Team attack - AGF - Kisoro-Kabale 11h

[flockmastoR]

AGF has done a Normal Team Attack (rule 1) at todays race.

Chat

Czech lions(12:49): gw
Fraegg(12:47): here is sunny. christmas market is waiting with kids
Tukhtahuaev(12:47): gw
Fraegg(12:47): no problem
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:46): even if it is more Fogday here
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:46): thank you, have a nice Sunday
Fraegg(12:46): clearly
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:46): yes Tuk ("all strategies etc.")
Fraegg(12:46): thats are sets, i dont like you
Fraegg(12:45): bah
FSG Sattelpuper(12:45): GW AGF
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:45): you could have won if you played with brain^^
Tukhtahuaev(12:45): Lula even more annoying
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:45): i switched to Afnor when he attacked but too late connexion in the train...
Fraegg(12:45): 90km off, no energy for better place...
Tukhtahuaev(12:45): All strategies get thrown out of the window if half the field is completely off for most of the race
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:44): well, well done to you. if you had a better strategy, i never win this...
Fraegg(12:43): well done,
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:43): 12 classics better than mine, all isolated...
Fraegg(12:43): gw
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:42): thank you, finally, you fucked up the race but it benefits to me...
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:22): disastrous strategy imho, but let's see
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:14): of course you did not help on the 8, but now.as im dropped you make tempo... nice Tuk...
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:13): ok said nothing
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:13): dmytro
Tukhtahuaev(12:13): Female c4f would be nice
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:13): up to dym
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:12): she drops
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:12): misclick
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:12): my bad for Mercedes
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:11): *and
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:11): abd women can win over men
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:11): imho the mix in same raceq is a good compromise.
Fraegg(12:11): Manzu is a Weightlifter in real. stronger than many men...
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:11): then, create female and male races on rsf. Otherwise it would be sexist^^
Tukhtahuaev(12:10): It just doesn't feel realistic
Tukhtahuaev(12:09): Would be nice if that was the case
Fraegg(12:09): woman hater Tuk. wow.
Fraegg(12:09): :D:D
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:09): (Mercedes and Blanche too)
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:09): some girls are much stronger than some men^^
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:08): don't be sexist Tuk
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:08): yes
Tukhtahuaev(12:08): Salima is also female, right?
Tukhtahuaev(12:07): That female rider name
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:06): #28 ?
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:06): bla yourself. Ride in a more fair way, Fraegg, and i will not annoy you
Tukhtahuaev(12:06): #28 is enough justification for intense dislike
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:05): it is maybe personal "for free", or racism anti-FR, or whatever else (i have seen many horrible things/behaviourss on rsf since many years, i won't be surprised...
Fraegg(12:04): bla
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:04): but yiu have no rational reason for it
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:04): *did = yes you never liked me
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:03): yes you did
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:03): Remember: if you ride like an asshole with me, i do the same with you. If you do like today, coming after 100 off km and immediately destroying race, well don't be surprise if i ride like an asshole with you after that
Fraegg(12:03): you
Fraegg(12:03): Never liked yiu, idefix.
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:02): but ok, maybe it is just your way of riding
Fraegg(12:02): ach, no forum or chat for me. that is bullshit and wasted time.
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:01): chat, forum, rumors... many things...
Fraegg(12:01): not really, i ride not with Donkey. is my mean, and not from others, guy.
Fraegg(12:00): AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(11:58): hnthey entered in your mind, Fraegg. But you have no rational reason to think what you think about me
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(12:00): today unfair riding ? Who has a 78-80 and did no tempo ? Whi has a hillsprinter with no tempo ? How has many classics with no tempo in peloton ? Who comes into race after 100 km off and destroys it ? Answer : 4 different teams (1 for each question), and all those 4 are not me. Seems fairness is on my side today, the only who works properly (excepted the Czech/Tuk escape ofc)
Fraegg(11:58): "Bock" to ride
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(11:58): if you consider facts at least
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(11:58): hnthey entered in your mind, Fraegg. But you have no rational reason to think what you think about me
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(11:57): hopefully still some teams on this game with decent critical mind
Fraegg(11:56): who....
Tukhtahuaev(11:56): The unfair riding stuff has nothing to do with his very sensible opinion
Fraegg(11:56): no plan,where is this donkey/Schartner.
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(11:55): propaganda that works well, unfortunately...
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(11:55): not really... you have no argument excepted Donkey/Schartner propaganda...
Fraegg(11:54): yes, we need a rule for unfair riding, you are one of the first....
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(11:53): pb is not you, but the system
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(11:53): no offense Fraegg
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(11:53): really we need a rule much more strict for offliners that destroys races
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(11:52): nice, off 100 km and siebing all my helpers, as i did 100% of peloton job until.now...
Fraegg(11:46): da war ja noch was.....
Fraegg(11:46): hey
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(11:39): chat on mobile really not optimal
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(11:39): *don't think about hell
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(11:39): wow
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(11:39): bout hell
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(11:39): dpn't thu
Tukhtahuaev(11:37): You also could have gotten free in here
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(11:33): best classic in escape without puller, best hill sprinter on/off with no tempo for his chances, 3 of the 3 teams online at start all in escape... This kind of races sucks with that few people / few full online
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(11:32): bit since start
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(11:32): yes
Tukhtahuaev(11:31): That's awkward now
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(11:06): any
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(11:06): i am in a train so at every moment i disappear
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(11:05): xD
Tukhtahuaev(11:04): Those guys should be banned
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(11:03): pffff so many classics and illegal 78-80
Tukhtahuaev(11:02): Hello
AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(11:02): hi

