Tour de Suisse 15h

[superemre]

ok, 580 races, 52 stage and 9tour, and you do not see a team that is off by 102km!, You're a lucky guy
GW

[sylvainmeteo]

ok, 580 races, 52 stage and 9tour, and you do not see a team that is off by 102km!, You're a lucky guy
GW

Yes very lucky... I don't know how I could not see it... but well Heidfeld action was really bad...

Tomorrow, the most expected stage, the Time Trial, Stoffel should win it, I have to be careful with the reg

[Robyklebt]

That's SM Austis... he doesn't have the spirit of Fordongianus! He is so concentrated on earning money that often he looks at the finance page and not the race during a race. Then of course things like these happen.

But seriously, happens.. happened to me too, not checking the offline thing that closesly. ONly difference is that my offliners then usually don't attack and give me the win.
Otherwise not much happening yesterday finally. For once Alighieri had the right wheel to follow, not at the end, but 4th, top yeah! 4 stages he could theoretically win, ok, one too hard was clear after looking at it closer, 3 others possible, best a 4th place... not brilliant really. But at least Todea consistently wins time in his quest for a top 15 gc

[sylvainmeteo]

Chicot wins TT, Stoffel in gap/energy control
everyone is ok for tomorrow except a bit Stoffel, I'm ready!

[Robyklebt]

Interesting finish...

Lots of talk by Heid... mostly wanted stuff that didn't help anybody, neither the guy he wanted in tempo, nor himself... highly impressing actually. Like Gassmann should help the ile helper..how does that help anybody? Was clear that the classic group comes back. Better to save the 2 mountain helpers and wait for the classic group, THEN ride...helps all.. More than riding there in a climbers group that will be caught back by Heidfeld....

But ok, the start.. .no group allowed to go far as kind of expected, but still tried... Heidfeld controls..then attacked.. but IMO a bit too late, one or 2 km before the * pavé. Was so clear that there SM would give all to drop Chicot... so 25" or less seconds into the hill... in the end the attack was for not much and all ended up where they would have anyway I think... a bit earlier maybe better... SM the dreamer mostly saw Chicot today, Plus let him chase a bit too... but ok, was worth a try... missed the second wheel, grr. Chicot siebed and out... not surprising.
Then the first part, sieb, climbers group in front with the Ile nr 2 riding, classic group behind, then the Stoffelgroup... Group one then was caught by the classics as expected... but without GAssmann and Soneau who had fallen back.. and then Heid attacked with his classics from that group... ok, that got Samurai out of tempo in the back, but Wizard in, so slowed it down a bit in the back, but in front more, since Mantheou and Tychonoff then missed the energy. And of course Todea couldn't follow, grrr, even though he expected it... grrr. IMO counter productive attack.. even if Wiz doesn't go in tempo there in the back.. losing the attack energy just doesn't help. At all. Plus the "trust" issue... you want people to collaborate with words, but attack them 2' later with actions, then another 2' later you ask them to make tempo again.. Gassmann and Soneau couldn't really bother Guttenberg to much, GC against Soneau... ok, but if you want to win or do the podium you usually can't eliminate everybody a the same time. Poor Todea even less dangerous, wää. The tempo issue with Samu, ok, but the energy loss.. not worth it IMO, but ok.

The much bigger mistake though by Mr Money... SM... Parkola stayed in front FOREVER. Put him back for km 131 at the latest. Maybe even for the 2 6 before, Stoffel should stay there 4 6 6 5 3 5.. ride it with Martin dammit. Ok, Stoffel not fit, so the 6 maybe not, but the rest? Lots and lots of seconds lost there.. for nothing really, since he finally realized that riding for some money with Parko maybe wasn't the thing to do today... so he let him back, big help on a 4... that's all he got out of him in the end. Instead of weakening him on the 4 (6 6) 5 3 5 which might have made the last climb faster too... IMO big risk, for nothing, which cost quite a lot today...

yellow still open, tomorrow a lot can happen or nothing can happen...
green excellent for Kashanov, mmmh, no Soneau closer.. thought less points for his 9th or something place... will be Soneau I think.
Mountain will be Cueto or Guttenberg if either wants it.
white Gassmann
Team Tutti

And Todea looks good for his top 15

[TheDreamTeam]

Ahaha, too funny your race !

Tutti rode for Ile Racing / SM wait Martin in a first time and doesn't wait him in a second time

It was Crazyyyyyyyyyyyyy !!

