Afternoon Giro 2022, 15h

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Weezel
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Re: Afternoon Giro 2022, 15h

Post by Weezel » Sun May 15, 2022 8:15 pm

I really enjoyed todays win at this very steep mountain-stage. Now I know, that I missed to ride with a climber. Sprinting is also nice, but a climbers win - especially at a Grand Tour - is something special.
My tactic was clear: Bring always back as much helpers as possible, load Unai and then hope for more energy at the counter-attack after the logical attack in the end from Boaz. For me it was not safe, that he can't follow on the +6 in the end - so it was very close even with Pagie and Berg. Second stagewin is in the books, hopefully more to come.

For the GC there is no very big chance. Yesterday AAD got some seconds, today he lost some seconds. And we have the 17 km mostly flat TT in the end.
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Re: Afternoon Giro 2022, 15h

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Sun May 15, 2022 11:37 pm

Second restday, 9 stages over, time for a quick review of this so far not very successful Giro. 0 stage wins. Pagie lost 1'39'' already.

Sounds horrible and it is, but mostly the DS is to blame. Half the time he is in meetings and the other half he spends working on a new version. So roughly 20" lost for Pagie in TT because the DS did not give advice how to ride. Then 1' lost on Etna because the DS again did not give advice how to ride and another 20" lost on stage 7 when he gave advice that Pagie should help Vespa! Brilliant... Sunday Blockhaus was better. 2nd place for Pagie, so 7'' won over Boaz surprisingly... but even if Pagie wins 7" every stage from now, he'd still be behind in Verona. So we are under pressure to find a different tactic.

But of course, it's not only the DS... the riders played their role too... Pagie and Lootens with their "training" (I.e. no training) create little excitement in the team. Basically the leaders don't train but expect superstars like Vespa and Gagneux to ride for them. Team spirit very low at the moment. Of course that can change quickly. One stage win and probably they are all best friends... but currently, if we don't win a stage, Pagie and Lootens might not have a future in the team...

And then the opponents! Way too strong! FL, Falken, BM, TMA, all with excellent stage wins, some of them multiple excellent stage wins. Then AAD, he brought Boaz into the maglia rosa already. With a very strong team. Boaz has not been in any danger so far. Ok, beaten by Alvaro on Etna and beaten by Unai on Blockhaus. So not the super dominant Boaz so far. But without relevant time loss for him, so all under control.

Ok, anyway, Time to enjoy the restday. Hopefully the DS can come up with a new tactic for week 2 and 3!
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Re: Afternoon Giro 2022, 15h

Post by flockmastoR » Mon May 16, 2022 2:02 pm

Boaz in Maglia Rosa since stage 4. Thats the good news for A&D. The bad news is, that we are desperately searching our stage win which leads to some errors in riding. Yesterday pretty perfet race until the mountain top finish. But than the errors started. The most obvious error was the attack of Boaz on the +11 with Pagie in tempo. At that point, just let him ride, block the end and follow Unai on the final+6. He is the guy to watch out for after all. Berg and Pagie finally in between Unai and Boaz was the worst outcome. So losing 3s+10s boni. Errors made earlier in the stage by riding too early with Alo were not decisive.

Stage before was rather exhausting for the K&K Tempobolzer. Plan was to ride until km 37 and then let a group go (even if fearing some BD, Gip relay riders). Moja had plans to sieb my Austro-Hungarian duo, so it was pretty easy. Chasing and reacting is always easy, keep the distance of about 20-30s so an attack is not gooing too far until they reach the peloton. But attack was not coming and finally my guys came back. Afterwards it was Schötensack beeing siebed and chasing (with 40s), here an attack would probably made sense, but it was pretty close to the Lanciano and there was suspected to be tempo of at least one of my 69 classics. Still a big classic group there with a tempo bolzer to get to the mountain would have been a danger. On the foot of Lanciano Hinton joined tempo and finally Tschermak in for the steeper kms. Vogt also joined but obviously as a helper was not strong enough to sieb my 69 guys. Later on Lootens siebed all my classics and Tschermak was about 40s behind on top. Mobster riding for his guys carrying Heuser and Detreköi so decided to go for that group. If it was just me, would have waited for Tschermak, creating some chance to attack in front. But like this both Gip classics rode and Heuser, Liivik could bring the group close enough, so that an attack didn't look too promissing.

Gruppetto wasn't really watched for in the beginning. Was pointing at it way before the Lanciano but nobody really saw the need to do something. BD then took over there and also dropped riders for Gabel and Meucci. Schötensack also dropped after the Lanciano and brought my two guys to the finish with 36:32, so was not that close, but still nothing to gamble with.
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Re: Afternoon Giro 2022, 15h

Post by team fl » Mon May 16, 2022 2:24 pm

I really like this edition so far. Very active teams, lots of different outcomes and a general good vibe during the races. Anyway, statistics are emotionless (unless you want to analyse them thorougly and have an entitled opinion about them), here they are, deadpanly serious:

Standing after 9/21 Stages:
01. 00:00:00 Boaz Trakhtenbrot (Alive And Dead)
02. 00:00:21 Unai Agirrezabala (T-Mobile-A)
03. 00:00:28 Ivan Ardila (Big Donkey)
04. 00:00:51 Toni Berg (Team-Mojabahs)
05. 00:01:00 Alvaro Balanta (Falkenbier)
06. 00:01:07 Alo Taaramäe (Alive And Dead)
07. 00:01:26 Jonas Wunderlich (Team-Mojabahs)
08. 00:01:39 Pierre Pagie (Gipfelstuermer)
09. 00:01:57 Asier Basterretxea (Big Donkey)
10. 00:02:31 Luuk Lootens (Gipfelstuermer)

Maglia Ciclamino: Mika Antomäki (Bahrain-Merida)
Maglia Azzurra: Unai Agirrezabala (T-Mobile-A)
Maglia Bianca: Jonas Wunderlich (Team-Mojabahs)
Trofeo fast team: Team-Mojabahs

Days in Maglia Rosa
6 Boaz Trakthenbrot (Aliva And Dead)
2 Siim Liivik (T-Mobile-A)
1 Alvaro Balanta (Falkenbier)

Stage wins by riders:
2 Mika Antomäki (Bahrain-Merida)
2 Alvaro Balanta (Falkenbier)
2 Magnus Marxer (Team FL)
1 Siim Liivik (T-Mobile-A)
1 Thabani Mbule (Falkenbier)
1 Unai Agirrezabala (T-Mobile-A)

Stage wins by teams:
3 Falkenbier
2 Team FL
2 Bahrain-Merida
2 T-Mobile-A
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Re: Afternoon Giro 2022, 15h

Post by Robyklebt » Thu May 19, 2022 6:55 pm

Not much to report lately for the Donkeys.

