Ambition/Brio, planning an attack in German in race chat

Discussion about fairness-stuff. Advices of breach of rules and so on.

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RainerT
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Re: Ambition/Brio, planning an attack in German in race chat

Post by RainerT » Mon May 29, 2017 2:51 am

bah… you are talking all races/tours almost french only. and you are also talking about races stuff, its not about soccer or gardening. it makes tours really boring and disrespectful. i want to be able to read all you say about the race – if about recent stages, following stages, about strategies and tactics other teams can theoretically use, whatever.
"The only thing is: don't talk about strategy, about the race happening or INCOMING kms."
i dont translate the stuff you write, its just so much. i was talking to brio about obvious stuff like about an attack that should –if happened – have happened a km minutes ago (km 153; i wrote that later, around km 160). and i never knew which team will attack, it was obvious that if brio rides for ms, there gonna be a ms and if theres an attack, it has to be brio himself to be successful. and i never talked about which riders, at which km, i just said that i set my wheels to follow (in general). i also didnt say that i gonna attack and brio should hang (what idefix wrote in chat; well… google translate maybe?), i just said if i was brio, "i would have tried and see who is following, but km 153 or somthing like that" (i wrote it around km 160).
and that you talk about which races to take part, about your riders etc. with other teams and your possibilities and possible cooperations, is normal and not forbidden, or is it? many do eg. in race chat in a race before ("are you gonna start here and there"?), in main chat (eg. in french), icq, whatever (facebook i took just as pars pro toto) etc.. i just take into account that nations and friends are likely to support each other if they can choose. everything else would be naive. if it makes you happy i excuse myself for writing "facebook". i should have written in general chat, or maybe in forums, or somewhere else.

your attitude is bad. talking a quite inexperienced manager into tempo, telling him there is gonna be a sprint he got to work for althought i give the hint that there will be no sprint, there will be a sieb and he should spare his strength and let favos work. althought you know that you and rfm gonna sieb (rfm said hes not riding for sprint anymore), thats disgusting imho. and you do it frequently. but thats another topic than the one discussed here.

imo fpk hasnt to be called for every small topic that happens every day. however... they decide.

Alster
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Re: Ambition/Brio, planning an attack in German in race chat

Post by Alster » Mon May 29, 2017 8:58 am

I think in a real race it can be happend that two italian guys speaks about tactic and the german guy on their side understand nothing... is that unfair? The problem exist till more then one nation plays the game... so all must speak english? Some guys can't speak english... and then? You should take this case in the section "not very nice", but not in the fairplay section.

luques
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Re: Ambition/Brio, planning an attack in German in race chat

Post by luques » Mon May 29, 2017 11:05 am

I don't know the exact translation of those phrases. Doesn't seem to me anyway that there is an unreal agreement.

Seems to me that Ide is "bored" that ambi often criticize others to make agreements and then he does the same. But nothing really unfair according to rules.

RainerT
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Re: Ambition/Brio, planning an attack in German in race chat

Post by RainerT » Tue May 30, 2017 12:05 am

Idéfix wrote:Edit: also "bored" about his position "I want to help newbies" giving them advice without good arguments and trying to make understand "all other advices are shit". You feel superior in your advices and your moral, Ambition, but don't lack of respect to others advices (and I don't talk about my advices, I gave no advice during this race, it's about RFM' ones^^)
stage 1 (flat): avesa makes a trick-sprint other teams without trains that blocked etc. were fucked by the tricksprint. rfm (whi actually planned to go for green) reacts saying stage 2-5 no sprint anymore with him (he had strongest sprinter).
stage 2 (with a +8/paves 5 not far from finish): only i escape (the one with least chances for gc) with unimportant riders, avesa doing tempo from the start and making work for gc- (amorique) and stage-favos (rfm/idefix). i told avesa that this stage is not for sprinters, but for gc and classics and that he aint got a real chance to win it, he should spare his strength and let gc-favo controll and later stage-favos work etc.. idefix tells him to continue tempo. avesa makes tempo as told (hes already well trained by idefix) till around mid of stage and then he goes offline (he told stage 1 that he cant stay till end of stage 2 moreover!!!)… ;)
idefix won stage and made an important step to green jersey. thats manipulating newbies at its worst. avesa ended nowhere that stage and he played no role in gc or sprint-classification (which was won by idefix). isn't that enough proof, that i was right with what i told avesa? he was simply not riding beneficiary for his team and idefix supported it – again. thats disgusting manipulative bahaviour and worse than what you accuse me and brio for.
Last edited by RainerT on Tue May 30, 2017 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

luques
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Re: Ambition/Brio, planning an attack in German in race chat

Post by luques » Tue May 30, 2017 12:19 am

Avesa is the newbie?

