Joyride several team attacks

[Liquigas-CND]

Today Joyride decided to follow with almost all his riders and after the 1st team attack he kept the settings most probably knowing that he will break the rule again...but he did not care.

He dropped riders after 2nd attack/following (KM 10) but as you see below he attacks with Alex Vlad and then he decides he does not need Alex Vlad in front cause he followed with better riders. In my opinion this is not fair.

After 2 team attacks I thought he will avoid a third one by changing a bit the tactic (follow only one team or remove the following setting of 2 riders on one rider) but of course no, he did the same.

I don't accuse him of riding after team attacks because he either dropped riders after attack (imo wrong rider once) or the escape did not work or I made hard tempo to catch the group immediately.

He has 469 races, he could do something to avoid a 2nd or 3rd team attack and he should not drop the rider that attacked. These are the reasons I believe his unfair behavior ( in my opinion) should be investigated again, only couple of months after his attempt to make unrealistic arrangements (during Giro he insisted to help me by doing tempo in exchange of letting him to win a race).

Km: 3, Gradient: 0
Toakai Lemasalau (Tommy Teleshopping) attacks
Anton Pavouk (berryberry) attacks
Peter Anuels (Tommy Teleshopping) attacks
Alexandru Pliuschin (JoyRide) follows
Heimir Hallgrimsson (SV Furpach) follows
Ang Nyima (SV Furpach) follows
Panaqolus Albivermis (Kelme-Movistar) follows
Alicia Gonzalez (Schartner Bombe) follows
James Lepaio (Schartner Bombe) follows
Ernesto Mora (JoyRide) follows
Majda Aboulumosha (JoyRide) follows
Julio Gomez (Kelme-Movistar) follows
Wassil Wolski (berryberry) follows
Gilver Zurita (JoyRide) follows




Km: 10, Gradient: -1
Julian Sanechal (Mosca) attacks
Antonio Boaro (Mosca) attacks
Emil Wittgenstein (Schartner Bombe) attacks
Alexandru Pliuschin (JoyRide) attacks
Heimir Hallgrimsson (SV Furpach) follows
Ang Nyima (SV Furpach) follows
Panaqolus Albivermis (Kelme-Movistar) follows
Alicia Gonzalez (Schartner Bombe) follows
Majda Aboulumosha (JoyRide) follows
Julio Gomez (Kelme-Movistar) follows
Peter Anuels (Tommy Teleshopping) follows
Gilver Zurita (JoyRide) follows
Toakai Lemasalau (Tommy Teleshopping) follows
Wassil Wolski (berryberry) follows
James Lepaio (Schartner Bombe) attacks
Ernesto Mora (JoyRide) follows
Alex Vlad (JoyRide) attacks

Km: 12, Gradient: 2
Ernesto Mora (JoyRide) l�sst sich zur�ckfallen
Gilver Zurita (JoyRide) l�sst sich zur�ckfallen

Km: 18, Gradient: 3
Alex Vlad (JoyRide) l�sst sich zur�ckfallen

Km: 83, Gradient: 1
Emil Wittgenstein (Schartner Bombe) attacks
James Lepaio (Schartner Bombe) attacks
Alexandru Pliuschin (JoyRide) follows
Heimir Hallgrimsson (SV Furpach) follows
Peter Anuels (Tommy Teleshopping) follows
Gilver Zurita (JoyRide) follows
Ronald Lanzoni (SV Furpach) follows
Wassil Wolski (berryberry) follows
Ernesto Mora (JoyRide) follows

[ProTour-Team]

no

[team fl]

The only team attack according rule 3 I see is the one at km 83. The others include more than 4 teams and morethan 10 riders. And as you stated, he reacted correctly.

[Tommy Teleshopping PCT]

First message here. I have to say all this talk about team attacks annoys me terribly, especially as it's often incorrect and almost always not even explained when asked about.