Spectator Chat

AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)(15:29): eacuse no money for 9 riders in team. Fazi soon sold, almost no race for Fazi the last month (excepted tours ofc)
Alive And Dead(12:15): thought this Fazi will dominate the December tour, why is he riding the side program?
Alive And Dead(12:13): well that was a team attack

Km: 142, Steigung: 1
Salima Gineau (AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)) attackiert
Dmytro Kravchenko (Tukhtahuaev) geht mit
Mercedes Electra (AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)) attackiert
Roberto Fazi (AGF (Asso du Ghetto FR)) attackiert

Situation was as follows: Mercedes Electra was riding tempo in the peloton for quite some km already. He attacked with him and his 2 leaders out of the tempo gaining 28s with a green attack of Fazi, he finally won the race by 30s.

[IDF]

"Situation was as follows: Mercedes Electra was riding tempo in the peloton for quite some km already. He attacked with him and his 2 leaders out of the tempo gaining 28s with a green attack of Fazi, he finally won the race by 30s."

So are you trying to say/understate that Fazi was the rider who caused the team attack?

Because btw, as you can see in the replay as i did too before replying to you, Mercedes was dropped the km later and was way behind Fazi and Salima so had no impact on the final result.

[Hansa]

So attacking out of tempo has no impact on the race situation?

[Alkworld]

The interesting question would be, if the triple attack was intentional and not just caused by changing the mind too late, network issue, or sausage fingers. If it was intentional, it was a team attack with some benefit for the attacker.

[lennylenny]

The interesting question would be, if the triple attack was intentional and not just caused by changing the mind too late, network issue, or sausage fingers. If it was intentional, it was a team attack with some benefit for the attacker.

it was a team attack with some benefit for the attacker anyway

[flockmastoR]

"Situation was as follows: Mercedes Electra was riding tempo in the peloton for quite some km already. He attacked with him and his 2 leaders out of the tempo gaining 28s with a green attack of Fazi, he finally won the race by 30s."

So are you trying to say/understate that Fazi was the rider who caused the team attack?

Because btw, as you can see in the replay as i did too before replying to you, Mercedes was dropped the km later and was way behind Fazi and Salima so had no impact on the final result.

Just imagine the situation without the illegal team attack. In a legal attack you need to put Mercedes out of tempo. So in that scenario an opponent has the chance to block your green Fazi attack. So attacking with Mercedes brought you a tactical advantage.

[Radunion]

As you can block your own attack, I guess he sec-tricked him out of tempo for the attack.

[Quick]

Guys, you can stop explaining him the situation. Mate has over 2500 races and isn't shy do share his superior knowledge in the race chat. He knows what he did...

