Unrealistic arrangement, lack of separation of private and RSF of 5 Italian teams

[Robyklebt]

And what does this have to do with fairness?

It's a rhetorical question, don't worry, don't expect an answer. Apart from the fact that you don't know what fairness is, you're once again just spamming and trolling.

[luques]

I think you have some problems in understanding the off topic word, or what we mean in this forum as off topic (probably need to write a general rules for this section, will speak with the FPK members).

1) That thread is about Goldberg and Quickstep, in your screenshot there is nothing about that.
Post in that thread if you have new material about Goldberg and Quickstep supposed sprint agreement.
Otherwise it is off topic, because the topic it is Goldberg and Quickstep, not Auxilium and Doria.

2) So the best place would have been probably here, as it involves 2 teams of this topic, or maybe opening a new one, cooperation Auxilium Doria.

3) If, as you say, this is not an accusation, nor proof of something, then I think it doesn't belong to the Fairplay forum, which is instead made for topics related to fair play breaches and FPK discussion. I guess then the post can be eliminated or just moved to the off topic part of the forum.
That's the place if you want to have fun.

4) Just in case someone is wondering, Auxilium and Doria have the 2 best ITT riders of the 23h Denmark group (90vs89) and they were riding together in peloton for (I suppose) a ms.

[auxilium torino]

Is Mr. Fairplay SWE tonight on pause?
Nothing to say about the sprint on 23 Hours at Danemark tour?

[scorpsche]

I think you have some problems in understanding the off topic word, or what we mean in this forum as off topic (probably need to write a general rules for this section, will speak with the FPK members).

1) That thread is about Goldberg and Quickstep, in your screenshot there is nothing about that.
Post in that thread if you have new material about Goldberg and Quickstep supposed sprint agreement.
Otherwise it is off topic, because the topic it is Goldberg and Quickstep, not Auxilium and Doria.

2) So the best place would have been probably here, as it involves 2 teams of this topic, or maybe opening a new one, cooperation Auxilium Doria.

3) If, as you say, this is not an accusation, nor proof of something, then I think it doesn't belong to the Fairplay forum, which is instead made for topics related to fair play breaches and FPK discussion. I guess then the post can be eliminated or just moved to the off topic part of the forum.
That's the place if you want to have fun.

4) Just in case someone is wondering, Auxilium and Doria have the 2 best ITT riders of the 23h Denmark group (90vs89) and they were riding together in peloton for (I suppose) a ms.

I think you have a problem with understanding me.
Again: I didn't accuse any with my post, I just was emotionally touched by 2 teams working for a common goal.

1) I agree it doesn't fit 100% but please don't move here if I not explicit accuse someone. The reason why I posted in the other thread is because Aux accused a new team to play unfair. In the very same race he worked together with DORIA which was noted by free. So I just wanted to show that these two teams like to work together in at least more than 1 race (coincidence or not).

2) No since this thread is about race where I was involved and I claim that I have observed unfair riding (which is not the case for Aux/DORIA).

3) Ok then move it to off topic or delete it if you want.

4) True, as I said I don't accuse. Even if both are part of connection or not - the behavior in Denmark tour is maximum borderline (not even).

[scorpsche]

Is Mr. Fairplay SWE tonight on pause?
Nothing to say about the sprint on 23 Hours at Danemark tour?

I didn't watch your race, was busy with mine. Just open your own thread if you feel to do so.

[Robyklebt]

Probably time to ban the SWE forum account....

[Golden State Team]

Probably time to ban the SWE forum account....

Yes please!

[scorpsche]

I would like to extend the investigation to 2 other teams: DORIA and Team Fedex.

Aux. and DORIA really doing every race together and always with a very similar team and 95% working together.
Team Fedex seems recently joined the club...

Why now? The better question is why is FPC not doing it's job and have an eye on team connections?

The reason why I am speaking out now is related to my observations in the last days.

October 2:
21h race: Team Fedex is fed up after being left alone by other sprinter teams - group wins
24h race: DORIA + Aux. usual "random" collaboration...

