cycling4freaks.com

Posted: **Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:44 am**

lesossies wrote:The rules are clear.

But what is it for a rule, if I dont have the possibility to control it ?

The IP-Control is not the right tool for this.
The FC could maybe be the right instrument but it is a very complicate one, and our doesn´t seem to work the best way.

It means that we should think about the right way, but ... in another thread.

Posted: **Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:36 pm**

Allagen wrote:
lesossies wrote:The rules are clear.

But what is it for a rule, if I dont have the possibility to control it ?

The IP-Control is not the right tool for this.
The FC could maybe be the right instrument but it is a very complicate one, and our doesn´t seem to work the best way.

It means that we should think about the right way, but ... in another thread.

I think we can do some things to prevent and to detect

To prevent

Why people in a free game do multi account? I have two answers, but i think some experts here can add some more:

1) Bypass the 10 race/month, with 3 accounts I have 30 races i can play all month
The solution is not so easy but we can build some free races that maybe don't give points but only money or give points but not money (this because i think that if someone pays for the license it is right to have some benfits.)

2) Build specialized teams to be competitive in every race
This is quite difficult to solve... I remember that there was the same problem in a browser game (YRM), people build more teams because they have some economical and car advantages (was a F1 manager); the solution they adopt was to reset all teams at the end of the season (every 2-3 months), reset the drivers, the cars and the money, so at the beginning of the new season all was equalized but i think that all First Division teams don't want this (and i understand them). For that game this was a solution but there are many problems to do this here.

To detect

IP + login time control in some cases for me can be a solution and it is pretty easy to develop.
...Don't know what is FC...
We can also build a survey to say if one rider is a multi or not if he is suspected (a survey or a tribunal this is the concept, the community decides)

-------------

The battle against multi is really tough (many web sites have the same problem), i think that all we can do is make their costs higher than their benefits, make their life little bit harder, i think they will give up... this is a free game, no prizes so no much interest only for fun, they will get tired.

These are some ideas, maybe already discussed maybe something new.

P.S. I know i am a noob compared to many users here, just want to take my experience also from other games... and also don't like how this multi-problem ruins the atmosphere in chat during races

Posted: **Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:24 pm**

Everything regarding IP, login time ect can easily be bypassed with today's technology. Even if the same IP, login times are similar. You can't prove, that the logout and login was done by the same person.

Therefore, to be honest, I don't see a solution, which would not include personal identification. I.e. passport copies or webcam use. But how many would play this game if we had such a rigid identification?

Posted: **Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:02 pm**

glasgowracing wrote: Therefore, to be honest, I don't see a solution, which would not include personal identification. I.e. passport copies or webcam use. But how many would play this game if we had such a rigid identification?

We would only need that if we have the serious suspicion of a multi.

Posted: **Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:29 pm**

Therefore, to be honest, I don't see a solution, which would not include personal identification. I.e. passport copies or webcam use. But how many would play this game if we had such a rigid identification?

We would only need that if we have the serious suspicion of a multi.

In both cases, webcam or passport copies, u easily can invite a friend or take his passport, and after that never worry again about beeing detected.

Posted: **Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:45 am**

put again the -100k rules can be a first step

Posted: **Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:55 pm**

Avaya wrote:
Therefore, to be honest, I don't see a solution, which would not include personal identification. I.e. passport copies or webcam use. But how many would play this game if we had such a rigid identification?

We would only need that if we have the serious suspicion of a multi.
In both cases, webcam or passport copies, u easily can invite a friend or take his passport, and after that never worry again about beeing detected.

Well, than it's at least embarassing for the person:"hey bro, can I borrow your passport? i need it that my internet-community doesn't know I have 2 teams so I can play 4 hours a day instead of only 2.
And I would prefer a picture anyway with the teamname written on a paper.

Posted: **Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:55 pm**

Quick wrote:
Avaya wrote:
Therefore, to be honest, I don't see a solution, which would not include personal identification. I.e. passport copies or webcam use. But how many would play this game if we had such a rigid identification?