[team fl]

As you can block your own attack, I guess he sec-tricked him out of tempo for the attack.

You guess? Have you seen it or is this just speculation?

[Radunion]

As you can block your own attack, I guess he sec-tricked him out of tempo for the attack.

You guess? Have you seen it or is this just speculation?

Yes I should not have put myself into this heated situation. From the discussion so far I just do not see how he gained an advantage. But I see that AGF is able to defend himself and hopefully judged on his deeds not his attitude.

[IDF]

The interesting question would be, if the triple attack was intentional and not just caused by changing the mind too late, network issue, or sausage fingers. If it was intentional, it was a team attack with some benefit for the attacker.

You read my mind, it was my thought behind the initial question.

[IDF]

"Situation was as follows: Mercedes Electra was riding tempo in the peloton for quite some km already. He attacked with him and his 2 leaders out of the tempo gaining 28s with a green attack of Fazi, he finally won the race by 30s."

So are you trying to say/understate that Fazi was the rider who caused the team attack?

Because btw, as you can see in the replay as i did too before replying to you, Mercedes was dropped the km later and was way behind Fazi and Salima so had no impact on the final result.

Just imagine the situation without the illegal team attack. In a legal attack you need to put Mercedes out of tempo. So in that scenario an opponent has the chance to block your green Fazi attack. So attacking with Mercedes brought you a tactical advantage.

Not sure. If the rider is in tempo and moves, the group (where the guy is in tempo) is not pull if i remember well.

[IDF]

The interesting question would be, if the triple attack was intentional and not just caused by changing the mind too late, network issue, or sausage fingers. If it was intentional, it was a team attack with some benefit for the attacker.

You read my mind, it was my thought behind the initial question.

Another case who's happening right now at tonight's race (19 o'clock)

Km: 2, Incline: 0

David Rielo (escartinos) attacks

Mario Fernandez (escartinos) attacks

Wong Gregory (Team Bitibert) follows

Harry Iauko (SV Furpach) attacks

Karl May (Rsc Spree) attacks

Boone Rivera (Rsc Spree) attacks

Denis Valderrama (r QUICK) attacks

Viktor Panke (Rsc Spree) attacks

Spree triple attack was intentional? If yes, should be punishable? Harsh. Btw he has dropped his guy 3 kms later.

Edit : i don't mind about Spree, just to say it. It's just to show how it's difficult to say which is consider as a team attack and how if punishable or not.

[Alkworld]

Spree triple attack was intentional? If yes, should be punishable? Harsh. Btw he has dropped his guy 3 kms later.
Edit : i don't mind about Spree, just to say it. It's just to show how it's difficult to say which is consider as a team attack and how if punishable or not.

In this specific case the probability is high it was just an accident because the triple attack makes no sense at all here. But there sure are more and less obvious cases. And what the manager actually thought he can either tell us or keep it to himself, which leaves the rest with guessing

[Schartner Bombe]

I dont understand whats discussed here?

1. "Rule 1: Attacks (not follwing) with more than 2 riders at a specific km are not allowed.
- Exception: You can do that during the last 10 km of a race (the rule is not valid for the last 10 km of a race)
-> Easy, just don't attack with more than two riders at a specific km"

2. It's nothing new that AGF plays unfairly

[Gipfelstuermer]

FPC Decision: Fine of 267,000, consisting out of 150,000 penalty and 117,000 prize money from the race. The penalty of 150,000 is below the 250,000 recommended by the penalty guideline against the background that it was AGF's first such team attack and potentially a misclick. The FPC recognized AGF's apology but also that he gained an advantage through the illegal team attack.

[IDF]

Could we have an clear explanation about "gaining an advantage" guys please?

[Gipfelstuermer]

Could we have an clear explanation about "gaining an advantage" guys please?

The penalty guideline differentiates on whether an illegal team attack had "Einfluss" (German word, which as a direct translation is more like "impact" rather than "advantage") on the race. But you should know that because you were in FPC before and penalty guideline remained the same. To decide, whether something had an impact, judgement is necessary.

[IDF]

So tell us which was the impact of which of his 3 riders?
I saw only 2 personnally.