October 3:
23h race: Team Fedex, DORIA, Aux. in the same race and Free is winning without much effort. All three players are "fed up" including the usual rude behavior by Aux. giving -2 even to Guciu without reason.

October 4:
22h race: Team Fedex, DORIA, Aux. were registered but what a strange "coincidence" => all 3 three disappeared from the race letting left RfM as only sprint team.
24h race: 3 teams listed above magically appeared and escaping all together. This can't be interpreted as something else as riding together vs. free team. This implies a violation against the rules "Unrealistic arrangement, lack of separation of private and RSF".

[scorpsche]

And basically Aux. is not even trying to hide anything anymore...

Continuously violating fairplay rules?
No problem if FPC does nothing...

Bildschirmfoto 2018-10-05 um 23.52.14.png (90.9 KiB) Viewed 7309 times

[luques]

How is it violating the rules?

[scorpsche]

No problem Luques, if you don't know the rules it might be sound problematic but I'm glad to help you (also I it is written in this post even in the title).

Following part of the FP rules marked in red are (almost every day) violated especially by Aux. & DORIA:
"Other fair-play rules:
- It is forbidden to be sitted in 1 day races
- unrealistic arrangements are not allowed
- every manager must do the best for his team . Separation of private and RSF is required."

I assume you really don't know...the other conclusion would be that you just try to protect certain players.
And that would be...not so nice, right?

[High Flyer]

Considering there are teams who openly know each other out of game and teams who have openly planned how they want a race to end before it starts (aka Mass Sprint or drop sprinters), i thinkt he point is, you're not actually proving anything punishable, just something to be looked out for.

[luques]

Considering there are teams who openly know each other out of game and teams who have openly planned how they want a race to end before it starts (aka Mass Sprint or drop sprinters), i thinkt he point is, you're not actually proving anything punishable, just something to be looked out for.

Good point HF!
Not only, arrangement should be unrealistic. This means that arrangements in RSF are not against rules, indeed in every race there are people who try to go together for a sprint or try to sieb a sprinter or they go into an escape and so on.

The problem would be if someone for example on a sprinter race doesn't have a sprinter but works alone all the stage for someone ohter and disappears at the end.
This is unrealistic.

There are many teams that actually inscribe in a race and go out at the last moment, as well as there are teams that arrange in main chat, in race chat, whatever. But as long as the arrangement is fair, I don't see the point of complaining.

P.S. No, don't worry I know the rules, and I'm not trying to protect somebody, just felt a bit of compassion as nobody was caring at all about what you were writing. But as having a discussion with you it's kind of useless, would have been better if I stayed silent and let the topic die as it was doing...

[scorpsche]

You Luques and the 3-4 others can write here what you want.

I know what is true!
I ride the evening races since months - you and other don't!
I know the behavior of the connection!

And I'm not the only one.
Some people speak/spoke out already, others share me in private that I am right.

The sad point is: I know that you also know what is going on.
Just for some reasons you decide that it is ok - which it is definitely not.

For me it is totally bullshit to say: they can ride like this, it is ok...since they know each other.
Pardon what?
It is exactly the FP rule violated.
Compare to real cycling, where do you 2-3 teams working the whole season together?
It does not exist, every team is look for it's own advantage and collaborations are only dependent on a single situation in one race - not permanent in every race.

You don't want to support fair races also in evening times?
Fine...

But don't put the pseudo fairplay fines for every small team attack, small word here and here.
I don't want to accept some players are treated better than others.
Just because there was some history between free and Italian teams or not.
It way out of control in evening races.

Close your eyes, discredit people who are fighting for fairplay...just do it.
But don't except any respect for the whole fairplay system anymore.

[scorpsche]

"Luques<14:47>: btw SWE, can you send me a PM, with all the list of italian teams colluding? Or just write clearly in the post, as sometimes seems there is one new, after disappear and so on, to keep things in order"

=> here in thread I originally accused the following 5 teams:
- Coroncina (Giro 23h, Savoie Mont Blanc 23h)
- Skype Italia (Giro 23h)
- Auximilium Torino (Sloveniji 24h, Savoie Mont Blanc 23h)
- VeloPiemonte (Sloveniji 24h)
- Ciclistica Astense (Savoie Mont Blanc 23h, at least 1 day sitted by Aux.)