[superemre]

OK... very nice fight AUSTIS VS SM....but ILLE without a team, he has able to beat us, he was lucky and underestimated....
btw nice funny race....it's a game, and as in real life, sometimes good, sometimes it's bad, it is important to stay calm and do our best.

thx all,

[sylvainmeteo]

OK... very nice fight AUSTIS VS SM....but ILLE without a team, he has able to beat us, he was lucky and underestimated....
btw nice funny race....it's a game, and as in real life, sometimes good, sometimes it's bad, it is important to stay calm and do our best.

thx all,

Don't worry i try to stay calm, but if I see TUTTI next time.. that will be the war
If he will do TDF, that will be a mess...

[Robyklebt]

Last stage yesterday, tired ape too tired, now as well, but ok...before going to bed, a short superb analysis of yesterday

Very interesting stage, with what seemed 90% of the guys there unhappy.

1. Petit Singe. He is the only one that was right to be unhappy. Heavy rain, after surving all the mountains (with at least one km fighting too many...)and the downhills, on the last dangerous km dropped.. BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH. And it wasn't even raining in Switzerland. Grrr.
2. Bouletten: He wanted red... Tutti wanted it too. Tutti had the better team, used it and got it. A "thief" according to Bouletten... pff... well, show us where it's written that you have an automatic right to win the mountains jersey? Cueto was better. Over.
2b) Bouletten with Austis... Austis riding for Tutti. No he wasn't... A sieb, not sure if by Austis or somebody else... SM only 4 in front, he rides against HIM. And Ile who had only 2 in front. Ile was offline, so very likely he had 0 helps on both guys. Yes, maybe he put in help for Monte Christo (stupid name) with the other 85 from the start, since it was likely that he would lose the rest fairly early... nr 2 seemed weak anyway later on. But Austis there not only did something that was 100% right, but also VERY easily understandeable. If somebody gets angry about that, it means that somebody, Bouletten in this case, simply hasn't understood RSF. By forcing SM to either use one or 2 of the important guys as helpers, or have the 4 important guys all without helper... .he weakens him IMMENSELY. And, increases his chances for the win. Yes, Ile was ahead... but he was weakening him too.
3 Cosa Nostra: I think he didn't like that no escape was given time... but why, there is no guarantee for time for an escape... First TUTTI wanted red, his right, then Austis did his action, his right too. Neither did anything wrong.
4. SM: Unhappy about Austis and his action to keep him and Ile away... he was complaining.... too early, I would have done the sieb against Ile later, don't worry.... now you are riding for Ile.. Bullshit... as the day before you were dreaming. The day before you didn't realize that the danger didn't only come from Chicot. And let Parkola in front WAY to long, hoping to get money with him undoubtedly. And the french spammers (incl. the ape) had even TOLD you that the danger wasn't only Chicot in the chat... but no, you know it better and were way to cocky... Same here... Ile nr 2, so HE is the only danger. You didn't, or refused to see that Xarriola has his chances too. BUT that to increase his chances he had not only to drop Ile, like you, but you too. THAT'S the way to ride...You have a chance, try to work to use it. Not just wait and do nothing then... ooooooooohhhh.. I had no chance, got second, that was the best I could do. It isn't... Yes, Monte Christo being ahead had better chances. But let's say SM siebs later, Ile isolated, Bike there, SM there.... SM's chances.. 40%, Iles chances 35%, Austis 25%. If he does the sieb and isolates BOTH, it becomes SM 30%, Ile 40% Austis 30%. he would be stupid not to do it. As stupid as you were complaining about a manager doing the right thing and fighting for his chances.

So, for those that didn't get it... escape, with the red wearer from Bouletten, after a while Tutti starts full poewr to get them. A bit later they try again, this time tutti doesn't react immediately.. but then Austis does an early sieb or uses one to weaken SM and Ile.

Then next round of complaining: SM and the ones above involved again mostly.
Ile puts in his helper, 85 mountain at the Glaubenberg. Offline setting. Aaahhh, the unfairness of it all. WHY? THAT'S WHY OFFLINE SETTINGS ARE THERE you whiners. TO MAKE SETTINGS WHEN YOU ARE OFF. And especially in a group with the fairness guru Heidfeld, only putting in following would be completely stupid. You'll end up at 20' like that. Ile did the right thing. To win, he needed to sieb away as many guys as possible, First of all of course the SMs. He tried, not successfully because the helper was too dead, but the offlinesetting was correct, and not in the least unfair. If you are off, you have a chance to win yellow, you have a disadvantage already.. .but if you have a rider, or more, that can help you to increase your chances even offline.. use it. That's what he did. Correct, stop whining..