[Gipfelstuermer]

So tell us which was the impact of which of his 3 riders?
I saw only 2 personnally.

The impact has been explained in this thread already. By and large, FPC followed this line of argument.

gaining 28s with a green attack of Fazi, he finally won the race by 30s.

If it was intentional, it was a team attack with some benefit for the attacker.

it was a team attack with some benefit for the attacker anyway

In a legal attack you need to put Mercedes out of tempo. So in that scenario an opponent has the chance to block your green Fazi attack. So attacking with Mercedes brought you a tactical advantage.

[IDF]

So tell us which was the impact of which of his 3 riders?
I saw only 2 personnally.

The impact has been explained in this thread already. By and large, FPC followed this line of argument.

gaining 28s with a green attack of Fazi, he finally won the race by 30s.

If it was intentional, it was a team attack with some benefit for the attacker.

it was a team attack with some benefit for the attacker anyway

In a legal attack you need to put Mercedes out of tempo. So in that scenario an opponent has the chance to block your green Fazi attack. So attacking with Mercedes brought you a tactical advantage.

Quote 1 : it's the same thing as " so 30-28 = 2 secs, he could have won by 2 secs , so no impact". If you consider that, you consider that Fazi was the third rider and the rider who was too much. That's the thing that i asked couple posts before.

Quote 2 : Who knows if it was intentional or not? As said Alk " IF it was"... And AGF apologized just 1 mn after this team attack.

Quote 3 : again, which benefit? Which is still my question.
A climber could have followed Fazi on flat btw f.e..

Quote 4 : nobody answered me but for me, if you attack with the rider in tempo, it's the same situation as nobody was riding behind. As i said again, not sure, if someone can confirm it.

I - and maybe we, as a community - just want a detailed answer about what is behind the fine and to have a good jurisprudence on it, nothing more, nothing less.

[Quick]

Attacking out of tempo is the most effective attack you can do. The 3rd guy here is the one who usually sectricks out of tempo. The sectrick carries the risk of being too late or too early. That risk was eliminated by the illegal team attack and an advantage was gained.

[flockmastoR]

So tell us which was the impact of which of his 3 riders?
I saw only 2 personnally.

The impact has been explained in this thread already. By and large, FPC followed this line of argument.

gaining 28s with a green attack of Fazi, he finally won the race by 30s.

If it was intentional, it was a team attack with some benefit for the attacker.

it was a team attack with some benefit for the attacker anyway

In a legal attack you need to put Mercedes out of tempo. So in that scenario an opponent has the chance to block your green Fazi attack. So attacking with Mercedes brought you a tactical advantage.

Quote 1 : it's the same thing as " so 30-28 = 2 secs, he could have won by 2 secs , so no impact". If you consider that, you consider that Fazi was the third rider and the rider who was too much. That's the thing that i asked couple posts before.

Quote 2 : Who knows if it was intentional or not? As said Alk " IF it was"... And AGF apologized just 1 mn after this team attack.

Quote 3 : again, which benefit? Which is still my question.
A climber could have followed Fazi on flat btw f.e..

Quote 4 : nobody answered me but for me, if you attack with the rider in tempo, it's the same situation as nobody was riding behind. As i said again, not sure, if someone can confirm it.

I - and maybe we, as a community - just want a detailed answer about what is behind the fine and to have a good jurisprudence on it, nothing more, nothing less.

1) "Milchmädchenrechnung", Salima Gineau landed in the chasing classic group due to the team attack, as far as I remember he was the best/one of the best sprinter there, he followed attacks there as well. He had an influence on how the chase of Fazi worked together.

2) If all 3 riders had an impact (Fazi winning, Gineau hanging around in the chasing classics group, Electra eliminating the block risk) it doesn't matter much. Rule 1 violations are active by definition, you need to actively click on attack 3 times. So even if it was not intended it can lead to a punishment, see viewtopic.php?f=16&t=9619&p=118021#p118021, or viewtopic.php?f=16&t=9611&p=117957#p117957

3) See what quick and me already wrote

4) You can block yourself when you ride tempo and follow an attack at the same km, but when you ride and attack out of tempo you don't block yourself. So there is no need to sec-trick out of tempo.