Blockhaus, plan or more like original idea was something different, more what Pagie and Berg did finally, except the hope to get Unai back too and win, but ok, was unlikely anyway. So thought let's go early, Asier not el guapo, sind Asier is further away in GC, hoped that AAD keeps Alo out of tempo a bit longer, so I can build an advantage, no chance, he went in fast. So why not el guapo right after. Caught fast too, but both IMO were worth a try.

Jesi, Carpinteiro and Oyongo from Falkenbier try to go through, caught not too far from the goal. Actually the most fun stage almost so far? But since I didn't write something immediately I forgot most about it, but was fun.

Reggio Emilia, sprint, but without Mosca and his train really difficult to win, hoped he comes back, but didn't. Then sprint at 200 with Gabel, was simply hoping that FL speculates and waits till 150 with Büchel, second man in the train. But of course he didn't, he didn't need to speculate after all, go at 200 perfectly safe. Even 250. And then he can wait till 100 and wins, he went at 150, so of course Gabel too early, but it was a pre-setting it turned out, otherwise from 150 Gabel would have had chances again, like a few days ago when he was narrowly second.

Today group goes, seems clear goes through early, tried a second group, didn't find the takers I hoped for. Gipfel with Vespa once, but AAD wasn't going to let him go, rightly, 5' back, let him go you don't want to give him 10' in GC, so you chase at some point anyway. Better fast than wait and wait. Second group more followers but the ones with nobody in front without pullers, so rode a bit, but was a bit worried about creating anti-Asier/Ivan situations after a while, Gipfel then continued. No problem for my heros later, worked out fine enough for them finally. IN front Jussi wins, Bahrain not regretting his participation I guess.

Tomorrow normally an exciting hill sprinters vs sprinters fight, in reality I think will be a pretty safe sprint, here a cool fight. Except that Mobster will be off... ok, Mosca most likely too, so only fair... but without Mobster it risks becoming less exciting. Gabel of course is motivated, Carpinteiro and Short weakened enough so they can help carrying him up the mountain. But weakened so not that much help later...
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Re: Afternoon Giro 2022, 15h

Post by flockmastoR » Fri May 20, 2022 12:09 pm

Hm yesterday much action. Group with 2 Bahrain, 1 Falkenbier, 1 Gip attacking early. Good chances, Falke and Gip with the best classics in the back just Mojabahs with good classics/sprint values in the back but not really known to ride for stages in the classic "chase the group and win" style. To steep for Mobster to ride for Kjell. So was pretty sure noone will ride in the peloton. Than after a while Donkey attacks with one of his classics, Gip with Vespa and a puller following. Really wanted to go in controlling tempo just 2 kms later, bad I didn't earlier, would have cost me less power. So Gip with Fischer in the first group (87 flat) and Vespa in the second group riding tempo with a puller and a donkey puller. Didn't really like the situation. Feared a Gerbi attack too here and too many Gip riders where they could cause damage. So I decided to catch the group back and hope to have a rider in the follow up group. Catching back worked but had to do a lot of red tempo with Szabo and Simony. Better just green for 70-80km would have been ideal. Then Heuser on Gerbi, have at least a guy there if something happens. Than again way too much riding for my guys, but profil very hilly there and didn't really want Hintz and Kuntz attack before the steep kms. Even Alo did some green tempo to safe energy. With Heuser in front I thought I can better use him for bringing my 2 classics up the hill, worked pretty good, some sieb by Moja (his 79-70 not Vogt this time) and Gip trying with Pagie and Gerbi, all hanging there except for Ivan Ardila. Donkey there with Asier who already lost a lot on the first mountain top finish. Gip first rode but stopped later on, Gerbi and Heuser were the only non climbers in that group I think, Berg there, Unai there.

Thought it is a good chance to get rid of Ardila. Heuser would have helped, if Gip would have give some signs. As BD already stated, Unai is the main opponent right now, so I cannot risk riding with Heuser and end up in some kind of chained attack with weakened Gerbi, climbers with good flat skills, was a bit paranoid. So Gip also stopped without the attempt to convince me to ride together with him. Probably he didn't want to anyway.

Today no Mobster there, lets see if the sprinters believe in their chances and how many teams want to attack today.
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Re: Afternoon Giro 2022, 15h

Post by Robyklebt » Mon May 23, 2022 10:23 am

Rest day!
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Re: Afternoon Giro 2022, 15h

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Mon May 23, 2022 11:48 am

Giacomo Gerbi gains Giro glory for the Gipfelstuermers.

We had to wait for stage 13. San Remo to Cuneo. Flat stage, but with Colle di Nava 100km before the finish. Bahrain siebed the main sprinters from FL and Mosca. We helped a bit. But TMA not helping. Mysterious sitter and Skoglund not helped. Of course lots of complaints from those riding in the back... how can Gip do this??? He is pulling others to the win!!! Etc... Well, maybe they didn't see the +6 later on. Hill sprinters siebed. Then attack. Relatively big group of followers. 3 Bahrains. With Hautamäki controlling for Samuelsson. But on the last km, Gerbi attacks. Ritzinger following, but 50 vs. 45 sprint. Gerbi wins the sprint of the two. Italian win in Cuneo. Glory for Gerbi on this day.

After 12 stages, it was a big relief for the team! Honestly, afternoon is a great race. It is the real Giro. I am in a good mood most of the days. Responsible riding in Grupetto. No catastrophy if you are off/half-off some of the stages because people ride a fair race.... but of course, we needed the stage win to be happy!

