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free team - team attack (rule 1) - Tolmezzo 19h
Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2023 8:32 pm
by flockmastoR
Normal team attack (rule 1) carried out by free team at todays one day race. He was 1 km too early with his attack. Front group consisted of Diop, Völker, Zündt and Eisberg when free attacked with all of his 3 riders at km 92 (11km to the goal).
Km: 92, Steigung: 0, Kopfsteinpflaster: 1*
Manuel Zündt (free team) attackiert
Günther Eisberg (Ansach) geht mit
Patrick Völker (free team) attackiert
Abdou Diop (free team) attackiert
Noone in the race did notice (whole race chat):
r QUICK(20:08): 60k profit! One of the best races these past days. Nice
Ansach(20:07): GW
rsv lünen(20:06): gw free
r QUICK(20:05): Gw zu Platz 12 free! Gut gekämpft.
r QUICK(19:52): Richtig solides Ergebnis wird das hier. Da wär ich ohne free schlechter dran gewesen
Rsc Spree(19:51): na ja weißt selber was alle über dich denken
Rsc Spree(19:12): Urs dich gewartet
r QUICK(19:08): Urs mich gesiebt
r QUICK(19:04): Ich kann drin bleiben. Carlos fährt die nächsten Tage nichts und mit zurück kommen is hier eh nichts
Rsc Spree(19:03): Urs macht die Abfahrt
r QUICK(19:02): Warte auf Carlos Spree... zusammen kommen wir weiter
Rsc Spree(19:01): Dämliches spannungsloses Free rennen und und passendes gelaber
Rsc Spree(19:00): ja ich auch wäre lieber 2200 Uhr gefahren
free team(18:58): huhu
Ansach(18:58): hi
r QUICK(18:47): Hätte auch mal das Feld checken sollen
r QUICK(18:47): Ah, deshalb fahren wir hier nur zu 7.
spectators chat did notice:
Alive And Dead(20:17): usually he comments the spectator chat after each race, no short explanation that he didn't notice it, probably needs a thread opening
r QUICK(20:14): Well, guess it completely changed the outcome. Fine him 10m
Alive And Dead(20:11): happens, rule 1 exceptions are not that well known (there is just the 10km exception, no small group one)
r QUICK(20:09): Didn't notice tbh
Alive And Dead(20:08): indeed was a "normal team attack" rule 1
Black-Star(19:54): prolly yes
ATB - Racing(19:53): didnt noticed
ATB - Racing(19:53): i guess they didb
Black-Star(19:52): and nobody in the race seems to care aswell
Black-Star(19:52): just surprised that he attacked at all was expecting a simple sieb and that's it
Black-Star(19:51): not that it matters in anyway in this race
ATB - Racing(19:50): yeah 1 km too early.
Black-Star(19:47): ui teamattack from free
Black-Star(19:34): ahh I ignored that statement
ATB - Racing(19:30): i meant rfm, your statement was clear ;D
Black-Star(19:26): just a random comment about Lazlo's attack
Black-Star(19:25): to nobody in particular
ATB - Racing(19:23): Whom are you talking to?
Black-Star(19:23): nice the strongest not free classic just attacked for some pebbles on the road, they really want him to win
RideforMoney(19:10): But well continue to ride for him when you play against
ATB - Racing(19:06): Und dann kommt ne Gruppe durch
bergwerk(19:04): Da
bergwerk(19:04): Um fa halbwegs etwas gegen zu halten müsste man eine Teamgemeinschaft bilden ... Schönen Abend
Black-Star(19:03): also abgesehen von free natürlich
Black-Star(19:02): naja ist halt ein extrem schwaches Feld
bergwerk(19:02): Das ist so spannend wie Bayern gucken ...
Black-Star(19:00): in diesem Feld wäre ich auch gerne gefahren
bergwerk(18:59): Hat eigentlich schon jemand über eine Höchstgrenze Gehalt nachgedacht?
ATB - Racing(18:49): Will he ask for help? Well question is when?!?
