Tour des Pavés that it happens end of October, a month which is half season half off-season. Next year we should consider moving TdP into Nov, Dec or Jan.

Anyway, 3 more stages to come. Lots of opportunities for the high average pavé value team.
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Re: Tour des Pavés - afternoon edition

Post by Quick » Wed Oct 26, 2022 5:48 pm

Broke the first rule of pave races "don't do something before the last pave" but really nothing to lose. Expected to get fully siebed anyway so worst case you catchand sieb me anyway. Best case I come through but getting caught after the pave and then pulled to the finish works for me too.

Lovely 4 man TTT though. Unfortunate I had to leave so abruptly. Sprint then more off than online... but the 2 Donks just too strong.

What happened in the back after my attack? Just Carpinteiro and then the Bradman sieb? How much time did you gain at pave? So many open questions.
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Re: Tour des Pavés - afternoon edition

Post by Robyklebt » Thu Oct 27, 2022 2:57 pm

Chase was mostly Carpinteiro, aided by Baas-Lambert in the last few km. Before the pavé the advantage was something around 1'20"? 56" 33" 13" or so the thing on pavé then?

My plan basically was to sieb there one km, ride up or chase with Tran or Meucci, but then Gipfel dropped on the pavé, so rode, a bit worried about energy, but turned out fine (almost, almostI) With the Tran-Meucci plan it's Gipfel that catches you if he rides to keep those 2 away, or your win if he doesn't I suspect, wasn't really that interested in the stage...

Now 2 more days, let's see if Bradman-Pecci can keep yellow, not automatic, the TEAM still scares me.
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Re: Tour des Pavés - afternoon edition

Post by Robyklebt » Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:09 pm

Finally an interesting stage.

A bit confused by Gipfel-tactics again, I would have done different ones, but he has yellow, so his must be right.

With Proulx in front at 16' I was going to be forced to ride anyway, so why sieb that early? I liked that, I kill a rider, but he kills one too. Then the Fischer attack, again, I kill a rider, but he kills 1, plus clearly weakens his number 3, Fischer, Today in his place I very probably would have done nothing until the ***** near the end, let me control Proulx... yes, 16' but I still need to be in tempo from the moment I started with Vanuytsel, while he keeps his team fresher for tomorrow. Then basically something like he did at the end. Good attack by Pulnikov in the right moment too, probably 2 km later I would have been in tempo (originally planned at the 2, seemed tempo there should be enough to stay in reg, then but as often happens postponed it...) Even then, was actually optimistic to keep yellow there, Was 10" to gain for Pecci, he gained 11", but Farnerud from the front group was siebed and didn't ride anymore, so 4" bonifications. And ok, I should just have ridden all 3 km with Pecci, the final pavé, then probably it's enough to keep yellow.
So now I'm the chaser, but my team disadvantage should be a bit smaller than I feared before the stage, Fischer out of GC and not fit, , Gerbi not fit, Meyer not fit, only Laeser and Pulnikov fit.... in Pulnikov's case not sure, he might be in reg after all, blue attack, then a few km shared tempo, so with 43 reg.. .could just be enough? Or if not it's not by much... Anyway, important for tomorrow obviously.
Anyway, let's see what happens tomorrow, for Big Donkey the leader now is clear, it's Pecci, Bradman 51" back is too much. For Gipfel is relatively clear too, Pulnikov, Laeser with less pavé than Pecci, even if he's close is more of a challenge than defending with Pulnikov. But of course Laeser with more chances than Bradman now... grrrrr. At least Bradman dominates Irvine!
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Re: Tour des Pavés - afternoon edition

Post by Quick » Thu Oct 27, 2022 9:36 pm

Also confused by Gipfel tactic. Thought he'd sieb harder but actually crazy attack. Never had a good chance and with Fischers reg, not really dangerous. But still dangerous enough I guess...

And then I saw Donks flat team. Short behind, so really only Carpinteiro left. Tomorrow maybe Short fit again but Carpinteiro not. Anyway, the Donk team is vulnerable.

No idea who is fit from the Gips though.

Unfortunately, I missed the Gerbi attack. Hung on him, then the pave came and unhung.Forgot hanging again. Not even sure if nobody was in tempo or only a weak Donkey.