So a stage win is here. Nice. Then again, there is still some disappointment in GC. Well, there wasn't much movement in GC in week 2. Really bad Giro design this year, I have to say. Not the C4F design, but the RCS Sport design... Ok, week 3 lots of mountains, as usual. But so far, we are completely missing back-to-back mountain stages. Therefore no big movements in GC. Pagie now at 1'43''. Given his performance so far, there is little hope... the most likely scenario is, no podium and no contract extension for him and his helper Lootens.


Standing after 15/21 Stages:
0:00 Boaz Trakhtenbrot (Alive And Dead)
+16" Unai Agirrezabala (T-Mobile-A)
+48" Toni Berg (Team-Mojabahs)
+54" Ivan Ardila (Big Donkey)
+1'19" Alvaro Balanta (Falkenbier)
+1'33" Alo Taaramäe (Alive And Dead)
+1'42" Jonas Wunderlich (Team-Mojabahs)
+1'43" Pierre Pagie (Gipfelstuermer)
+1'51" Asier Basterretxea (Big Donkey)
+2'58" Luuk Lootens (Gipfelstuermer)

Maglia Ciclamino: Magnus Marxer (Team FL)
Maglia Azzurra: Thomas Mayer (Team-Mojabahs)
Maglia Bianca: Jonas Wunderlich (Team-Mojabahs)
Trofeo fast team: Team-Mojabahs

Days in Maglia Rosa
12 Boaz Trakthenbrot (Aliva And Dead)
2 Siim Liivik (T-Mobile-A)
1 Alvaro Balanta (Falkenbier)

Stage wins by riders:
3 Magnus Marxer (Team FL)
2 Mika Antomäki (Bahrain-Merida)
2 Alvaro Balanta (Falkenbier)
2 Unai Agirrezabala (T-Mobile-A)
1 Thabani Mbule (Falkenbier)
1 Siim Liivik (T-Mobile-A)
1 Aaron Armleder (Team FL)
1 Jussi Hautamäki (Bahrain-Merida)
1 Giacomo Gerbi (Gipfelstuermer)
1 Asier Basterretxea (Big Donkey)

Stage wins by teams:
4 Team FL
3 Falkenbier
3 Bahrain-Merida
3 T-Mobile-A
1 Gipfelstuermer
1 Big Donkey
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Re: Afternoon Giro 2022, 15h

Post by flockmastoR » Mon May 23, 2022 4:01 pm

Last 2 stages were ok, GC wise no big loss, no win too. Stage 14 a hard sieb from Mojabahs ~80km from the start and going full pace for mountain points for Mayer. Just very strong classics could keep up the pace and a lot of climbers isolated for a long time. Unai without helper, Boaz with Alo on his side and T-Mobile-A and A&D riding in the back to somehow controll the gap. First it didn't look like the riders get close to the front but Moja didn't really try an attack from far or something similar. So the fresher classics ob T-Mobile and A&D could come back right before the last steep kms. At km 135 Boaz did sieb some exhausted climbers and also all of the classics and Alo was in to keep them distanced for a long time. The final +8 then tempo from leading climbers of different teams. Plan was wait for Alo, slowly beeing caughted and probably attacked by the classics and stay in the climbers group not losing seconds to one of them. But Asier attacked the moment of waiting for Alo and managed to save 6 seconds in front of the climbers group that was caught by the best classics at the very last km. Berg winning 4 seconds at the finish line, as he could finish 3rd and 2 seconds on the last IS, Boaz winning 3s at the last IS, Unai winning 2 there. All in all a good ending.

Stage 15 very hard stage. 2 really steep mountains before the last mountain started steep and had a (for climbers) hard pave km and a flattish finish. Here the stage were August Oetker was really missing. Somehow feared some of the climbers to try a long escape here, but looks like nobody really wanted to waste energy before the pave (well Ardilla and Berg did with early attacks on the last climb). Alo trying to keep away the classics early on the last climb was not as successfull as we hoped (Mayer was pretty strong). We really feared a hard classic sieb at the ** km (Gip, Falke, Moja). In the end Mayer was weakened enough, so that he couldn't sieb Boaz, but also weakened too much to catch back Unai who attacked on that km and won the stage with 2s left. He also got 3s at the last IS and for the stage win and reduced the gap to 18s. Nothing to worry about, but the melting of the gap is somehow still alarming.

If it continues like that Boaz is still on track for Rosa, even if it could happen that he loses the jersey before the final TT. Unai and Berg in the hunt. Unai already looks like the clear number 2 with changes, Berg with a bit more TT and the best team.
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Re: Afternoon Giro 2022, 15h

Post by Robyklebt » Tue May 24, 2022 6:25 am

Gipfelstuermer wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 11:48 am
Mysterious sitter and Skoglund not helped. Of course lots of complaints from those riding in the back... how can Gip do this???
And that's why I usually tried to avoid reading your "reports". Too often too much fantasy "facts" Hm did the mistake of restarting to read it seems. Stuff like this just puts me in a bad mood Lots of complaints? There was maybe one sentence questioning or commenting your tempo.
Information=good
Misinformation=bad

And while I agree that we could need some more controversy for a more exciting thread, controversies based on reality are vastly preferable!

You now already had way more complaints about this post than about your riding. 😂
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Re: Afternoon Giro 2022, 15h

Post by team fl » Tue May 24, 2022 8:32 am

Robyklebt wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 6:25 am
Gipfelstuermer wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 11:48 am
Mysterious sitter and Skoglund not helped. Of course lots of complaints from those riding in the back... how can Gip do this???
And that's why I usually tried to avoid reading your "reports". Too often too much fantasy "facts" Hm did the mistake of restarting to read it seems. Stuff like this just puts me in a bad mood Lots of complaints? There was maybe one sentence questioning or commenting your tempo.
Information=good
Misinformation=bad

And while I agree that we could need some more controversy for a more exciting thread, controversies based on reality are vastly preferable!

You now already had way more complaints about this post than about your riding. 😂
I would like to examin this complaint in detail to give some understanding about the process and as well as the results of it. I have no idea what I do this for, but it seems to be a good way to add to the discussion without having anything to say.

A complaint has to meet certain criteria to be seen as a complaint:

1. Identify the core issue(s): So far so good. As usual, Sherlock Donkey finds them with the precision of a surgeon. Sometimes like a drunk surgeon, but it is an impressive feat.