Then Austis siebs with Gassmann, stronger sieb, I actually expected it earlier. SM let's Parkola help his second classic, 69... not perfect obviously. Yes, he has one more to control, but LOTS of other flat guys in the group too... first mistake, but no problem, can happen... Then after waiting a few times for that 69, he lets Parkola ride alone to catch up with Arbuckle and Stoffel. Parkola though seemed weakish already, gaines less than I thought. On top, 1 climbers group. Then, very interesting situation behind. First Soneau, Todea with Heidfelds Mantheou and Guttenberg, who was obviously helping. Next, the 2 SMs maybe Superchi there too? Next the TUTTIS, Tikki, 85 climber as help, Beduschi and Superchi if he wasn't with the SMs... Heidfelds sitter Poké, clearly didn't know what to do... Wait? Go on... in out in I think, then rode a km... And in that km SM did an unbelievable mistake.. he waited for Parkolla who was 20+" back and BEHIND the TUTTIS, ok clear, now wait for Tutti... Tutti then rode the downhill logically. And continued with Superchi in the flat.. .first catching Cosa who had attacked near the top or in the downhill... Then continuing until the 6. Sometimes around there he asked Austis: Let's collaborate? For your GC and my stage. In Italian.. .. Austis said yes, but really he couldn't do much...and didn't... Gassmann and Xarriola not good enough. in the downhill and the flat. TUTTI rode a bit strangely there, using Cueto.. ok he was a bit weakened from a tempo km to get the mountains, the last one 2 or 3 times... but... why use him, keep 2 options, use Tikki and Superchi. Especially on that -11 at the end.. .grrrrrrr... damn Cueto dropped Todea.

Anyway: Unhappy people again. Cosa... Tutti again chasing.. I had hoped you follow with Cueto. Weeeeeeeeeelll... actually could have been an option. Follow with Cueto.. ride down with Superchi, attack with Beduschi, then ride with Beduschi up to the 2 climbers and bring them to the end. But since he hadn't followed with Cueto, and why should he follow the Cosa guy anyway... he did the right thing in chasing. Single climber ahead first get him, then you can attack. But well, Cosa didn't like to be chased.. .well, again, somebody demanding that everybody just stops riding for their chances and let them the win?
SM unhappy too. And still no reason to be. YOU were brilliant enough to drop back to Parkkola.. who you then dropped in the downhill.. and didn't wait.. there not waiting was ok IMO, was still some hard km downhill coming... don't wait ok. But why drop? Yes, you say you need Martin for the end... he doesn't hurt there, true... but... see what happens... you ride green with Arbuckle... downhill... what happens? Does Tutti with Tikki and others help? He wants the stage, maybe he does.. if he does... perfect... you come back to the climbers group. If he doesn't... just go down with Arbuckle, easily, slowly... first not sure if Gassmann even rides in front. If he does and you go down green or blue with Arbuckle, he wins time, if you go red, he loses and gives up. Because he knows in the flat you get him. Flat, go green... maybe blue until you get them... then green with Arbuckle... slowly, slowly. .then? Lots of things can happen. Beduschi Superchi and co can attack before the 6. With the danger Soneau there. What do you do... a) you follow one of Beduschi, Soneau, Mantheou, Superchi or Todea (mmmh, if Arbuckle rides down maybe Todea stays) Maybe not Todea because the ape notoriously get's the wrong wheel. Soneau the wheel probably. Then see.. MAYBE Stoffel follows... maybe not. Keep Arbuckle in the back... if he Stoffel follows, attack the next km. with Arbuckle and try to reach that group... if nobody rides, done, if somebody rides, perfect... Or if you don't follow, then you have Arbuckle, then a lots of climbers with less than 60 flat.. .you can try to attack with Stoffel. Those who try to follow will... but who will try.. not sure everybody has the experience to follow you. Or, just ride red with Arbuckle and chase... you'll lose time, but ok. Anway, you're not in a perfect position, but you're not in a hopeless one. But falling behind Tutti, you put yourself in a hopeless one, was clear you would be forced to ride red with Arbuckle the whole time in the flat, until the 6... the other way maybe with long green... you can save him longer. Or even don't ride at all... So sorry, until that point you only had yourself to blame.