Missed my chance. Tomorrow offline anyway. Hope you have a good fight. After all a more thrilling tour than I expected.
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Re: Tour des Pavés - afternoon edition

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Fri Oct 28, 2022 11:53 am

We confused Donkey and Quick! What a success! Or not? Sometimes when managers in RSF say they are confused it can mean they are confused because they didn't expect such a stupid strategy... but in this case, if the strategy brings Poulnikov into yellow, I take the confusion as a compliment!

The idea was to make the race hard for Laeser. With 52 reg, he might be able to gain an energy advantage for the next day. So we siebed some Donkey helpers, then later attacked. Not really dangerous with Fischer's 37 Reg, but still Donkey had to react. Couldn't let him go, so that made the race fast. Then we took over again, sieb Poulnikov, Tempo Gerbi. Attack with both of them, hope that Bradman/Pecci follow and lose energy. But they didn't follow! Good to gain time and take yellow! Bad for energy though! Bradman/Pecci probably both fit today... But 3'' advantage for Poulnikov in GC now! Let's see if we can defend that.
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Re: Tour des Pavés - afternoon edition

Post by Robyklebt » Fri Oct 28, 2022 5:06 pm

Another rather boring stage, nothing happening until the last 5 km really. Escape through or not? Not sure, but then my goal was less the stage and more the bonifications for Pecci. So 3rd ok too. Good attack by Liberty on the pavé sector before the last one, perfect timing, but to keep my helpers, 2 each, I went slow, then had 3 not too dead helpers to do the almost 20 km, was 1'01" after the pavé sector, went up to over 1'10", then Tran and Meucci brought it back to under 50, 45" or even less? There thought that might have a chance to get them still.

Tactic easy, tempo with Bradman, hope he doesn't make Pecci fight too much. 89 vs 100 form, so 85.3 vs 84, Bradman with 1 more energy point at the end, had 3 more a bit before, then took away a helper... probably should have dropped my 2 helpers after the Libertyattack, continue with just 5 riders, 2 for Pecci, 0 for Bradman... Hm, maybe not.

Anyway, sieb sieb sieb sieb, 3 left before the last km, I somehow assumed that Pulnikov didn't have form, he didn't really seem all that strong so far (even if the dropping on stage 2 was clearly fighting off) But can't have been that bad, fought less than Pecci (who lost 8 or so compared to Bradman on the first of the 5 km, then more, after 4 it was already around 50 less...) Was pretty confident before the last km, difference most likely not big enough to drop Pecci, don't think Pulnikov can attack vs Bradman, sprint, just need to end in front of Pulnikov... but Pulnikov attacked 2 sec away from the Bradman-tempo, who followed, while Pecci couldn't. Grrr.

So 3 stages, but only second in GC, after stage 2+3 of course I was the favorite, finally lost it yesterday, which was the only really interesting stage of the tour finally. Bah. Go for Bradman yesterday? Maybe better in retrospect... but he won 2 stages so he shouldn't complain.
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Re: Tour des Pavés - afternoon edition

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:24 pm

Robyklebt wrote:
Fri Oct 28, 2022 5:06 pm
Tactic easy, tempo with Bradman, hope he doesn't make Pecci fight too much. 89 vs 100 form, so 85.3 vs 84
That explains a few things. Poulnikov 90 and Laeser 99 today. Poulnikov as many helpers as possible, then less fighting (or actually no fighting?) vs Bradman on the last five km. Laeser was suffering hard though, eventually dropped. Luck for me that Pecci also had to fight.

Overall, the tour was more interesting than expected with only 5 teams. In GC an interesting duel and some attacks on every stage, today heartbreaking last km catch of the escape.

Thanks to all participating teams. I think we've seen some contenders for the Spring Classics 2023.
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Re: Tour des Pavés - afternoon edition

Post by Robyklebt » Sat Oct 29, 2022 8:34 am

Now I'm confused even more...

Bradman 86.3 incl. form 85.3
Pulnikov 83,9, incl. form 83.2
Pecci 82, incl. form 84 oh, seems to have been 99 yesterday after all, so 83.7

Absolutely no problem with loading, I always had 2 there, except a short time rather early, that's why Bradman had 3 energy more, brought it down to 1 by taking away one helper (resp. riding with 2 guys) shortly before the last pavé. Don't think Pulnikov can have had more than a 5 point advantage?