2. Ask yourself if it’s worth your time: Well, is it? I can't answer that question for the Donkey, but for me, I haven't even read Gipfelstuermer's post to that degree that I would have identified the core issue in the first place. Again, impressive feat, but time consuming. Anyway, the complaintor seems to be satisfied, so: check.

3. Determine the proper complaint filing procedure: And here is the point: There is non other than common courtesy. Does the Donkey meet it? Ehm... yes this time :).

4. Know what solution you want:I guess it's honesty, brutal honesty. Is it good? Mostly. Is it entertaining? Sometimes. Do we need it? Always.

5. Gather your supporting documents: My only complaint about the Donkey's complaint about Gipfelstuermer's complaint. He has no supporting documnents. Big fail I guess.

6. Keep records of everything: But be aware of data protection regulation in your area!

7. Keep a journal (optional): I have no idea if the Donkey keeps a journal or not. Maybe that would be valuable additional information?


You may add criteria if you want as this sounds way too much criteria to fullfil when you want to complain, esp. in C4F, esp. about people's behaviour. Just let it out and feel free. I hope you all learned something by now. Anyway, you're welcome :)
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Re: Afternoon Giro 2022, 15h

Post by Robyklebt » Tue May 24, 2022 12:39 pm

We have controversy!!!!

Honesty! Factuality! Not brutal! The brutality is in the eye of the beholder anyway.
The keyword "lots" for example for the Donkey here was full of unbearable brutality.

Perception yes, perception can differ. Here a "some criticism", bah ok, somehow still overdue importance to this one or 2 or possibly even 3??? comments by either the Donkey, the always complaining FL or even pessimistic AAD. But "lots"? That is some very strange perception! Brutal exxageration, brutal misinformation!!!! In my perception. One of the things that triggers the usally zen Donkey immediately. Others are misspelling fundamental cycling jargon or misrepresenting my opinion/assigning me one that isn't mine. All immediate triggers. In this case, not only did I feel an unresistable urge to post a correction, even on the mobile, but I also started yelling at people in the train!!! (That's intended as a humorous exxageration, which might be perceived differently)

Come on, as happy we all were not to see the usual annoying cereals with another win, there's no need to portray the tempo as some sort of widely criticized not understood action.

Documents, yes, I don't have documents, still have better things to do than copy the chat! I just use my brilliant memory. Since at times it's faulty maybe a journal would be nice. Write down "follow Gerbi!" (and "criticize the tempo before a lot!"), so that if I discover time travel I can the follow Gerbi (and we get unbrutally factual posts)

It's worth it anyway! Controversy and outrage are fundamental to a happy game and life!
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Re: Afternoon Giro 2022, 15h

Post by team fl » Tue May 24, 2022 1:48 pm

Robyklebt wrote:
Tue May 24, 2022 12:39 pm
It's worth it anyway! Controversy and outrage are fundamental to a happy game and life!
I agree! Beeing too agreeable makes unhappy! Wait, what?... Ehm, I mean I disagree! Controversy and ability to give and receive criticis are fundamental for a happiness and constructive development. Sometimes, outrage may be the means of communication (or transportation of the message) it needs, but it depends on the context, as usual.

Anyway, I think we need a statement from Gipfelstuermer about this. Silence is not the solution in this case (certainly not the entertaining solution...). And if outrage leads to the end of silence (= more entertainment), it is the thing we need!
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Re: Afternoon Giro 2022, 15h

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Tue May 24, 2022 2:11 pm

Ha, we don't need race reports. We've all seen the race. And if not, in Flash, there is even a replay. So why race report? Better write about perceptions, impressions, opinions,.... that's what we need... maybe even complaints!

So I keep complaining: Why this mountain stage today? And then boring ITT and flat stage on the long weekend, when I have time? Bad planning by RCS Sport.
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Re: Afternoon Giro 2022, 15h

Post by Robyklebt » Tue May 24, 2022 3:13 pm

Because the race report doesn't show everything?

And perceptions as long as they are within certain parameters, of course. But once they seem out there....


Like: Donkey won a stage. After controlling the whole stage, being in control of everything, he did the expected attack which nobody dared to follow and won. Hm, can work, but the Donkey's perception seems so off in this case, that really.. .well, brrr, I just triggered myself!!!!


But what I came here for this time:

Like the GC fight in this Giro. It's much more open than the past years. Last year was clear, only 1 guy with outside chances (who then mysteriously was gifted the win) 2 years ago similar, Neumann with only one team being able to pose a challenge, 3 years ago the same with Zafzaf. This year.. .yes, Boaz is the favorite. Unai the challenger. But the difference is much smaller between these 2 than it was in the past years. So that opens up bigger outsider chances for Berg, Basterretxea/Ardila and Pagie. So far they haven't been able to use that, maybe they will in the coming stages? Of course very possible that they do another Etna, meaning let Boaz and Unai get even further away. And right now Boaz probably is still not under enough pressure from Unai, but if Unai keeps getting some time regularly, at some point the pressure might be enough so that Boaz almost has to concentrate exclusively on him.

Of coure Boaz is still the rather clear favorite, but Unai waiting, then Berg not too far, Ardila... Pagie and Basterretxea close to 2', but that might allow them some freedom? Come back within a minute? Or more? Who knows. With the ITT in hand Boaz can allow those 2 some time, of course still better not to give it...
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Re: Afternoon Giro 2022, 15h

Post by flockmastoR » Wed May 25, 2022 5:46 pm

Back to back Mountain stages, Boaz still in Rosa!