We would only need that if we have the serious suspicion of a multi.
In both cases, webcam or passport copies, u easily can invite a friend or take his passport, and after that never worry again about beeing detected.
Well, than it's at least embarassing for the person:"hey bro, can I borrow your passport? i need it that my internet-community doesn't know I have 2 teams so I can play 4 hours a day instead of only 2.
And I would prefer a picture anyway with the teamname written on a paper.

The problem is that if we use this system on inscription no one will register, if we use this for a suspected multi we arrive late... when one is suspected to be a multi is already "under investigation", the problem imo is how to find them before possible.

We can use a trust system based on a rigid identification, those who want can send the passport to the admin and can be verified and set as a trusted team which gives you some benefits instead of a non-trusted team.
Can be the passport or something else.

Posted: **Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:10 pm**

There is no way i would send such a info to admins, no offense but you are overreacting imo. Also I bought rsf license so I guess I can be trusted right? If I would have 2nd account it would have to be a free account or I it has to be payed from other paypal account.

Limitations for users who will not send such data, lol. I am fair, i have one account but I don't want to send anyone such a info so I will be punished, rly?

Posted: **Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:08 pm**

Radomiak wrote:There is no way i would send such a info to admins, no offense but you are overreacting imo. Also I bought rsf license so I guess I can be trusted right? If I would have 2nd account it would have to be a free account or I it has to be payed from other paypal account.

Limitations for users who will not send such data, lol. I am fair, i have one account but I don't want to send anyone such a info so I will be punished, rly?

100% agree, Rado.

Posted: **Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:22 pm**

luques wrote: To prevent

Why people in a free game do multi account? I have two answers, but i think some experts here can add some more:

1) Bypass the 10 race/month, with 3 accounts I have 30 races i can play all month
The solution is not so easy but we can build some free races that maybe don't give points but only money or give points but not money (this because i think that if someone pays for the license it is right to have some benfits.)

2) Build specialized teams to be competitive in every race
This is quite difficult to solve... I remember that there was the same problem in a browser game (YRM), people build more teams because they have some economical and car advantages (was a F1 manager); the solution they adopt was to reset all teams at the end of the season (every 2-3 months), reset the drivers, the cars and the money, so at the beginning of the new season all was equalized but i think that all First Division teams don't want this (and i understand them). For that game this was a solution but there are many problems to do this here.

I like your thinking.
With the 10 race/month thing, either Buhmann could give free users more races (15-20, to decrease the incentive to make several accounts), or less races which would force them to make even more accounts (when you need everytime a new email adress it's still annoying to do, imo).
But in this frame, there is not much else to do.
Maybe it should be a bit larger, for example free users cannot ride more than 5 races per month and cannot buy more than 10 riders and cannot pay more than 100% of a rider's prize... Or give every new user 30-50 racepoints and no timelimit at all, and then no more free races (or 5 per month). Well I don't know about this one, but we also have to think of the main objectives (recruit new players, give them the possibility to try, and then have them to pay for it!)
You can also imagine 2 types of paying users (free for starters, then a cheap AND a more expensive version, but no real free possibility anymore).

And give us back the trackraces, for people who have nothing else to do during their days and are now forced to make multiple accounts to stay busy !

Posted: **Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:39 pm**

Easiest solution = Multi suspect? - ok, ban both teams! Unban when proof is brought(any proof) that there are no multis.

Right now Leso/buhmann ban not on suspicion and as everyone can say "oh, that's my brother" we never have proof and this game is multifree. Juhe!

Posted: **Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:38 pm**

NoPikouze wrote:
I like your thinking.
With the 10 race/month thing, either Buhmann could give free users more races (15-20, to decrease the incentive to make several accounts), or less races which would force them to make even more accounts (when you need everytime a new email adress it's still annoying to do, imo).
But in this frame, there is not much else to do.
Maybe it should be a bit larger, for example free users cannot ride more than 5 races per month and cannot buy more than 10 riders and cannot pay more than 100% of a rider's prize... Or give every new user 30-50 racepoints and no timelimit at all, and then no more free races (or 5 per month). Well I don't know about this one, but we also have to think of the main objectives (recruit new players, give them the possibility to try, and then have them to pay for it!)
You can also imagine 2 types of paying users (free for starters, then a cheap AND a more expensive version, but no real free possibility anymore).