Then the 6, and after that things got indeed strange. Sometimes around there Ile got surprisingly back.. .he didn't know if he could, had announced he couldn't, but finally managed. Then the 6, somebody siebs, maybe Gassmann.. .the tempo making Superchi is dropped. Then... first nobody in tempo, then Monte Christo... wow.... he is losing the tour there. But then... Poke tries an attack, if it works can be very good... Guttenberg with Mantheou, Mantheou green.. .can't escape. Guttenberg obviously caught the next km... while there Mantheou gets 5" with a blue attack. Then... Beduschi in tempo. And sorry Tutti, that was completely idiotic. By now Beduschi was your leader... Beduschi the only fresh one very likely. And in the last climb you actually rode for Beduschi, you let Cueto wait for him. You let Beduschi ride for 5+ Km red, and then think he has ANY chances to do anything in the final climb? An 8 and I think a 6 too? Somebody please explain the concept of energy to Tutti, because his way of riding there was just BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD. And the way he still rode for Beduschi tells me that he simply doesn't get it that energy is the most important. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Until there everything was good, right, understandeble. There were other ways of riding, but the way he rode was certainly not wrong, or illogical. One of a few promising options. But then? You destroyed you own work. For NOTHING. You could only lose that way. Mantheou attacks. You have to be on Mantheou anyway. Then it's Mantheou, you and Soneau in front .And then.. ride? Yes. But maybe blue, and ask Soneau to ride red. Best hill value, good sprint PLUS he risks winning the general with that. Or agree to all ride red, BUT, Wizard has to ride the 8 only blue so not to drop you and not sprint at the end... Anything .Or attack with Beduschi yourself... normally Mantheou and Soneau should be on you, same thing happens. But then RIDING with Beduschi? S T R A N G E. Becaue Cueto wasn't fit, he wasn't really a favorite there. Ok, if he just follows Soneau.. no more tempo, maybe he can stay with him.. .then ok.. But RIDING with Beduschi for BEDUSCHI???????? S T U P I D. Unbelievably stupid, incredibly pointless, one of the dumbest decisions I have ever seen. Worse than SM dropping Parkola, by roughly 54 Million lightyears (counted in a parallel universe where a light travels even faster) WHAT was he thinking. So ok, Mantheou by Heid in front, Beduschi carrying the climbers group chasing. Last climb, 8 lots of attacks, Xarriola in front of Monte Christo, with Toykalla. They ride, gain time, but in the flat Soneau attacks from behind and passes them. Mistake by the 2 there not to even try to follow Soneau though. But ok, wasn't going to be enough with some seconds more either... plus minimal gain, wouldn't have been 5 since then Soneau wouldn't have kept riding I guess. So Monte Christo wins...

SM still highly unhappy, and this time understandeble at first tought.. The way Tutti rode after the 6 was just really really bad. Did he ride against SM on purpose? Could be, don't really think... but even if he did.. only 50% scandalous. With all the idiocies SM had been saying the whole day and the day before as well, when Tuttis way of riding was absolutely ok... riding for himself in a logical way... that's the risk you take with the boring attempts to influence others in the chat. Sometimes you are successful. But sometimes the success is not the intended one, sometimes you get people to ride against you, instead of FOR you like you ( a more general "you" then SM now, but SM is certainly part of that you) like you intended. And then you have NO right whatsoever to complain. You are attempting to get somebody to ride for you. Without benefit to him. (Yes, sometimes it's mutual benefit, the option that you want wouldn't hurt the other either, but in those cases most of the time he can get the same benefits by just keep riding like he does, but very often the demanded action actually hurts the guy who is encouraged to do it.) If he does that... will you complain. NO... you sometimes shamelessly, sometimes because of myopy, seeing only your race, sometimes by not understanding anything about what's actually going on get a guy to ride for YOU. And you have no problem with it. So.... if somebody then rides AGAINST you, well, tough luck eh? That's the game you play, deal with it, your game is dishonest, unfair and furthermore extremely boring, don't even DARE complaining if it backfires. 100% acceptable behaviour to work on purpose against those "chat heroes". Still only 50% scandalous here? The scandalous part was not riding against SM, it was throwing away a chance for the win. Because that what Tutti did.. .embarrasingly bad. But anyway, I'm fairly convinced Tutti wasn't doing that anyway. If he had, would he had actually ridden for Beduschi after using him for 5+ km? As a alibi? Doubt it. No, that was just bad.. plus he had shown glimpses of bad understanding of the game before. Like using Beduschi to get a group that by then was under control, so sacrificing his best chance for the win that day. For a guy with his experience that's bad. Yes, I know he doesn't have a lot of experience, that's why I said HIS experience. Yesterday was even worse of course...the way to go for the win was so clear... Beduschi attack, or at the minimum follow Mantheou. Then deal with Soneau. I actually have no clue if Soneau wins solo if he drops them at the 8, or if they come back, sitter CC should know such stuff, if he's still reading (he usually ignores Ape posts unless there's personal stories in it.....) can say what he thinks... Ride for Beduschi... ok, not like this. So here of course SM can kind of have regrets... it was unnessesary riding. Logic would be, follow, then let Gassmann ride in the back to keep SM away, if he comes back, let Arbuckle ride, then see hwat happens in the end... which could have gone either way... Of coures SM is frustrated, rightly so. And didn't let loose his frustration with lots of insults, like others do (not the ape, he insults in different situations...) +++ for him there. But in the end I believe it was just BAD riding by Tutti there, nothing more. (And if it was more, then SM would lose his right to be frustrated anyway). And don't think he rode Austis either.. losts of it benefitted Austis, but Ile as well.