Some words about the last 2 days, that were a bit busy for the A&D manager:

Yesterday the king stage? Hardest stage probably and lots of action. Just app from the start, could ask kaju to look at the race early, as my work was causing problems and I couldn't be on time. The app check was not done in a manner to really give advice for the sitter and 2 donkeys attacking early. Kaju than went in with the classics already. Situation not brilliant for the team. Carpinteiro back was ordered back after first mountain, Huizinga still in front ~6:30mins before the 2nd mountain started, got pulled there by Bahrain riders going for stage/mountain points. Don't know the gap exactly there but I think Boaz was 2:40 back of Ardilla who virtually wore rosa at that time, or was it 3:40 to Ardilla? (but was just the helper). Heuser was riding until than and was pretty wasted already, Detreköi took over some +3, +4 kms and than the Mortirolo. Plan was not that hard, Detreköi + Tschermak until the Valicio di Santa, than Alo, and the final mountain ridden by Boaz and looking what the attack is worth. But the Mortirolo was ridden a bit slowly (what I remember). I thought Donkey drops the Mojas and takes over with Huizinga on the top. But he wanted to cooperate with Moja, which was probably the better idea. In the downhill part I slowed down Detreköi, was getting time to early and with the stepp finish, didn't want to give Berg or Unai the chance for bigger gaps due to bonifications. Ritzinger at some point (way too late) got in tempo and I put Tschermak out who was riding green at that time. Thought Mobster is trying for stage win, because Boaz needs to ride the last mountain to avoid beeing attacked and losing too much. But Ritzinger than quit tempo in the steepest part of the Valico di Santa. An attack there would have totally won, because 1) Boaz didn't hang on anybody at that moment, 2) stupid A&D manager thought it is already 60s/km (flash display bug because of looking at different profiles). So a totally controlled situation (both regarding stage win from peloton and GC) looked horrible by losing about 2 mins there. Alo taking over and controlling until Boaz did some early kms at the last climb before going all in and hope to stay in Rosa. Worked out well and Unai lost his power advantage by an early escape on the last mountain. Caught back and stupid manager didn't just hang on him in the flat, losing 1s to him.

Today hard beginning with deadish team and kaju as a sitter to control the group (great job). The expected hard sieb from Moja and a fight to get riders back/don't lose riders. In the end a good attack by Pagie and luckily noone closer in GC hanging. Boaz did a great job saving his leader position and Unai today had big helper issues which made him not as dangerous as I thought on a stage like this, with the flat ending. Losing 4s due to boni to Unai, 8s to Berg, and 35s to Pagie, winning back time from Asier. All pretty close right now, Boaz still in Rosa and the TT on the last stage, but still 2 stages were he can be attacked.
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Re: Afternoon Giro 2022, 15h

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Thu May 26, 2022 12:31 am

So who is this Kaju? Sounds familiar but for now he's just a great copy of AAD. Controlling the race. Defending maglia rosa. Respect.

That were the facts. Now my impression from the race (just personal opinion!)

So today, from km1 hard sieb from Moja, behind a group with lots of TMA riders, then a group with 5 Gipfelstuermers, then the grupetto. We weren't able to come back with our guys. First, Moja's team too strong (no surprise he will win the trofeo fast) and when the TMA group caught the Moja group, we were very close to the cat 3 Giovo climb already so didn't want to push further. Fischer and Faye tried an attack to come back but Bahrain and AAD reacted to that.

Instead, we went on the offensive and sent Lootens to lead the peloton over the Giovo, preparing an attack of Vespa and Abbiati. When the attack happened, Drinkwater followed. But Kaju controlled and Detrekoi did a good job chasing. The group didn't get more than 1'30" and Moja closed the gap on the Valico del Vetriolo with Thomas Mayer to collect more KOM points. But as Mayer attacked, Abbiati survived the cat 1 mountain and was able to help Pagie on the downhill. Then they attacked together before the valley. A typical Pagie... 1" behind Abbiati after the attack... really clever... Nevertheless, the attack worked. Gained 50" in the valley before the final Monterevero climb and defended 23" of them until the finish line against Boaz and Asier chasing. Good control from them, as they both hope to win the maglia rosa in the end.

Nice stage win for Pagie. His first stage win in this tour after coming so close so often before. He was 2nd on stage 1 in Visegrad, he was 2nd on the Blockhaus stage and he was also 2nd on the Cogne stage... we almost stopped believing in him... but now he delivered! What does it mean for GC? 5th place now, 1'07" behind maglia rosa wearing Boaz.
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Re: Afternoon Giro 2022, 15h

Post by Robyklebt » Fri May 27, 2022 10:37 am

Last 3 days, GC tight, but Boaz and AAD in control. The 3 riders within a minute of him all need a big time gain, Pagie a bit further back even more.

Basterretxea back in the fight, but was never fully out. Came tairly close to even getting rosa. Fairly, not very.
Long range attack, then deal with Moja, Mayer stage, Basterretxea happy with time gain. A bit late the deal, before and Moja could have contributed more. But in the back AAD had some reserves too, so probably no big change. No deal, then going red and alone for Basterretxea faster, then rosa and stage, but stupid. Exhausted Basterretxea in rosa doesn't help me. Probably left a few seconds on the last km of the Santa Catarina, but afraid of dropping Mayer, he might have been fighting? Green safer, blue faster, but if he drops then waiting costs lot, no downhill that Mayer

Lavarone here big big big danger for AAD.
Early Moja. Then when Mobster caught the first peloton, soon the Donkey tried, wanted to try with Basterretxea at km +/-80, that climb there, again. But Gipfel other plans. I would have thought jumping in my ship, meaning following Charles would have made sense, but not there then sieb. Tried to anticipate after, Charles following. But nothing great happening. Second last climb all classics dropped, Bahrain and Abbiati ride, Charles happy to be a passenger. And there mistake by AAD, Taramäe green. So the classics let back. Attack Abbiati and Pagie. Charles still following (and almost destroyed it, went in tempo with Pagie behind, somehow wasn't thinking? Kind of saw Pagie but ok, let's ride again, even if it doesn't matter, but fortunately realized that that clearly wasn't the plan fast enough and out again... brrr, still have cold sweats thinking about it even if nothing happened) Pagie rides up, with Abbiati then 50"? when the climb starts. And there the danger was huge for AAD. If the Donkey or Moja think properly and hang there...possibly Boaz hangs, then ok, (not on Asier anymore, Donkey had tried earlier, probably when Charles followed the classic Gipfs the first time, everybody there, grr. If not, rosa most likely gone, temporarily at least. But neither Berg nor Basterretxea followed the obvious (in retrospect) attack. So Pagie stage, in the back unfit Asier with safety tempo together with Boaz (chasing for him) was then dropped in the flatter part, probably was fighting all the way up as well? Didn't check.