And give us back the trackraces, for people who have nothing else to do during their days and are now forced to make multiple accounts to stay busy !

We can do less race points but maybe increase those races that cost 0 race points (now is max 1 per day) especially if there is a day that has multiple single races and stage races so that who plays a single race can have more opponents (for example in May there will be the Giro and other tours and one day races, i think that many of these will have only 4-5 opponents, build a system that set cost to 0 based on the number of participants).

NoPikouze wrote: which would force them to make even more accounts (when you need everytime a new email adress it's still annoying to do, imo

This is exactly what i mean, if we can't find them just make their life more hard as a multi.

@radomiak: the passport obviously was taken just for example as i said, in the website there is already a trust system (or something like this) and it is the votes/fair play page, but i don't think that fair play points are much considered (also because some managers abuse of it). We can also define a trusted team as someone who has more than x fair play points, but need to use this page wisely.

I never talked about limitations if you read my statement, i talked about benefits. In many web sites there are benefits for those members who do something to improve the quality of the website (for example: vote the website in this other site and you get money, tell a friend and you get points and so on), this is not a punishment for others but a prize for those people who improve the community experience.

Posted: **Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:54 pm**

Triple the fee for playing the game and playing without paying is not possible.

Posted: **Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:38 pm**

Webcam: I actually meant webcam active during every race. Would rule out mobile play. So it's impossible.
Passport was more or less a joke, not many would be prepared to share such information, just to play an online game.

Number of races for non-paying users:
Increase free races - why would anyone pay? Ok, maybe to take part in large tours, but that would still leave pretty much all other races as "multi-problematic".
Decrease free races - I have about 12 email adresses that I can use and it takes me aboout 2 minutes to set up another one. This would solve anything, might even make it worse, cause more teams = more riders are purchased.

by skull » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:54 pm
Triple the fee for playing the game and playing without paying is not possible.
That might be a solution. Maybe with an addition, that non-paying users can ride non-ranked races to test the game.

Posted: **Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:59 pm**

Quick wrote:
Avaya wrote:
Therefore, to be honest, I don't see a solution, which would not include personal identification. I.e. passport copies or webcam use. But how many would play this game if we had such a rigid identification?

We would only need that if we have the serious suspicion of a multi.
In both cases, webcam or passport copies, u easily can invite a friend or take his passport, and after that never worry again about beeing detected.
Well, than it's at least embarassing for the person:"hey bro, can I borrow your passport? i need it that my internet-community doesn't know I have 2 teams so I can play 4 hours a day instead of only 2.
And I would prefer a picture anyway with the teamname written on a paper.

It's easy, hand a sheet with a teamname on it to your father, mother, brother, sister, friend. They don't need to know why. You'll find someone you can photograph.
You can't so easily find people who lend you their IDs. Although, it would take me about 5 minutes to obtain the IDs of my housemates. 2 more accounts done quickly.
So I wouldn't be sure, that people on pictures actually play the game themselves.

Posted: **Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:53 am**

Well the rsf license can be also redone. It's fine that buh wants some money to make this game work, I am 100% ok with that. But he can charge people for something else then races. Imo every account should have unlimited amount of races(maybe limit only for most important races? like 5-6 cat, but prefer not).

What rsf license would give? With it you will can:
- edit your team jerseys(by default make some ugly one

),
- edit your team logo(higher quality need),
- turn off adverts,
- implement function which i gave in other topic viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3624 :
-- add newses of team, extend profiles of a teams,
-- add description to your team,
-- add description to your riders.
Limits for non rsf-license users:
- can only bet on transfer list if rider has already the prize less than 150% of his value(more checking of transfers list for free users+ they have to remember when they can bet for rider),
- limit of riders in a team(for example 12),
- can't see progress of training in rider info,

These limits will make game very fair for both free and rsf license users and imo there will be no point in making multies.

Posted: **Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:12 am**

Cat 5-6 races/tours only for Div (1-5) teams + no up-training for Div (6-7) + no young market on div 6 can be an idea. It can't stop teams to create multis, but it can stop some farmer teams I think

Posted: **Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:16 am**

Well the rsf license can be also redone. It's fine that buh wants some money to make this game work, I am 100% ok with that. But he can charge people for something else then races. Imo every account should have unlimited amount of races(maybe limit only for most important races? like 5-6 cat, but prefer not).

