Team attack from our biggest friend Adler :)

[IDF]

Km: 173, Dénivellé: 4
TamatiWaka Nene (Tulpengeneral) Attaque au km
Mohamad YazidbinZaini (Tulpengeneral) Attaque au km
Otto Pilotov (RideforMoney) s´echappe avec
AddyWaku Menga (Tulpengeneral) Attaque au km
Elmer Hermosa (BGerolsteinerL) s´echappe avec
Kairat Aschirbekow (Freudenfeuer) s´echappe avec
Luckyboy Mokoena (Tulpengeneral) n´arrive pas à s´echapper avec
Arjun Depadesh (RideforMoney) s´echappe avec
Carlo Manara (Zugspitze) s´echappe avec
Don Raciones (Team Armorique) s´echappe avec
Assan Tachtachunow (Freudenfeuer) s´echappe avec
Dieter Dorsch (Zugspitze) s´echappe avec
Carlos Alarcon (BGerolsteinerL) s´echappe avec

Length of the race : 195 km

195-173 = 22.

According to OL (my sitter), this " team attack " is correct because onf of his 3 guys were in another group just behind the main group. But we should consider that like a team attack or not? The problem is that attack had decided the tour.. the group won ( or the german conspiration via skype won ) with 1 mn over my boys. I didn't care very much about the final result but playing like that is just .. playing like a .. oh shit can't say the word but it's clear.


So, team attack or not?
Ah yes and don't forget the german conspiration " all against x " . It's just a game but these boys playing like their life was in danger.. ahah.

"RideforMoney: well ... ok ... you play with rule, but the spirit ... was a team attack." (OL)
"RideforMoney: I did not expect such triple attack on 4% ... was waiting for Nene to not fight stupidly 3kms that he comes back ... but you triple attack ... ok, weird, unexpected and not really fair (team attack spirit)." (always OL)

[IDF]

And yes , look

AddyWaku Menga (Tulpengeneral) Attaque au km
Elmer Hermosa (BGerolsteinerL) s´echappe avec
Kairat Aschirbekow (Freudenfeuer) s´echappe avec
Luckyboy Mokoena (Tulpengeneral) n´arrive pas à s´echapper avec
Arjun Depadesh (RideforMoney) s´echappe avec
Carlo Manara (Zugspitze) s´echappe avec
Don Raciones (Team Armorique) s´echappe avec
Assan Tachtachunow (Freudenfeuer) s´echappe avec
Dieter Dorsch (Zugspitze) s´echappe avec
Carlos Alarcon (BGerolsteinerL) s´echappe avec

on a 4% at 22kms from the end

Thx ICQ/Skype.

[Hansa]

If they dont were in the same group its no team attack according to the rule

[Rastaman]

However the funny side of this is if another team do this, they will be the first one to whine about .
Also you hansa

[Eagle]

The funny side is, rfm attacks me the whole tour, because i don't ride for him. I ride always on my own.
The second funny part is, that all rider in this group were hanging at each other, only Luka doesn't hang there, so its his own fault if he doesn't hang or doesn't do tempo. I did nothing against the rules and this attack is like every other attack easy to block ! If you are doing mistakes don't tell the others are tho one who are doing them.

[IDF]

"The funny side is, rfm attacks me the whole tour, because i don't ride for him." Everyrace , i've some people against me and you saw me post a topic against x or y because that? No. Because their ride for their interests , in order to try to win and not just riding for fuck someone else.


Nono , just because you ride like a idiot. With 1800 races.. quite bad. Stage 2 : parasit win , hmm ok bad but we thought that Luka was stronger.. so .. angry during some mn but it's nothing , it happens sometimes.

But in overall , always the same thing " ohoh i'm no favo , i'll go in escape ".. with a guy who is in front of me and too good as Luka on this tour + the same tricky thing " gogo i'll follow my friend everytime in order to fuck rfm "

And i'm not alone to think that... But ok if you're happy by that.

Ah yes , you'll said that i'm favo today for GK?

[Eagle]

Yeah everytime one team attack, he only attacks to to be against you. Thats sounds like the only reason you have and like this it is clear, that all ride against you, in your mind.

I did nothing unfair, i did always ride for my chances, you and your sitter were riding very bad, if i know this, i wouldn't say, that you were the favo! But i actually think, that teams can ride normally on his own chances in DIv 1 and must not complain about others.

[IDF]

Riding bad but 2 stages. I like riding bad. I (we) don't need to make " cheap team attack " (OL's words) to win a stage race.

Third stage : 1vs8 and not 1vs1vs1vs1vs1vs1vs1vs1vs1 ..

[Eagle]

Ok third stage: first of all, there aren't 8 teams in this tour. 2nd tell me where does everyone ride against you? do you mean the group, which attack to come through or what do you mean, i don't know?

[IDF]

1+8 = 9 ? [ok 2 offline]

2) The everyday attacks with following Freude with the statut of favo + this weird following ( cf my 2nd post ) could be show this shit.

But really idc about result , it's Norway tour.. i won 11 times this month , i'm happy , but it shows just how the community is since a moment.