Still ok for me, but the missed chance hurts a bit. Should see stuff like that. Then follow or not follow both works, not follow good for having Pagie back in and as ally, if he's out no need to cooperate. But in this case I simply didn't see it . Grrr.

Yesterday sprint,easy and I even worked a bit for it too. FL offline sprint, Donkey had planned his own train anyway. Only Merlier 69 in the wheel. FL with settings. Donks not going. Wasn't fairness, just mentioned that even winning in a off sprint wouldn't be that great, but was of course going to exploit FLs offline without mercy. I just was too stupid. Instead of going at 300 or 250, was afraid of Merlier. What if he has form... ? Gabel 86, he 100? 82-71, he follows wins! Idiot. He had sprinted before, so when the Donkey told Gabel to go it was too late and Merlier couldn't follow as those that paid attention knew before. Nice way to waste a chance, but since I plan to win rosa, I'll survive it.

So, last 3 days, let's see if another opportunity presents itself, while AAD is in control I think we're doing a decent job of keeping him occupied. Moja with siebs, Mobster with the Klettentactic, Donks and Gipfel with attacks. Let's see if something opens up. And if, use it this time.
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Re: Afternoon Giro 2022, 15h

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Fri May 27, 2022 2:51 pm

Standings after 18/21 Stages:
0:00 Boaz Trakhtenbrot (Alive And Dead)
+9" Unai Agirrezabala (T-Mobile-A)
+28" Asier Basterretxea (Big Donkey)
+30" Toni Berg (Team-Mojabahs)
+1'04" Pierre Pagie (Gipfelstuermer)
+3'56" Jonas Wunderlich (Team-Mojabahs)
+6'28" Thomas Mayer (Team-Mojabahs)
+19'03'' Luuk Lootens (Gipfelstuermer)
+20'23'' Aldo Abbiati (Gipfelstuermer)
+23'20" Aaron Armleder (Team FL)

Maglia Ciclamino: Magnus Marxer (Team FL)
Maglia Azzurra: Thomas Mayer (Team-Mojabahs)
Maglia Bianca: Jonas Wunderlich (Team-Mojabahs)
Trofeo fast team: Team-Mojabahs

Days in Maglia Rosa
15 Boaz Trakthenbrot (Aliva And Dead)
2 Siim Liivik (T-Mobile-A)
1 Alvaro Balanta (Falkenbier)

Stage wins by riders:
4 Magnus Marxer (Team FL)
2 Mika Antomäki (Bahrain-Merida)
2 Alvaro Balanta (Falkenbier)
2 Unai Agirrezabala (T-Mobile-A)
1 Thabani Mbule (Falkenbier)
1 Siim Liivik (T-Mobile-A)
1 Aaron Armleder (Team FL)
1 Jussi Hautamäki (Bahrain-Merida)
1 Giacomo Gerbi (Gipfelstuermer)
1 Asier Basterretxea (Big Donkey)
1 Thomas Mayer (Team-Mojabahs)
1 Pierre Pagie (Gipfelstuermer)

Stage wins by teams:
5 Team FL
3 Falkenbier
3 Bahrain-Merida
3 T-Mobile-A
2 Gipfelstuermer
1 Big Donkey
1 Team-Mojabahs
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Re: Afternoon Giro 2022, 15h

Post by flockmastoR » Fri May 27, 2022 7:05 pm

Stage 19 declared as medium mountain stage. But has a very big mountain close to the finish, followed by some downhill, flat and a not too steep finish. Was unsure about tactics from the start. If someone attacks its here, in the finish no time gain possible (at least no significant). Again a group formed by Bahrain-Merida riders and followers. Hoped for the 4 guys group with Outschakov as only annoying rider, but Bahrain with another 2 riders and another Gipfelstuermer rider (Gerbi) and a Donkey (Carpinteiro). Decided to catch them back until the first steep kms, use Szabo and Simony for this and if necessary Schötensack. The first 2 are gone anyway at the first sieb, the latter one had to be used to finally catch the group but could stay in front at the first Moja sieb. Afterwards it was riding in the gruppetto and find the right place to go in tempo before attacks start.

KM 89 Moja attacked with Noll and Richter, went in with Hinton in red tempo and they didn't get too much (~9s). Looked weakish to me (ok was green). Then Mobster went in with Kohl keeping them close, Lootens then siebing on the last steep km, dropping Heuser and also all weakish classics of Mobster except for Gottwald, AAD with Boaz, Alo, Detreköi and Tschermak in front, looked ok to me, riding with Mobster to catch up later (Mobster first didn't ride, than didn't go in with Siim in the downhill, then siebing Heuser to get back on the 7, how dare he). So Heuser alone ~10s behind the peloton riding the downhill and than waiting for the Bahrain group, the slight downhill part before the Kolovrat didn't look too inviting for attacking. Plan than was easy, ride uphill with Detreköi, if the better classics attack decide if I go in with Alo to get them, sieb over them and than just ride with my weaker classics behind the stronger classics in the donwhill part. Probably come close enough so that an attack doesn't look too good. Something like that but as I always study the next hard stage during making plans, I had the flash km bug that showed the min tact km wrong and I missed to put in Detreköi on the first +11. So Wunderlich and Schröder attacking green with Lootens/Vespa/Abiati/Hincapi hanging there. During the race didn't even get, that the Mojas did the attack. Winning 1:26 in a green attack and Berg/Pagie in the back waiting to attack/sieb. In fact Alo was just starting with 900 energy today and I felt attackable even without doing stupid no tempo +11kms. Like that I panicked and put Boaz following Pagie. He attacks blue and Boaz + Unai on hin, he attacked two more times, Unai decided to unfollow after the second, Boaz didn't follow after the 3rd (but no 4th attack coming). Still think that going full speed from the time of the attack, Pagie would have had the chance to get into Rosa + gaining some more time to be really dangerous. Did already write some chat messages to offer a deal, but felt like no deal is really worth a try. Stage for Gip also possible and successfull the way he did it, even if I thought the classics won't make it. The crying of Mobster in the chat would actually be worth trying to propose a deal. In fact the moment Gip attacked with the classics Mobster already started
T-Mobile-A: dreimal attackiert Gipfel und dann nimmt er Gelb mit nach vorne - pah!
So 3 super classics in front, Moja riding after for the stage. In fact at this moment I realised that I didn't give away the GC. Hoped but never believed in the the classics winning the stage, they did saving 16s and the big bonification. In the peloton very unfit Alo started the first kms, than even unfitter Boaz took over, Berg and Asier attacking 2 km to the goal getting 5s, Asier getting the last 4 bonusseconds. Unai helping on the last km instead of attacking. All fine for Boaz so far.