ATB - Racing(18:47): Kanonen Spatzen ...
Did it have any implicatins on the result? No, Zündt went out afterwards and free won with his 2 classics riding green. Eisberg continued to ride in the Zündt group and saved 6 seconds to the next classics group ending up on place 3.
Still rule 1 team attacks are illegal, free has enough experience, he should know about rule 1.
1. Normal Team Attack. Attack (not following) with more than 2 riders of one team at the same km out of the same group. This rule is deactivated for the last 10 km of every race.
Re: free team - team attack (rule 1) - Tolmezzo 19h
Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2023 8:39 pm
by Alkworld
Just a small clarification: he didn't attack at km 92, but at the beginning of the 92nd km, which practically is after exactly 91km, which makes it 11km before the finish today. Not sure if it was clear for free, but I certainly remember people misunderstanding this a little bit.
Re: free team - team attack (rule 1) - Tolmezzo 19h
Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2023 8:43 pm
by ProTour-Team
yeah obviously 102-92 isnt 10 in regards of km. my bad, just a brainfart.
as you already said it had no impact on the result whatsoever, i guess thats why nobody else noticed it in the race aswell.
but still my mistake of course, shouldnt happen and is a violation of rule1
Re: free team - team attack (rule 1) - Tolmezzo 19h
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2023 8:47 am
by flockmastoR
FPC is reviewing this case.
Re: free team - team attack (rule 1) - Tolmezzo 19h
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2023 8:56 am
by Hansa
because i cant see the race anymore can anyone explain how it didnt have implications on the outcome?
if i check it right if free only attaacks with 2 instead of 3 he its possiblle that Ansach is then with him and can fight for stage/p2 at least?
Re: free team - team attack (rule 1) - Tolmezzo 19h
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2023 9:05 am
by Quick
Because Zündt was weak and it was obvious free should attack with his classics to win it. Also no chance for Eisberg to follow them.
Still a teamattack and he made probably some additional Dollars here. If he attacks with a sectrick the group behind catches Zündt.
Re: free team - team attack (rule 1) - Tolmezzo 19h
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2023 9:08 am
by flockmastoR
But why should he attack with a sec trick? His goal was to secure money for Zündt. IMO that was the reason he also attacked with him. If he just rides with Zündt and attacks with his classics -> same outcome
Re: free team - team attack (rule 1) - Tolmezzo 19h
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2023 9:14 am
by Black-Star
free had 2 fresh classics and 1 weak Zündt in that 4 man group which was really far infront of the 2nd group
If he doesn't attack with Zündt and just does Tempo there Zündt and Eisberg even have more power and it would not have been so close for those 2 in the end.
Zündt was the only rider Ansach could follow and so he did.But Zündt's attack made no difference in the outcome of the race.
free was always winning with his 2 classics no matter was Zündt does on that km.
Re: free team - team attack (rule 1) - Tolmezzo 19h
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2023 9:20 am
by Hansa
so the info that 2 fresh and a weak Zündt really helps, so most likely to make it legal he just attacks with the 2 fresh most liekely,
but there is still the option he attack with 1 + Zündt to make it legal that would change the outcome thats why i was asking.
Re: free team - team attack (rule 1) - Tolmezzo 19h
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2023 9:22 am
by Black-Star
Hansa wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 9:20 am
so the info that 2 fresh and a weak Zündt really helps, so most likely to make it legal he just attacks with the 2 fresh most liekely,
but there is still the option he attack with 1 + Zündt to make it legal that would change the outcome thats why i was asking.
He had enough advantage(against the 2nd group) that even if he sectricks with Zündt(who was in Tempo before the attack) and attacks with Zündt, that his classic which didn't attack, would have easily caught back up to Zündt and Eisberg and overtake them.