[Eagle]

Yeah iam following riders and teams who want to win the red jersey, thats my bad and armor is doing the same. All hanging at each others and so Lucky shouldn't hang somewhere, if i do an attack? Thats really funny

[IDF]

Maybe but Armor ( you took him for example ) had no chances to win and he wasn't in yellow. ( hello Addy ! )

[Eagle]

No you were in yellow, not Addy. Don't tell lies!

[Eagle]

No interest to discuss longer with a paranoic boy, who build his own truth.

[IDF]

No you were in yellow, not Addy. Don't tell lies!


Haha.. and you said me that i'm a lier.?
Yesterday , who was in yellow?

[IDF]

ofc speaking of yesterday. But friday could be nice too because Arjun had not chances to keep yellow. with Addy just behind in GK and with Freude's/your attacks in 4-5%

[RS Ostfriesland]

First point: Stay on topic or ill close this one.

Second point: They attacked out of two groups, so we have not a team attack.

[IDF]

In the rules but in the spirit... it's a TA.

[RS Ostfriesland]

c4f spirit dont made the rules mate

Remember it for the next race against Adler

[team fl]

You can say he bended the rules, but it's not a forbidden team attack.

Two times an attack with two riders out of the same group is also a "team-attack" in the "spirit", no? Nevertheless, according to the rules, which are very explicitely phrased about that, it's not.

It's another thing to come up with redefining the rules accordingly, in the "spirit", which you can. I would suggest you open another thread for that. Still, Tulpengeneral's action will not become a forbidden team-attack because of that.

[olmania]

c4f spirit dont made the rules mate

Second point: They attacked out of two groups, so we have not a team attack.

You can say he bended the rules, but it's not a forbidden team attack.

Is it something we want to keep ?
Have rules and follow them from A to Z without any exception or consideration of context ?
It's the easy way, cause then we will need discussion to find a limit of the ''spirit'' of the thing. and it's quite impossible.

But this situation showed a limit (or even a problem) in the fair-play rules (and I am talking only about that one, not about other ones that exists, like FL mentionned). In that exact situation (and I am sure others slightly or totally different can happen) the rule was respected in a way but the result of what happen is the same than if the rule was broken. So, do we allow the results generated by a situation that was not breaking the rules if the these results/effects/consequences/actions are the same that if the rule was broken ?

Maybe fair-play rules need to be a little bit improved to avoid a bit more such situation, where people can trick the rule, say that the rule is not broken even if the action+result are the same than breaking the rules.

In this exact situation, we could add a feature to the rule mentioning a certain gap of time between 2 groups has to exist when multiple attacks are coming from different groups. Here the gap was 4sec (on a medium mountain stage) as far as I remember, clearly not much. if the allowed gap for such stage is 15 or 20secs, it changes things and effects of such (legal) team attack are totally reduced/inefficient. (need a bigger gap when attacks are on steep kms).

Plus, it's quite unrealistic to see a guy dropped by a sieb coming back and attacking straight by passing the group in front (in stages with D+)

[team fl]

I think the strength of a rule is, how good you are able to react to a not wanted action by another team. The worst thing to happen is of course the forbidden team attack. And yes, in some cases the result is in fact almost the same with an action that stays within the rules. But then again: Let's say a team attacks with 2 riders at km n, with 2 riders at km n+1 and with one rider at km n+2 during the first half of the race. He does not breach any of the the fairplay rules, but ends up with 5 riders in one group in front of the peloton. So you could argue that the result is the same as if he would have attacked with 5 riders at km 1. Well, no it's not. The peloton hat time after the first attack to react. It also had time after the second attack to react. THAT's the difference.

Anyway, in Tulpengeneral's case here, its a bit different. Because all three attacks took place during the same km. The BUT here is the following: at least one rider attacked from a group behind the other group the riders attacked. I don't know the time difference between the two groups, but there was at least one second. Well, in the end that won't make a big difference, but at least a very litte: at least one more second to react that a three rider attack out of the same group at the same km. Now, is that still in the spirit of the rule? In my opinion, it depends. But as the rule can be bended to that one little second, which won't make any difference at all, I would tend to discuss that issue rule 1 has and try to make it more spiritlike. But then again, in this situation it would have been easy to prevent this attack, but the situation offered Tulpengeneral this opportunity. Is he wrong to use it? Not so far according to the rules. But is it wrong in general to allow such actions in the spirit of the rule? I say yes to a certain extent. But I think that should be discussed more in detail in another, new thread.

[Pokemon Club]

In fact there is a lot of blabla for nothing. Tulpe breaks 0 rules so we don't need this topic. There is only one question here : should we adapt fairplay rules in general ?

[olmania]

So let's open a topic to bring a discussion from that case.
Yes, I agree, no team attack, but when you say he took an opportunity ... according to the race context, I d not call it that way, but whatever, let's stop talking about that situation in particular and move to the general topic led by this specific situation.

[luques]

So let's open a topic to bring a discussion from that case.
Yes, I agree, no team attack, but when you say he took an opportunity ... according to the race context, I d not call it that way, but whatever, let's stop talking about that situation in particular and move to the general topic led by this specific situation.

I opened already a topic long time ago, about Reforming the Fair Play Rules...

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