Now a few months later there are two other teams:
- DORIA (I think 95% race together with Aux)
- Team Fedex (fairly new working together with Aux & DORIA)

-Coro actually rode much more fair since my post I believe.
TdF and Vuelta he came alone and took 2nd and 1st place in the gt's.
Still he did it in the past...

- Skype is rarely active but he was there to substitute DORIA on October 5.
- VeloPiemonte I never saw again
- Ciclistica Astense was also rarely active

[auxilium torino]

Allora, lo scrivo in italiano, poi chi vuole se lo traduce e se non lo capisce sono capperi suoi, tanto alla fine ognuno crede a cio`che vuole, quindi, in realta`questo e`tutto tempo perso a priori!

1 - Che sullo sprint seguo PTT non e`niente di nuovo, tutti lo sanno, e`una guerra privata tra me e lui, per cui, io sono liberissimo di seguirlo, lui non collabora, io lo seguo, per i vecchi giocatori, una cosa che si faceva normalmente ai (bei) tempi di BSE Marzhan...chi non collabora va seguito allo sprint!

2 - Ho due sprinter, ma non ho treno, ho provato un paio di volte a fare treno inziando con un 61 sprint, ma chiaramente contro un 80 91 91 non si hanno chance con il sistema di sprint adesso, specialmente se hai un aiuto in meno, visto che io faccio tempo mentre il piangina PTT non fa mai un cazzo a parte piangere che lui non e`mai favorito!

3 - siamo accusati di giocare la sera? lo abbiamo sempre fatto, dall' inzio dei tempi, io stesso ho litigato con mezzo mondo per avere gare alle 23 e 24,per cui discorso da scemi chiedere perche`corro a quell`ora!Piuttosto perche`chi ha tempo per scrivere 6 ore in chat non corre ad altri orari cosi non gli da fastidio chi in contra?perche`PTT si iscrive a tutti gli orari e poi cambia sempre alla fine? per rompere i coglioni e fare dispetti? beh. chi la fa la aspetti!

4 - si accusano 3 squadre sprinter di fare andatura per uno sprint? veramente,siamo a questo punto?...il punto non e`piuttosto perche`squadre con treni fortissimi non aiutano?

5 - lo stesso genio sopra mi accusa di tirare in tappe di tour dove vi erano 5 gare sprint ed una crono perche`non ho sprinter...ma scherziamo? ho il favorito per la GC, chiaro faccio andatura, me ne frego se lui sta davanti...poi siccome non funzionava con me, allora accusava quelli favoriti allo sprint di aiutare me....altro da capire? seriamente? capìsco che lui sia nuovo ( ormai non proprio nuovo ) , ma capire le basi del gioco?

6 - l`attacco dell altro giorno? beh, lo ho scritto in chat prima dell inzio della gara che volevo farlo e gli altri hanno fatto lo stesso...Doria, tra l`altro gia`da tempo se ce PTT non aiuta piu`molto, siccome il giorno prima il solito favorito non ha tirato un metro e poi ha vinto, la sera stessa qualcuno aveva gia`detto in chat che se c`era lui era meglio attaccare piuttosto che tirarselo di nuovo, e ok, non ci vedo niente di male...non collabora, tempo fa molti lo facevano contro un certo Chaos team, chi gioca da tempo se lo ricorda sicuro ...che giocava esattamente uguale al 100) come fa PTT, poi spari` chaos ed arrivo` PTT...coincidenze?

Poi vedere accuse di Alonso e guciuzuza? come??? guciuzuza si lamenta del tempo o non tempo di altri? Alonso pure, che quando ancora avevo Carlos correva uguale identico a guciuzuza?

Tra l`altro alcuni hanno il mio face privato (vero Kaju), magari prima di fare il moralista, uno specchio? e te lo dico da amico...