The Vuelta is a bonanza of people following certain riders that attack every day (Pliuschin, Anuels, Albivermis and others) and one can never really see who is following whom. It begs the question, if a rider is following Anuels and another one is following a guy that is also following Anuels, when does this become a team attack?

Besides, I see in the dutch manual that, unless it's a "chain attack", following does not count. Could anyone explain for this n00b here what constitutes a team attack? I'm inclined here to side with Joyride on this issue by the way, but maybe he's grinning evilly right now.

[team fl]

First message here. I have to say all this talk about team attacks annoys me terribly, especially as it's often incorrect and almost always not even explained when asked about.

The Vuelta is a bonanza of people following certain riders that attack every day (Pliuschin, Anuels, Albivermis and others) and one can never really see who is following whom. It begs the question, if a rider is following Anuels and another one is following a guy that is also following Anuels, when does this become a team attack?

Besides, I see in the dutch manual that, unless it's a "chain attack", following does not count. Could anyone explain for this n00b here what constitutes a team attack? I'm inclined here to side with Joyride on this issue by the way, but maybe he's grinning evilly right now.

I try to summarize the rules (you agree to everytime you sign up for a race): In general, there are three rules regarding illegal team attacks, each with some exceptions. Rule 3 is the most complicated one as it has the most exceptions, but also the most common one that is breached. Therefore, you need to learn this by heart (or get it with experience). But it's logical and easy to understand. So here they are, presented a bit differently than in the ingame textbox:

Rule 1: Attacks (not follwing) with more than 2 riders at a specific km are not allowed.

- Exception: You can do that during the last 10 km of a race (the rule is not valid for the last 10 km of a race)

-> Easy, just don't attack with more than two riders at a specific km

Rule 2: Sucessful attacks (not follwing) of more than 5 different riders in between 20 km ending up in the same group are not allowed.

- Excpetion: This rule is only valid during the first half of the race.

-> Well, if you're not attending a TTT, don't try replicate it in any other race type, even if everybody else is offline

Rule 3: Chained team attacks: Attacking or following with more than 2 riders at a specific km out of the same group is not allowed.

- Exception: This rule is not valid if more than 10 riders out of at least four teams escape at the same km out of the same group.

- Exception: This rule is not valid if the initial group had less than 15 riders.

- Exception: This rule is not valid at a specific km with a climb (!) of 4% or higher.

- Excpetion: This rule is not valid for the last 20 km of a race.

-> Uff, hard one. Contrary to rule 1 and 2, this can happen passively, if you hang on other riders with more than two of your own riders. If this happens (unwantedly), you have to find out if an exception is triggered or not. If not, act accordingly. Meaning, let as many riders fall back into the initial group so the rule is not breached. Bare in mind that you should not a) wait too long and b) let a rider fall back that hasn't been used in the new group because that would be an unfair advantage due to an illegal move (act in the spirit of the rule...).

[Hunsrueck]

fpc is reviewing this case

[Joy]

Today Joyride decided to follow with almost all his riders and after the 1st team attack he kept the settings most probably knowing that he will break the rule again...but he did not care.

He dropped riders after 2nd attack/following (KM 10) but as you see below he attacks with Alex Vlad and then he decides he does not need Alex Vlad in front cause he followed with better riders. In my opinion this is not fair.

After 2 team attacks I thought he will avoid a third one by changing a bit the tactic (follow only one team or remove the following setting of 2 riders on one rider) but of course no, he did the same.

I don't accuse him of riding after team attacks because he either dropped riders after attack (imo wrong rider once) or the escape did not work or I made hard tempo to catch the group immediately.

He has 469 races, he could do something to avoid a 2nd or 3rd team attack and he should not drop the rider that attacked. These are the reasons I believe his unfair behavior ( in my opinion) should be investigated again, only couple of months after his attempt to make unrealistic arrangements (during Giro he insisted to help me by doing tempo in exchange of letting him to win a race).