Alo fit again tomorrow, as the classics. Lets see that the last mountain stage offers.
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Re: Afternoon Giro 2022, 15h

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Fri May 27, 2022 7:54 pm

Exciting stage through Slovenia today, including the Kolovrat - they call it the Slovenian Mortirolo. Our plan was to join the escape, but there was no escape initially... then Bahrain started an escape and we had the right guys following. Gerbi and Outschakov. Big Donkey and FL there as well, but without puller, so AAD was able to catch the escape. Then Moja started controlling the race. Not sure for what: Distancing the 2 AAD helpers? Not a big advantage normally. Control for trofeo fast team? Seems secure anyway. For maglia bianca? Seems secure, too. For maglia azzura? Less secure, but then he even let Jussi sprint and did not ride with Mayer for it. So was it for a Berg stage win? Possible, but unlikely against Boaz and Unai. So maybe he prepared an attack? Many theoretical reasons, but in practice I did not really understand the tempo, so decided to up the pace with Luuk, to drop some AAD and TMA helper, try to weaken the strongest mountain riders. Sieb worked, but then it was just Moja tempo again.

Indeed he prepared a nice attack, with Wunderlich and Schröder going on the Kolovrat and we followed with Lootens, Vespa and Abbiati. Then attacked with Pagie. But Boaz and Unai following... so attack again... and again... Boaz stayed in the wheel, Unai didn't... risky move but seems right decision as he was able to kill the attack by doing so. Moja, TMA and Big Donkey started chasing. Thoughts from AAD:
flockmastoR wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 7:05 pm
Still think that going full speed from the time of the attack, Pagie would have had the chance to get into Rosa + gaining some more time to be really dangerous. Did already write some chat messages to offer a deal, but felt like no deal is really worth a try. Stage for Gip also possible and successfull the way he did it, even if I thought the classics won't make it.
To be honest, I did not even think about a deal, because I had no hope to achieve anything in this constellation. Boaz and Unai did not want to ride and while Vespa/Abbiati is a great Italian duo, with less than a minute advantage riding vs. Drinkwater/Gottwald/Schröder/Mayer seemed hopeless... saw no chance of achieving something here. Therefore, decided to go with Vespa/Abbiati to try for the stage. Hincapie following was good. 3 classics against the peloton, in which GC teams would normally have no reason to chase. Moja kept chasing with Schröder/Mayer/Wunderlich all the way to the final climb. But Abbiati and Hincapie were stronger, with Abbiati winning the sprint. Now we know why he trained to 74-81 on his last training as a 32-year-old! To win a Giro stage! After Gerbi's stage win, it is our second Italian win this Giro. Bravo! In the end, the race situation was perfect for AAD as he did not have to control. So looking at the replay, perfect move from Boaz to follow Pierre. He did not lose any time in GC, he kept the maglia rosa and he weakened his opponents, who should have their riders under reg. At least I have. But Pagie might not count as an opponent anymore at 1'04''. Would need another two miracles tomorrow and Sunday.

Standings after 19/21 Stages:
0:00 Boaz Trakhtenbrot (Alive And Dead)
+9" Unai Agirrezabala (T-Mobile-A)
+19" Asier Basterretxea (Big Donkey)
+25" Toni Berg (Team-Mojabahs)
+1'04" Pierre Pagie (Gipfelstuermer)
+4'07" Jonas Wunderlich (Team-Mojabahs)
+7'52" Thomas Mayer (Team-Mojabahs)
+19'50'' Aldo Abbiati (Gipfelstuermer)
+20'27'' Luuk Lootens (Gipfelstuermer)
+23'43" Alvaro Balanta (Falkenbier)

Maglia Ciclamino: Magnus Marxer (Team FL)
Maglia Azzurra: Thomas Mayer (Team-Mojabahs)
Maglia Bianca: Jonas Wunderlich (Team-Mojabahs)
Trofeo fast team: Team-Mojabahs

Days in Maglia Rosa
16 Boaz Trakthenbrot (Aliva And Dead)
2 Siim Liivik (T-Mobile-A)
1 Alvaro Balanta (Falkenbier)

Stage wins by riders:
4 Magnus Marxer (Team FL)
2 Mika Antomäki (Bahrain-Merida)
2 Alvaro Balanta (Falkenbier)
2 Unai Agirrezabala (T-Mobile-A)
1 Thabani Mbule (Falkenbier)
1 Siim Liivik (T-Mobile-A)
1 Aaron Armleder (Team FL)
1 Jussi Hautamäki (Bahrain-Merida)
1 Giacomo Gerbi (Gipfelstuermer)
1 Asier Basterretxea (Big Donkey)
1 Thomas Mayer (Team-Mojabahs)
1 Pierre Pagie (Gipfelstuermer)
1 Aldo Abbiati (Gipfelstuermer)

Stage wins by teams:
5 Team FL
3 Falkenbier
3 Bahrain-Merida
3 T-Mobile-A
3 Gipfelstuermer
1 Big Donkey
1 Team-Mojabahs
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Re: Afternoon Giro 2022, 15h

Post by flockmastoR » Fri May 27, 2022 8:05 pm

Gipfelstuermer wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 7:54 pm
To be honest, I did not even think about a deal, because I had no hope to achieve anything in this constellation.
In fact, I had nothing to offer, that's why it felt ridiculous to write something in the chat. Going full speed with Boaz and let Pagie the stage. But like you said, you killing your riders to secure my Rosa finally against a win you could get anyways and probably a podium for Pagie? Still worth a try, but would understand everybody behind who would have complained about it.
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Re: Afternoon Giro 2022, 15h