What rsf license would give? With it you will can:
- edit your team jerseys(by default make some ugly one ),
- edit your team logo(higher quality need),
- turn off adverts,
- implement function which i gave in other topic viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3624 :
-- add newses of team, extend profiles of a teams,
-- add description to your team,
-- add description to your riders.
Limits for non rsf-license users:
- can only bet on transfer list if rider has already the prize less than 150% of his value(more checking of transfers list for free users+ they have to remember when they can bet for rider),
- limit of riders in a team(for example 12),
- can't see progress of training in rider info,

These limits will make game very fair for both free and rsf license users and imo there will be no point in making multies.

Sounds good, but I'd also limit the amount of youth riders in this teams. Because the typical Multi Team buy 3-4 Strong Youth riders, and then fill the team up with cheap other riders. Maybe only 1x 21y, 1x 22y, 1x 23y. New Teams normally don't buy youth riders so early, and when they do, they won't buy 2-3. So they still can buy some youth riders every Season. And if they like the game and want to be more "competetive", they can buy the RSF-License.
Of course Multi Teams can/will also buy the License, but so they have to buy it 2, 3 or 4 times, and also from different Bank/Paypal Accounts. And in the end, it may not really solve the Multi Problem they way we want, but it will help Buhmann to gain more Money. And some Multis will dissappear, or won't be so annoying as they are at the moment.

Posted: **Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:12 pm**

Well the rsf license can be also redone. It's fine that buh wants some money to make this game work, I am 100% ok with that. But he can charge people for something else then races. Imo every account should have unlimited amount of races(maybe limit only for most important races? like 5-6 cat, but prefer not).

What rsf license would give? With it you will can:
- edit your team jerseys(by default make some ugly one ),
- edit your team logo(higher quality need),
- turn off adverts,
- implement function which i gave in other topic viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3624 :
-- add newses of team, extend profiles of a teams,
-- add description to your team,
-- add description to your riders.
Limits for non rsf-license users:
- can only bet on transfer list if rider has already the prize less than 150% of his value(more checking of transfers list for free users+ they have to remember when they can bet for rider),
- limit of riders in a team(for example 12),
- can't see progress of training in rider info,

These limits will make game very fair for both free and rsf license users and imo there will be no point in making multies.

So the result is to give more benefits to paying users and discourage multi, can work!
But I think we have to set all the benefits that gives you the license.
(At the moment there is no adv also for free users and this is quite simple to do)

If a user wants to pay 2, 3 or more times and open more paypal account just to be a multi, is ok it gives more money to the creator and this can only be good for the game...

The price: i think that the actual is right (or new users will go to other games, rsf license is half the price of PCM).

Posted: **Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:35 pm**

After some thinking, I feel the current price to play this game should not be increased. It would become unattractive if more expensive.

Non-paying accounts could maybe indeed be disallowed from moving to higher divisions, also I like the idea of harder youth rider limits for non-paying accounts.

Posted: **Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:49 pm**

glasgowracing wrote: I like the idea of harder youth rider limits for non-paying accounts.

I like it too.

Posted: **Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:07 pm**

Posted: **Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:21 pm**

No race limit, except tours and monuments, but make life harder to get training results and buy youth riders for non.paying teams.
Would it make sense to have 0 youth riders for non-paying teams? Probably this would be too hard I guess?

Also we have (farm? multi?) teams which only participate for a couple of races. I.e during the pave-season or for time-trials.
Would it make sense to reduce the training efficiency factor, if an account has not been logged into to confirm training or even if the team doesn't ride (inscribe for races, but being offline doesn't count as riding)?

Maybe even harder offline rules during races?

Active non-paying teams should have the same opportunity to win as paying accounts. But the effort for loggin in, inscribung, making sure riders train and so on should be more time consuming. This would make is less attractive to create multiple accounts.

Posted: **Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:06 pm**

Youthmarcet ONLY for paying users. Give non paying accounts all races under kat 4 maybe 5. That should do it.

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