Km: 3, Gradient: 0
Toakai Lemasalau (Tommy Teleshopping) attacks
Anton Pavouk (berryberry) attacks
Peter Anuels (Tommy Teleshopping) attacks
Alexandru Pliuschin (JoyRide) follows
Heimir Hallgrimsson (SV Furpach) follows
Ang Nyima (SV Furpach) follows
Panaqolus Albivermis (Kelme-Movistar) follows
Alicia Gonzalez (Schartner Bombe) follows
James Lepaio (Schartner Bombe) follows
Ernesto Mora (JoyRide) follows
Majda Aboulumosha (JoyRide) follows
Julio Gomez (Kelme-Movistar) follows
Wassil Wolski (berryberry) follows
Gilver Zurita (JoyRide) follows




Km: 10, Gradient: -1
Julian Sanechal (Mosca) attacks
Antonio Boaro (Mosca) attacks
Emil Wittgenstein (Schartner Bombe) attacks
Alexandru Pliuschin (JoyRide) attacks
Heimir Hallgrimsson (SV Furpach) follows
Ang Nyima (SV Furpach) follows
Panaqolus Albivermis (Kelme-Movistar) follows
Alicia Gonzalez (Schartner Bombe) follows
Majda Aboulumosha (JoyRide) follows
Julio Gomez (Kelme-Movistar) follows
Peter Anuels (Tommy Teleshopping) follows
Gilver Zurita (JoyRide) follows
Toakai Lemasalau (Tommy Teleshopping) follows
Wassil Wolski (berryberry) follows
James Lepaio (Schartner Bombe) attacks
Ernesto Mora (JoyRide) follows
Alex Vlad (JoyRide) attacks

Km: 12, Gradient: 2
Ernesto Mora (JoyRide) l�sst sich zur�ckfallen
Gilver Zurita (JoyRide) l�sst sich zur�ckfallen

Km: 18, Gradient: 3
Alex Vlad (JoyRide) l�sst sich zur�ckfallen

Km: 83, Gradient: 1
Emil Wittgenstein (Schartner Bombe) attacks
James Lepaio (Schartner Bombe) attacks
Alexandru Pliuschin (JoyRide) follows
Heimir Hallgrimsson (SV Furpach) follows
Peter Anuels (Tommy Teleshopping) follows
Gilver Zurita (JoyRide) follows
Ronald Lanzoni (SV Furpach) follows
Wassil Wolski (berryberry) follows
Ernesto Mora (JoyRide) follows

I whant to appologize to the FPK that must waisting time with this topic.
It is obvious that this lucky training manager named Liquigas-CND is just jealous on any skilled teams and he makes topics or talk dirty in main chat showing its value as dominant and superior

Now about the so-called several team attacks(witch actualy was only one but LiqLiq says are several LOL) the only ideea is that any offline team can set to follow the mountain jersey fighters and go off sucking untill the last kms and going for the stage win (it happended in our tour and happens often in many tours) so i just set they possible stage winners to be followed by my team for the stage win (witch made my team weaker for the GC so Liq should be glad about that cause obviosly he scared).Even so i dropded my riders every time so all this so=called team attacks that LiqLiq posted was not succesfull i didnt rode not even 1km in this groups.

I just a bit tired about this offline followings in a tour by the weak line-ups and going for a stage win while the strong team that really plays the game( because it is a online browser game) and fight for objectivs loses palmares and that little amount of money at the end of a stage in a GT.So maybe the developers might do some "upgrades" in this game so the game would be fair

Hoping I did not offend anyone (with the exception of LiqLiq) JoyRide done with this case
Thank you

PS: Still waiting for the answer if it is allowed to post a PM without the agreement of the owner of that PM and if it is not allowed (witch i know it isnt) waiting for the penalties for that manager

[Hunsrueck]

PENALTY SUBMITTED: FINE OF100000, WARNING: NO

[Robyklebt]

Not involved, didn't see the race, but still have to comment, can't resist.
Blatantly wrong decision IMO.