Re: free team - team attack (rule 1) - Tolmezzo 19h
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2023 9:45 am
by ProTour-Team
both classics were fit and if i just attack 1km later Ansach cant follow them eiter. as Ansach made tempo after my attack pretty much the same as if Zündt just stayed in tempo. so arguing for a different result is pretty wild
and the advantage against the classics behind was big enough aswell as Eisberg with only 61flat was able to keep them away during the following 10km, too
so how/why did i make additional Dollars this way, quick? zündt/eisberg getting caught by the classics behind was always Ansachs choice and he was able to keep you away even with that 1km more and less power^^
but nice to see that a teamattack by 1km without any impact is so interesting for some teams
Re: free team - team attack (rule 1) - Tolmezzo 19h
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2023 9:50 am
by Hansa
ProTour-Team wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 9:45 am
but nice to see that a teamattack by 1km without any impact is so interesting for some teams
the no impact wasnt clear for anyone who hasnt seen the race, thats why i asked to clarifiy that really helps.
Re: free team - team attack (rule 1) - Tolmezzo 19h
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2023 9:58 am
by ProTour-Team
true you didnt know why it was true, but with aad a member of the fpc already told you that it was true?
Re: free team - team attack (rule 1) - Tolmezzo 19h
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2023 11:00 am
by flockmastoR
ProTour-Team wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 9:58 am
true you didnt know why it was true, but with aad a member of the fpc already told you that it was true?
Hansa trying to get as much information as he can to complete HIS picture of the situation is good. Think you have a wrong impression on how the FPC is working.
Opponents in the race can share their opinions too. If there are any impacts it mainly concerns them not anybody else.
but nice to see that a teamattack by 1km without any impact is so interesting for some teams
Well you had a group with a lot of experienced managers. Nobody was able to identify it as an illegal team attack. Making it a topic of discussion probably sharpens our view as well.
Re: free team - team attack (rule 1) - Tolmezzo 19h
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2023 11:18 am
by Quick
ProTour-Team wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 9:45 am
so how/why did i make additional Dollars this way, quick?
We don't know which legal way free would have chose to secure the Zündt money.
He chose an illegal one. The legal way to win this is usually sectrick out with Zündt, attack with the classics. This way Zündt loses 30s and gets caught by the riders behind.
Of course if he only stays in tempo, nothing changes at all. But the greed got the better of you and I'd be fully in favor to punish that as the final result was due to your illegal attack.
Re: free team - team attack (rule 1) - Tolmezzo 19h
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2023 11:21 am
by ProTour-Team
so i want him to get caught and your argument for it is that i didnt want him to get caught. got it, thanks for that answer
Re: free team - team attack (rule 1) - Tolmezzo 19h
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2023 11:39 am
by Quick
ProTour-Team wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 11:21 am
so i want him to get caught and your argument for it is that i didnt want him to get caught. got it, thanks for that answer
If that's directed at me - >
Re: free team - team attack (rule 1) - Tolmezzo 19h
Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2023 11:37 am
by Gipfelstuermer
FPC Decision: Fine of 50,000.
FPC saw it as a rule 1 team attack which was not resolved during the race, but the team was reasonable as soon as it was highlighted to the team manager (which only happened after the race).
Re: free team - team attack (rule 1) - Tolmezzo 19h
Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2023 5:19 pm
by ProTour-Team
a bit weird as you agreed that it didnt change the outcome and nobody said anything. if anybody realises it (ofc including me and my fault first) i can react and it either is the same result or i earn not even 9k less.
50k isnt much but the reason behind it just seems far off, even more looking at other fines and no-fines.
Re: free team - team attack (rule 1) - Tolmezzo 19h
Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2023 9:26 pm
by flockmastoR
ProTour-Team wrote: ↑Mon Aug 21, 2023 5:19 pm
a bit weird as you agreed that it didnt change the outcome and nobody said anything. if anybody realises it (ofc including me and my fault first) i can react and it either is the same result or i earn not even 9k less.
50k isnt much but the reason behind it just seems far off, even more looking at other fines and no-fines.
It was an illegal team attack. A rule 1 team attack is an active violation of the fairplay rules. The fine was based on the Strafenkatalog which would range between a Warning and 100k. I think the chosen fine is reasonable.