[auxilium torino]

Tra l`altro vorrei far fare due risate su una normale gara di MS con PTT

iniza con il chat, uno dei favoriti chiede a PTT se aiuta per lo sprint, che come sempre si tira fuori dicendo che lui non e÷ il favorito, bensi , ne fa un elenco...
Se quelli dell`elenco (fatto da PTT) tirano, ecco che esce il ritardato mentale subito parlando di collusione , di frode sportiva, di vergogna ed altro ...
Se qualcuno di quelli favoriti non tira, viene definito subito succhiatore da altri...

Se non si prendono quelliin fuga si viene definiti inetti ( di norma detto in altre parole, ma loro si possono permettersele, dette da me sono insulti, chiaramente )
Se si riprende la fuga, si viene definiti dei disperati deficenti che lavorano per altri...

Se si vince, chi vince deve ringraziare gli altri collusi che lo hanno aiutato...
Se non si vince, si e`tirato per altri, fatto lavoro sporco, collusi, mafiosi, etc. etc. ( come se in uno sprint arrivare secondi , terzi o quarti fosse qualcosa di anormale, specialmente con 6 o 7 team sprinter...

Se nel treno segui nessuno sei un idiota, se segui qualcuno sei in mala fede, se segui un italiano e`mafia, se non lo segui e`mafia, se segui un tedesco e`mafia, se segui un francese e`mafia...ma stiamo scherzando?

Ragionamento tipo di un cretino qualsiasi, se qualcuno si sente insultato, beh, allora ci si riconosce, e sa di essere in malafede

[olmania]

Please, edit your posts to make them understandable in the appropriate language of this part of the forum : English language.

[scorpsche]

Please, edit your posts to make them understandable in the appropriate language of this part of the forum : English language.

+1

[scorpsche]

I just would quickly like to pin what people said in the general chat today before it drops out and later on it doesn't count as evidence anymore.

The important point for me is that we have really a lots of independent sources which more or less direct confirming my observations/accusations.
I am aware of the fact that there is no single piece ("holy grail") which is one evidence to proof everything.
But FPC has to see that the sum of everything collected in thread plus all the voices can't be simply negated.

Before I post the interesting messages I would like to name the known players which were telling since long how the 7 named teams (or major part of them) behave: free, superdragoes, novi, rv berlin sued, los chicos, guilherme, ambition, "AGF" and myself ofc.

Now the statements from today:
"Team Alonso Cycle<14:37>: well, SWE is right, i noticed the strange work of coro and skype in giro as well!"
=> pretty direct, no further explanation needed
Let me add here also a post of Ide some time ago (so we have 4 independent sources for Giro 23h only(!)):
"Re: AGFBeitrag von Idéfix » Di Jun 19, 2018 12:25 ame.g. Doria launching sprints for Coro some months ago.e.g. Skype doing tempo several stages (even non-climbing stages) for Coro on last Giro (Coro had clearly 18 riders on that whole race, even if he didn't need that to win Giro easily with his monster team)e.g. Aux sometimes...But even when Leso is in the race, nothing has never been done^^Poké is right, best way is to fight those "unrealistic alliances" by fair alliances !"

"fantasticos<14:58>: see = swe
fantasticos<14:51>: see, tell me the teams too. I know a few too "
=> no direct statement but just read between the lines. Fanta if you read this, feel free to express your opinion

RS Coesitz<15:53>: @Luques: I normally play in the morning, the night is my second time to play if I´m not available in the morning. So I don´t make sooo much experiences with them. My opinion: there are too many strange things to call them accidently. Like last night: five trains, 1 italian team with both sprinters on my wheel, 1 italian team with both sprinters on frees wheel, 1 italian team with a train and without someone on the wheel. If those things happen one time, ok, but if there are strange things several times, for me it did not look accidently but that they agreed on it before. And to be honest: if I would not have watched Seahawks vs. Rams, I would have deregistered after I saw the teams and rather ride no race than with some guys working together anyway.
=> speaks for itself

Just to sum up: 13+ teams confirming the accusations more or less direct.
Additionally we have the race participations of the accused teams and the behavior in the races in 80% - 90% only in October.
May I quote Poke?
"Pokemonogatari<19:15>: when you see that in a flat race all italians teams attack km1 when they have 8 of the 10 best sprinters..."