So, interesting stage, unlike this post as FL will say... And IMO there was some very good riding, until the last 6, from then on it was definetly not good, until there... high quality stage, disturbed by a bunch of whiners...
Oh, last whiner of course: Bike Austis. Reason. He was born (or grew up at least) in Austis, not in Fordongianus. Like the ape, he is right to complain, that really is a hard blow, to be so near Fordongianus, but not to be from there, but Austis of all places instead. That's hard.

So Ile won... not undeserved, he certainly was lucky too... but well... the guy that wins without luck hasn't been here yet (no players from Fordongianus here yet, so...) And some "maybe multi, maybe comebacker" rumours here and there during the race... don't think.. he made small mistakes too, like when he went in tempo in front in the flat after the famous 6... no, he has just to follow Xarriola, who will never drop him in the flat, and let Gassmann ride if anything. If he rides, and if he rides 3-4 km, he will not win this tour, saved by Tuttis "moments of complete folly, ignorance and horrible riding". If Beduschi follows Mantheou... Monte Christo keeps riding... It will be Xarriola vs Stoffel vs Soneau. No chance for Monte Christo very likely.

Bah... took me so long to write this that now the race I'm not riding because I'll be in bed before it starts anyway has started.. .and the ape slowly waking up.. grrrrrrr

[Robyklebt]

Oh, one more thing.

Weirdo of the day is Chartreuse though. He somehow managed to let drop Chicot and 2 others in the first few km.. no idea why, if on purpose, by accident or what... So Chicot instead of a top 10 place ends up... hors delay. (I think, maybe he just saved himself? Doubt it, won't check..)

[superemre]

Oh, last whiner of course: Bike Austis. Reason. He was born (or grew up at least) in Austis, not in Fordongianus. Like the ape, he is right to complain, that really is a hard blow, to be so near Fordongianus, but not to be from there, but Austis of all places instead. That's hard.

are you crazy????????


giusto una domanda in italiano, una curiosità: se beduschi seguiva romain, o attaccava in flat, ille sarebbe stato costretto a tirare, e dopo 2/3 km xarriola essendo piu riposato poteva attaccare gia in pianura e vincere il tour? e se ille non tirava xarriola attaccava subito (in flat xarriola 60 e Cristo 59(very bad name) poteva staccarlo secondo te?

seconda domanda : xarriola (60 flat era in grado di seguire soneau 71 flat)?

ps. roby, ci ho messo mezzora per leggere tutto ! taglia!

grazie

[NoPikouze]

Oh, one more thing.

Weirdo of the day is Chartreuse though. He somehow managed to let drop Chicot and 2 others in the first few km.. no idea why, if on purpose, by accident or what... So Chicot instead of a top 10 place ends up... hors delay. (I think, maybe he just saved himself? Doubt it, won't check..)

He wanted to give up since he couldn't win anymore, to spare energy for the next stagerace !

[Robyklebt]

Attaccare dopo 2-3 in pianura? Cosi vinceva un altro credo. Lui ti segue normalemente, e ci riesce facilmente... e poi? Energia persa. No... lascialo tirare fino alla salita, attacca e gli prendi molto tempo. Anche se non capisco troppo perche lui tirava.... in quel momento.

Seguire Soneau? Si... con la stessa energia un 60 normalemente segue un 71, se e il 71 che attacca. Se Soneau segue un 80 o qualcosa, ovviamente no. Nel finale la... non sono sicuro... avevi meno energia gia, non sicuro che riesci a seguirlo, pero valeva la pena provarci. Anche se in fin dei conti avresti guadagnato pochissimo...



NoPik: MMh... somebody tell Chartreuse that autotempo is not the best way to save energy....

[superemre]

Ok, thank you roby,

see you

[flockmastoR]

To the Heidfeld double attack: as i read it in the log he attacked with Guttenberg and knew which climber is in his wheel and tried to follow that one with his classic but wasnt able to (on a +2 and that surprised me a lot), that was a good try!

[Robyklebt]

No, he just tried green with Mantheou...

[flockmastoR]

No, he just tried green with Mantheou...

hm ok hab mich wohl verlesen