Fighting, normally you fight too, just don't see it as obviously as me because you don't have Bradman to compare...Very weird anyway, Pecci should have been able to follow... very weird, must have been really close. (But should really be clear I can follow) Or Buhmann/Luques secretly implemented that stupid idea of random form changes somehow, but very strange anyway, incl. getting away vs Bradman, ok, never tried attacking with a stronger and equally fit (fitter I'm pretty sure actually) in tempo, but ok, maybe on ***** the attack boost is bigger, like on very steep climbs... Before the last km I was actually confident that you couldn't attack, very slight worry that Pecci might drop, but thought normally he can hold another 2 km at least. It gets critical when you lose lots of energy by fighting, not just 10 more than the guy in tempo. (Pavé tempo is rather cheap, in tempo with the best guy you almost always lose less energy than the followers)

Very weird, very weird.

As for Bradman's form, since Kwick did me the honor of writing me a PN. Of course form for Paris-Tours. Like Irvine I suspect. Chances to win Pavé of course much higher than winning Paris-Tours, but Bradman seemed to be my best chance to win it. Then the group simply didn't fit at all to Bradman, Gamboa who normally shouldn't be in the front with a *** pavé in there looked likely to survive, did, a Bradman siebed would have most likely killed him, and more importantly there seemed to be no good Bradman companions around, Just Ortner, but since I still thought he's called Orter at the time... or maybe I had learned by then and was just confused by it still. Anyway, just never looked like a "sieb, then later attack" action had any chances to succeed, so refrained from pointless attacks and even more from pointless siebs, even if of course the temptation was there. So the Bradman-form a big failure, but would put the form the exact same way for him. I win Paris-Tours, that's big. I win the Pavé tour, that's ok, I'll take it, gladly, but rather improve my Paris-Tours chances by 2% than my Pavé chances by 20%. Plus we don't know the groups anyway, in this group with 100 form Bradman wins I guess. But in a stronger group maybe not, probably not. Same for Paris-Tours, the group I got looked bad for Bradman from km 1, another group despite Tim's lack of sprint might look better.

As for Gipfel's idea
Gipfelstuermer wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 11:34 am
By the way, form matters as well and in that sense it's really a weakness of Tour des Pavés that it happens end of October, a month which is half season half off-season. Next year we should consider moving TdP into Nov, Dec or Jan.
Make choices! I see no reason to change the pavé tours spot in the calendar just so we can all have topform. Make choices, you made yours against the pavétour with Pulnikov and won, I made mine for the pavétour for Pecci and lost (in my defence Pecci was an 83, 80.4 pavé man when I made the form). Choices. Plus the form guessing was sort of interesting, Kwick had fun with Bradman guessing (a bit depressed he figured it out on the first day when I had 85 form) I had fun with Pulnikov/Fischer guessing. Gerbi out soon, so not good, Laeser mysteriously a leader, so good form, this was clear early, but Pulnikov/Fischer not) Much better like this.
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Re: Tour des Pavés - afternoon edition

Post by Quick » Sat Oct 29, 2022 10:35 am

He's still called Orter :roll:

Gratz to the Gip. Thought Bradman is unbeatable here but okay, Paris Tours form. Makes also sense.

Nice tour after all. Thanks to all participants.
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Re: Tour des Pavés - afternoon edition

Post by Robyklebt » Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:22 am

Shit, it was Orter? See. that's why it didn't work at Paris-Tours.
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Re: Tour des Pavés - afternoon edition

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Sat Oct 29, 2022 5:19 pm

Robyklebt wrote:
Sat Oct 29, 2022 8:34 am
Now I'm confused even more...

Bradman 86.3 incl. form 85.3
Pulnikov 83,9, incl. form 83.2
Pecci 82, incl. form 84 oh, seems to have been 99 yesterday after all, so 83.7

Absolutely no problem with loading, I always had 2 there, except a short time rather early, that's why Bradman had 3 energy more, brought it down to 1 by taking away one helper (resp. riding with 2 guys) shortly before the last pavé. Don't think Pulnikov can have had more than a 5 point advantage?
Just trying to explain: Laeser helped Poulnikov on the first three (?) ***** km. That could make a difference. Downhill skill might have helped on the -1*****. Small differences in energy for sure and in the end the time difference was small too. Just 2'' gained with the attack.
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Re: Tour des Pavés - afternoon edition

Post by Robyklebt » Sun Oct 30, 2022 3:40 am

Gained "just" 2 "against a stronger guy in tempo that most likely had more energy :D

I'm just completely puzzled by how this works, but that's c4f, sometimes just weird.
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