What else is needed?
You really want people to track down every single race just to show what "everybody" (at least 80%+ of evening players) know already?
Shall I show how often esp. Aux + DORIA raced together in the last weeks / months?
Doing screenshots / videos in future races to show again the same story?

[scorpsche]

...oh and while writing and doing stuff the connection & free race is taking place.

Guess who is registered?
Ciclistica Astense, Skype Italia and Aux.

And guess who escaped?
Ok no surprise:

Km: 5, Gradient: -2
Antonio Williman (Auxilium Torino) attacks
Hossam Rayan (Skype Italia) follows
Carlos DeLeon (Auxilium Torino) attacks
Simone Garitta (Skype Italia) follows

Km: 4, Gradient: 0
Vitalis Chikoko (Ciclistica Astense) attacks
Ali Hüryilmaz (Ciclistica Astense) attacks

In the red for me it it is proof that there was an alignment.
I don't want to read here anymore about "oh what a coincidence, could be..."
No it cannot.
Magically 2 follows of the accused colluders?
Sorry but who really believe that?

[scorpsche]

Bildschirmfoto 2018-10-09 um 01.22.41.png (483.48 KiB) Viewed 7159 times

[auxilium torino]

E qui, sorpresa il chat della gara


Ciclistica Astense: ciao
Ciclistica Astense: domani altra corsa
Skype Italia: race chatt is totaly in german with same %
free team: but already with that sentence it is better than my ialian^^
Auxilium Torino: you play also bad, asti ...
Skype Italia: 3/4 italian
Ciclistica Astense: my english is bad
Auxilium Torino: yep
free team: btw you guys dont like english? i understand you prefer to speak your native language, but sometimes it could help
Auxilium Torino: i like about this...somebody in this game call me son of a bitch and more of then...you believe i open everytime a topic for this?
Auxilium Torino: o magari attaccavi un po prima e li stancavi di piu`e restava diana con loro
free team: well if you feel insulted open a thread, you should know the drill
Skype Italia: bell'attacco da cretino magari rimanevo davanti pure pure io
Auxilium Torino: Dumb
free team: scemo is like stupid, no?
Ciclistica Astense: thank you
Auxilium Torino: anpther scandal, Asti call me scemo, ban for 3 weeks
free team: thx, good p2 astense
Ciclistica Astense: quanto sei scemo, ma che ti sei bevuto?
Skype Italia: gw
Auxilium Torino: call SWE, nowª
Auxilium Torino: scandal, Asti ride for PTT, and PTT ride for Asti...let go in forum
Auxilium Torino: io che ne so
Auxilium Torino: prima
Auxilium Torino: allora dilloo rpima
Skype Italia: diana lì a 1 secondo...poteva far comodo
Auxilium Torino: proviamo+
Auxilium Torino: metti colzi
Auxilium Torino: gw
Skype Italia: ci prende prima del 7
Auxilium Torino: 4 flat riders
Auxilium Torino: why not follow free?
Auxilium Torino: per vedere
Auxilium Torino: togli un paio di km il 70 dal 184
Auxilium Torino: but nothing against what happens here in mexico
Auxilium Torino: yes, mafia is the big shit in italy
Auxilium Torino: Mafia?
free team: why do you use a word you dislike so much?
Auxilium Torino: we trink the same italian water..is probably also a mafia proof
free team: every italian team doing something with another italian team is proof for him^^
Auxilium Torino: umbelieveble, SWE still thinking that to say that more sprinter teams working togheter for an MS is a proof for an unfair action...is really so stupid?
Auxilium Torino: il meglio il nostro Salvini che da degli ubriaconi ai politici europei jajajjaja
Ciclistica Astense: hahaha, bella questa, belin