He has won 47races and 22 tours. More than many other in that field. So I wouldn't call that newbie manipulation.

In any case it seems to me that this case is more related to different perceptions of the game.

RainerT
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Re: Ambition/Brio, planning an attack in German in race chat

Post by RainerT » Tue May 30, 2017 12:26 am

luques wrote:Avesa is the newbie?

He has won 47races and 22 tours. More than many other in that field. So I wouldn't call that newbie manipulation.

In any case it seems to me that this case is more related to different perceptions of the game.
sure, perception of rules is different. and you are right. avesa got around 450 races (he had a long brake and came back; lot of stuff changed at rsf in the meantime). but that doesnt make it better… so better dont call it manipulation but conscious collaboration without benefit for one team. hence i blame not only idefix for manipulating avesa, but avesa for supporting and riding for other teams by no means beneficiary to his own team. theres a rule and if it doesnt cover riding like that, what is it made for?
tours are very boring if non-favos do most of work even at stages they aint got a chance to win (eg. cause they are leaving at mid-stage without sitter ;)). imho its one of the main reasons why tours are getting more and more boring and managers are getting less interested.

RainerT
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Re: Ambition/Brio, planning an attack in German in race chat

Post by RainerT » Tue May 30, 2017 2:15 pm

Idéfix wrote: Yes for Ambition, Avesa is a newbie and needs to be helped by a great moral manager!
I dont care if avesa is a manager that came back recently after long break for years, or if hes used to the new system. i just care about fair races. its not only connected to ethics, but also to fun playing.
Idéfix wrote:Anyway you continue to say wrong things without proof, Ambi. In your description of stage 2:
- Armo was not gc favo because of his climbskill
favo for gc was amorique and if oyou need a proof: he won gc. but what was clear: avesa was neither favo for gc nor favo for stage and he worked, i told him to let favos work, you argued against me and won the stage…
Idéfix wrote:- Hill was not close to finish, but more than 30 km to go (and those km were full flat), other races of morning and afternoon finished with sprint. Anyway also peloton lost because tempo was stopped 1 km after the hill.
it was obvious that there is not going to be a ms. rfm, the team with the strongest sprinter said hes not going to go for ms anymore, his sitter (seibu) stated beginning of stage 2 that he got the duty not to ride for ms. avesa for sure would have been siebed anyway by other teams with sprinters too (brio and me, and we did). noone wants to work and coop with someone that comes without blockers and then fucks you with a trick-sprint. morover you and rfm had riders strong enough to stay in front after the big sieb. i dont blame you that you didnt see the obvious, but its still no excuse for avesas tempo. avesa told that he is going to leave stage 2 without sitter around midstage (he told end of stage 1 hes not going to be here at stage 2 in the end). he left before the sieb and before many IS to come (no chance to make settings for final sprint).
Idéfix wrote:- I did not say anything to Avesa to force him to work. You should have copy racechat, but its easy for you to say false things now...
you know the race chat is not online for us anymore. if fpk wants it, i can reread and proove that you encouraged (i never wrote forced) avesa to continue tempo and all i said about the development of the race.
Idéfix wrote:Anyway, Luques, indeed perception is different. But Ambi turns this case in that sense. It was not the initial fair-play question, that was:
"Is it OK to talk about strategy for the next kms in another language that only few teams can understand?"
You say it is OK. I'm waiting for a FPC validation of this - or should I take your answer for validation.
i explain how it happened that german speaking teams felt excluded and decided to talk german. we can make another fairplay-thread to that riding to distinguish between those two cases, but its not new, fpk already made clear that it is very very liberal if it comes to the rule about riding beneficiary for own team. and be grateful that they are, or many of us had to be be punished for unrealistic riding beneficiary to others, not speaking english (eg. italians without english skills), using bad words etc..