Post by flockmastoR » Sat May 28, 2022 7:15 pm

Well then, Boaz still in Rosa, situation as I hoped it to be, but didn't expect. Todays stage very hard again. Boaz, Alo, Detreköi and Tschermak fit, Tschermak with topform yesterday, Heuser close to 900. Hinton close to 1000. Rest of the team rather dead. Decided to go green all the way until the siebs first,attacks by Gip, some guys hanging, also Simony for reasons I didn't understand (couldn't save him). Then the first +9, Moja siebing my dead guys + Hinton and continuing until the Passo San Pellegrino. Heuser than in tempo, Moja wanted to wait for his siebed guys first, though he already starts his Vogt/Mayer siebs there. Wanted to wait for the siebs, than sieb with Alo and block the Pellegrino that way, continue with Detreköi/Tschermak and catch up to the front after the Passo Pordoi (or at least chase the obvious attacks there). Surprisingly, no attacks at the Pellegrino (expected at least Mayer+Schröder or Wunderlich, ok Donkey classics not good enough for an attack here probably). Detreköi could ride and catch the group before the Passo Pordoi (got help from Ritzinger). Than on the Passo Pordoi had to go in tempo with Tschermak to avoid attacks, probably just put Alo in green there more clever, need Tschermak at least until km 143, but siebs started soon, so had to continue with Tschermak and in the back with dead Detreköi. Some blocking kms by Alo (Helper of the Giro) but noone even trying. Chasing the Mojas and catching them in the downhill, rolling to let Detreköi back. At that point GC seemed pretty save, let some stage hunters go for it at 143, ride the mountain with Alo and the last steep kms with Boaz. In the end, just 5 s missing for the stage win, but ok like that, Berg and Asier where going for it, Unai could have easily win time on both of them today, just ride together with Boaz and see who is stronger on the last km.

So 20 stages done, never going for GC at a GT before, had some years riding some of the GT, even once with 2 climbers but never with a rider as a favo (usually riding with a 86climber in a field full of 89s). With the constellation here it was hard to not ride a boring strategy like "Trying to get in Rosa early and just defend". But with JUST Unai as a second 87 (clear tactic, just profit from Boaz defending Rosa and get stages + seconds) it was hard to ride differently, Berg with TT and best team support but usually not the guy going from far kind of blocked many possible early trys, Donkey with 2 climbers and known for trying from far did it once but could be controlled, his classics not good enough to initiate something from the pelOton and also blocked race there with Vogt always siebing and me always riding with my riders behind. Gip with the classics but with early loss of big time. FL as sprint hero and gruppetto god and Bahrain also made it a very nice Giro. Falke very successfull the time he was on and Mosca unfortunately had not enough time to finish the tour.
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Re: Afternoon Giro 2022, 15h

Post by Robyklebt » Sat May 28, 2022 9:29 pm

The day to try IMO was yesterday for GC, to put your guys under reg, and then try again today... but yes, don't have the classics, and somehow they often weren't fit, today both not at 1000 either I think. But pretty fit.

Today at least didn't do the same mistake as yesterday, go early, Alo is slow and unfit. Should have done that yesterday too really. But was afraid of Berg, ok, he now hangs on me, which doesn't bother me if he then rides (today he should have attacked me at the end though, why carry up the weaker guy???) Anyway, yesterday with the flatter km after the first attack kms, thought if Berg stays back, and rides, strongest climber with me (and Unai I thought, thought just one following... but ok, if he was on me, yesterday should have gone early. So today was clear where I go. But today then lost the sprint vs Berg, bah. Helping pretty sure, wasn't always here, went to visit my wife in another room regularly looking for pity complaining about my mysteriously hurting shoulder. That's why I'm up again 3 hours after going to bed... can't sleep, hurts. So late helper changing after the San Pellegrino etc.

Didn't do a great race, one try, worked pretty well, but also because losing time early Boaz had a margin... all he wanted was keeping rosa I think, so let me go there. Had I been closer, he probably would have closed me down, not 100% sure though, Heuser was already dead, kill a second one with another mountain stage coming not ideal, but yeah, my one attack was ok. But didn't ride a bad race either, after all I'm 9" down in second place with the 4th/5th best rider.... Berg with more TT, Pagie same level more flat more sprint both at 85 as well, Unai and Boaz 87, so of course didn't do a bad race either. But never managed to threaten really, get same time, get it back, hang around. Today... if anything hoped to go with Ardila early.. or double attack, depending on how things were, a Donkey away, ok. But no Donkey anywhere I think, early group neither, forgot, Short with good form was planned for better things today, but was likely that it was going to be difficult, today AAD could kill his team completely.
1 stage, somehow, the one that hurts is still the first TT, downtraining a few days before, argh. Gabel came close twice, once with Mosca there, once he missed thanks to Donkey stupidity. Then Basterretxea didn't go for stage but GC time, that is still ok, Today helping I think, tempo too maybe?`But yesterday more annoying, should have gone early... then maybe I could get rosa for a day or 2.

Boaz, hm, thought that today maybe he would try to attack Unai, for stage, but ok, that was gone after all. And he won the sprint with just riding as well. So ok. But today finally AAD and Mobster communicated, often somehow they don't, that's what the chat is for! It's not just for the Donkey to write interesting stuff, and spam it, but to talk about what to do. See Donks and the usually silent Moja on the Mayerstage, was doubtful that would work, but did, stage for you, ride together? While AAD and Mobster often ended up saying after the stage, we could have done it like this together...

Thanks for FL for the Gruppetto today, but ok, I worked for it overall too, especially one day when that annoying FL was off with a part time sitter.. today much less.....

Tomorrow... Siim vs Boaz? Hm, Charles wants to have a say too, at least he wants to beat Siim. Not sure if he is fit though, probably not, didn't do anything today, but helping.... so might start at 970 or so 950 again... argh. Took out the fighting, but forgot to check at the end... we'll see tomorrow. Form though should be similar for all 3?
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Re: Afternoon Giro 2022, 15h

Post by Weezel » Sun May 29, 2022 8:43 am

In the meantime I'm also in opinion, that I should have cooperated with AAD to secure Unais podium in GC. Was greedy and hoped for stage win and podium, but obviously AAD had no reason to ride earlier. So in the end I made some mistakes, second place overall would have been possible. Also with my lack of strong helpers. Let's learn from this Giro for the future
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