Skype Italia: nì strunz co core non si nega a nessuno
Auxilium Torino: se vuoi vai in forum, ti ho insultato jajja
Skype Italia: occhio al 7 se mi lasciate a piedi tiro in gruppo
Auxilium Torino: muoviti, un fa lo strunz
Skype Italia: no vitalis no party
Auxilium Torino: rossen
Ciclistica Astense: okk
Auxilium Torino: come muore vitalis spingiamo a palla
Auxilium Torino: blue
Auxilium Torino: andiamo in 4
Auxilium Torino: ok
Skype Italia: io mio bollito è stracotto non se conviene aspettarlo
Skype Italia: ok
Auxilium Torino: sul 7 mettiamo verde
Auxilium Torino: svegliaaaaa
Auxilium Torino: weeeeeeeeee
Auxilium Torino: hai gia strasucchiato
Auxilium Torino: mo entra pero
Skype Italia: ma che è sempre on-line ?
Auxilium Torino: meglio adesso, che rallenteresti
Skype Italia: iopoi avrei succhiato alla fiine
Auxilium Torino: comunque, la stupidita`umana non ha limiti...perdere un giorno intero per un gioco come fa qualcuno per andare a trovare possibili connessioni astrali jajaja
Auxilium Torino: entra un po dopo
Auxilium Torino: skype, tu aspetta 10 km
Skype Italia: va bene
Ciclistica Astense: andiamo con i freschi?
Auxilium Torino: tempo perso...mi spiace dirlo, ma il tipo e`proprio fuso
Auxilium Torino: jajajajajajjaja
Skype Italia: mi ero perso in forum
Auxilium Torino: skype??
Auxilium Torino: ?
Auxilium Torino: ´ci sei+
Auxilium Torino: vai rosso va
Auxilium Torino: accellera che ci freni
Auxilium Torino: o forse il real paga perche`escano
Skype Italia: forse al Real era meno attaccabile
Skype Italia: si ma che escano ora che è in italia un po' mi fa pensare
Auxilium Torino: puttane si chiamano
Auxilium Torino: hanno visto i soldoni e ne vogliono una parte
Skype Italia: sarà un caso?
Skype Italia: ma questo ronaldo? ora che non è al real cominciano tutti ad andargli contro
Ciclistica Astense: si, grazie
Auxilium Torino: asti, tutto ok?
Auxilium Torino: vabbo, il beghelli gia`lo vinsi una volta, poi cat. 3 , pensaimo ai picci
Skype Italia: di solito parti con quelli con reg
Auxilium Torino: in forum, subito
Auxilium Torino: jajaajajja
Skype Italia: mi son detto questo sicuro parte e così ti ho marcato con tutti
Auxilium Torino: tienilo blue va
Skype Italia: che ne so te con chi attacchi
Auxilium Torino: piu`scarsi no?
Auxilium Torino: 68 pianura?
Auxilium Torino: bella merdamerda di ciclisti mandi+
Auxilium Torino: i have a good day to read all the chat... still smile to now
free team: but i surely understand where his frustation comes from
free team: well i agree that he is taking it a few steps too far
Auxilium Torino: i am ever in funny mode ...But funny like SWE is impossible...
free team: in funny mode today aux?
Auxilium Torino: bah, proviamo, cosi mesi, basilio puo fa bene
Auxilium Torino: o merda, ho insultato il coro...scandalo, ora minimo in forum due topic nuovi
Auxilium Torino: coglionazzo di coro
Auxilium Torino: lascia perdere, se sapevo0 che era cosi, puntavo a fare gara un po piu÷ dura, poche spese potevo permettermi di meglio e cercare top ten
Skype Italia: ma quel pesce dove cazzo è andato? oggi vinceva facile
Auxilium Torino: scandal, call swe, that can write in forum next chapter of italian mafia
free team: no coro and CC
free team: huhu

[fantasticos]

well it looks like the evening is a alliance from Italian teams against ptt
But it's nothing new tbh, just a never ending love story

[auxilium torino]

Kaju, from you some shit i don`t expect it...from SWE i can understand, and some others, but not from you