Alster
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Re: Ambition/Brio, planning an attack in German in race chat

Post by Alster » Tue May 30, 2017 8:30 pm

Maybe you should discuss this via PN, it looks more like a personal theme between you two and not like a game relevant theme.^^

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Pokemon Club
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Re: Ambition/Brio, planning an attack in German in race chat

Post by Pokemon Club » Tue May 30, 2017 8:58 pm

Idéfix wrote:
RainerT wrote:i just care about fair races.
haha and for that, you obviously let understand in German that you will attack and invite Brio to take your wheel.
RainerT wrote:favo for gc was amorique and if oyou need a proof: he won gc
Armo finished with p6 at GC. Do you have shit in the eyes, or you say another wrong argument just to be right?
RainerT wrote:i explain how it happened that german speaking teams felt excluded and decided to talk german. we can make another fairplay-thread to that riding to distinguish between those two cases, but its not new, fpk already made clear that it is very very liberal if it comes to the rule about riding beneficiary for own team. and be grateful that they are, or many of us had to be be punished for unrealistic riding beneficiary to others, not speaking english (eg. italians without english skills), using bad words etc..
I never complain when I'm in a race with few French and lots of German if they talk in German. It's their right, I respect they talk in their language if it's better for them. If they don't plan attacks this way, it's OK for me.
Anyway I talk 90% of time in English in races, but sometimes when others talk to me in French, I think it's more respectful to answer in the language people talk to you. (we already had that discussion, I know you disagree)
Whatever your opinion is, it is not a reason for being unfair and talking strategy in German.
Well I don't understand this "let's all talk in english to do strategy". Where is the sense to do strategies if it is to explain it at all people ? Where is the point for people to talk in english to explain they will attack in X km with rider Y when a lot of people can do that on FB/Skype/PM. Does this really change your race, really ?

RainerT
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Re: Ambition/Brio, planning an attack in German in race chat

Post by RainerT » Tue May 30, 2017 10:47 pm

Alster wrote:Maybe you should discuss this via PN, it looks more like a personal theme between you two and not like a game relevant theme.^^
yep, indeed it is. i didnt need that discussion, but idefix opened a thread. he would love to call me a cheater from now on officially. make a decision and close the thread pls. now all my "fans" come here to give their opinion, but without new facts ;)
Idéfix wrote:haha and for that, you obviously let understand in German that you will attack and invite Brio to take your wheel.
no, AGAIN: i wrote that if i was brio "i would have tried (an attack) and see who follows, but (i would have tried it) km 153 already" (i wrote that around km 160; check the time code). i already translated it to you, but you stick to your preferred version – wherever you got it. and btw: brio later attacked, not me. i explained why brios wheel were only wheels which make sense to follow. if he wants ms, he achieves it, if not, he attacks… it was obvious.
"Ambition: aber bereits 153 oder so
Ambition: ich hätts probiert und gesehen, wer mitgeht"
Idéfix wrote:Armo finished with p6 at GC. Do you have shit in the eyes, or you say another wrong argument just to be right?
i meant velo, but however. name is irrelevant since its not relevant for what avesa did with support by you. just replace amorique with velo, same story. and dont use bad words pls, or i got to open another fpk-kindergarden-thread ;)
Pokemon Club wrote:Where is the point for people to talk in english to explain they will attack in X km with rider Y when a lot of people can do that on FB/Skype/PM. Does this really change your race, really ?"
i agree. some rules were created in the past millennium and many ppl are connected somehow nowadays. you cant deny that fact and have to adapt the rules to be practically executable or withdraw them, if its not possible to execute em. eg. fairplay- (riding should be allowed like fpk already often decided: everybody can ride as he wants).

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Re: Ambition/Brio, planning an attack in German in race chat

Post by NicoVanarlo » Wed May 31, 2017 3:43 pm

Delete the chat.
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