3 attacks were Joy Ride is accused of doing a team attack.
No 1: No team attack. 14 riders
No 2: No team attack. 17 riders
Despite that he lets fall some of his riders the second time, even though he is not required to do that in the least. No infraction, doesn't really matter if he lets somebody fall or not.

Then we have the attack at km 83. Since clearly he didn't change his following settings you could argue that he knew that it was going to be a team attack. Why would he? First 2 times his following didn't result in a team attack., why would he know it would this time. Could very well have been that others that seemingly changed their following didn't, or that more put following on.

Then there is no fall back after the team attack. Why? Liquigas says this.

I don't accuse him of riding after team attacks because he either dropped riders after attack (imo wrong rider once) or the escape did not work or I made hard tempo to catch the group immediately.

Which one was it after the third time?If it's group caught the next km... sorry, but most people don't manage to let fall in the first km. Ah, teamattack, oh, check, +4? No, clearly not enough, damn, teamattack, which one should I drop? By then the 30" are gone. If it took 10 km for the group to be caught, ok, but here from what Liquigas and Joy Ride wrote seems the issue (well, there really was an issue only once) was always solved fast .

JoyRide with his settings clearly took the risk that a team attack could happen, is that now enough to get a penalty? Because so far the penalties were, for not dropping, or dropping a used rider after x km, tempo, for trying to profit from it directly. Joy Ride maybe profited from it indirectly, by having more riders others didn't want to ride, so blocked the escape (but accoring to him he wanted to win the stage from the escape, if I read that correctly) So far stuff like this never got a fine. Team attack through too many guys following, you drop, nobody even reports it.

I don't think Joy Ride should get a fine for this.

[team fl]

I fully support Roby's post and I am haopy I don't have to write it myself .

[Joy]

OK
So now what should i understand? Somebody loves me to much in this game? Would i will be the first ever getting a fine for an unsuccesfull team attack being fair and droping riders?
Just lovely
Thx

[scorpsche]

I have 2 questions regarding this case:
1. What happened to this km83 group where JoyRide had 3 follows?
2. It seems common if teams let riders drop, this is accepted as no violation against FP rules. But the rules actually doesn't support this. So question here is: is this kind of 3+ rider follow always a violation of FP rules and if not where is the exact ruleset how to let fall riders?

[Liquigas-CND]

The violation of rules isn't conditioned by dropping riders after team attack or not!
A team attack is a team attack with or without further dropping.

I believe a team trying to take advantage after a team attack and continue riding and/or does not drop riders should be severely punished.

In case of dropping riders after team attack then 100K is enough and a normal fine IMO.

[scorpsche]

I think Liquigas opinion is questionable since:
1. He mentioned 3 team attacks when there was maximum one.
2. He has a special history with JoyRide.

I would like to hear from FPC.

[gaurain rx]

The violation of rules isn't conditioned by dropping riders after team attack or not!
A team attack is a team attack with or without further dropping.

I believe a team trying to take advantage after a team attack and continue riding and/or does not drop riders should be severely punished.

In case of dropping riders after team attack then 100K is enough and a normal fine IMO.

The opinion of a team involved in the action shouldn't be taken into account imo.

Moreover, I would compare it to formula 1: A racer overtakes another one by cutting a chicane. If he gives the position back in a short time (one lap), it's all fine. If not, then there's a penalty. The same should be applied in rsf imo.

[scorpsche]

Gaurain but it seems FPK doesn't want to bring light in this since there is no answer.
So it will remain vague and unclear.
Also I found at least 1 case here where nothing was done with 3 follows.

[scorpsche]

Gaurain but it seems FPK doesn't want to bring light in this since there is no answer.
So it will remain vague and unclear.
Also I found at least 1 case here where nothing was done with 3 follows.

I would like to bring up this topic once more since it is seems that at least a few players are confused about the team attack rule(s)...