Classiques Belges

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Robyklebt
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Re: Classiques Belges

Post by Robyklebt » Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:51 am

Team ABC-Polsat wrote:question because of "rond om nekere". Last year it was 2* Pavé, this year only 1*. i saw in google street view the finish line and i think it looks a bit harder then 1*, no? Well maybe i have no idea but thats why i´m asking :)

Image
The Gaurain-Robyklebt analysis said *. And the picture really doesn't make me change my mind... it looks like easy pavé...

Short history of the north classiques: No clue what happened before 09.. lesossies? Or LCB? Bella? Don't remember
Then in 09 iBan designed them.
10: Aywaille designed, building on iBans work
11: Robyklebt, building on iBans and Aywailles work

That was mostly about the %. which is a mess actually, how do you rate a 400 long hill at 12,5%..? Nobody really knows, But basically what we 3 did was check all the sites, the RVV site with all the Hellingen that were ever in RVV http://www.crvv.be/nl/toerisme/hellingen-en-kasseien, the dutch wikipedia, http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categorie: ... elgi%C3%AB, to get exact numbers, then.. :?: :?: :?: :?: try to make sense out of it... This year since I ended up designing it again, next project... pavé. We hadn't really bothered much about that until then, just took wild guesses or followed the RVV site.
This year mostly ignored the % (although I'm sure by reanalyizing all of them again, some would have changed again) but next project was pavé. How hard is it: In 09 iBan said no street view, couldn't do better, don't know about Aywaille in 10, but think I didn't check with street view in 11, probably was already there, but... had enough to do finding the roads and thinking about the climbs. So this year it was pavés turns. Why not simply follow the RVV classification? Because looking at it, and looking at street view, it seemed.. strange, to tough. Compare with a few Paris Roubaix pavé, and what counts as 4 on the RVV site seemed nowhere near close to what is classified as 4 for PR. So with Gaurain this year we looked at the pavé, and decided how hard they seemed according to us:

Here first all the hellingen:

Achterberg 6
Berendries 7
Berg ten Stene 6
Boigneberg 5
Bosberg 206
Casselberg(Route de Dunkerque) 2 5 2
Casselberg(Rue d'Aire) 9
Edelare 6 2
Eikenberg 6**
Eikenmolen 6
Guilleminlaan 3 3 1
Holstraat 5
Hotond 4
Kanarieberg 8
Kapelberg 5
Kaperij (Bosgat 6
Katteberg 6*
Kemmelberg 9****
Kluisberg 7
Knokteberg/Cote de Trieu 8
Koppenberg 409
Kortekeer 6
Kruisberg(kruisstraat) center 3 6
Kruisberg(kruisstraat) from east 2 6
Kruisberg/Oudestraat 6**
La Houppe/Hoppeberg 1 6 4
Leberg 6
Molenberg 7**
Mont des Cats 3 6 -3 6
Monteberg (until Klokhofweg 6
Muur von G. 9****
Nieuwe Kwaremont 5 4
Nokereberg 4*
Oude Kwaremont 6*** 3***
Paterberg 6**
Rekelberg 5
Rekelberg nord 5
Rodeberg Ost Rodebergstraat 5
Stationsberg 3*** 3
Steenbekkendries (not full climb, dvv) 203
Stekkendries/Mariaborrestaat 404
Stuivenberg 4
Taaienberg 6***
Ten Bosse 6
Tiegemberg 5
Valkenberg 6
Vidaigneberg(Bellestraat) 3 5
Wolvenberg 8

The ones in the old 409 format, like Koppenberg haven't been updated yet. And btw, I hate the shit in Gent Wevelgem most, don't even talk about that one. I'll just say yes you're right, whatever you want and throw some books at you. Baneberg, Vidaigneberg, unbelievable idiocies. Announce it now, not designing Gent Wevelgem next year, just pisses me off too much that one. The rest... mmh, could use a new designer too, but if everybody starts hiding under their desks again ok ok ok, if I have the time, maybe...

Pavé:

Donderj **
Etikoveplein *
Haaghoek ***
Holleweg **
Huiseplein *
Huisepontweg */**
Kasteldreef *
Lange Munte */**/**
Lipphoven **
Paddestraat **
Steenakker *
Varent **
Varent (E3 after Berg Steene) **

Again, what we did was look at street view and decide. Robyklebt and Gaurain. Is it perfect? No.. what we should do, have done, is look at everything at once, look at all pavé sectors a first time. Then look at them once more, then maybe a third time, then decide. What we did was first the ones for Het Volk, then what came in other races, one after another. Missing only RVV now, Koppenberg, not sure anything else, and Scheldeprijs... Maybe if we would have looked at them all at once, we'd have some different results. And again, we tried to make it consistent with PR pavé, which finally are just harder. Haaghoek, Donderj and Holleweg are **** according to RVV, if they were in PR, they never would be that high. Would they be **? ***? Don't know... we looked at the pavé and decided... sometimes had some differences of course, one saying * the other *** even happened once I think... relook, recheck then usually we were close enough.

So, of course it's not perfect, but IMO it already is more consistent with PR we think.

Why this long post? Because I'm happy finally somebody shows interest, the more opinions and analyzers the better. So, go for it! Analyze!!! If you have the time... And then send me the result by PN probably better.. since I will re review it after the pavé season for 12, (and will ask Gaurain to do the same) I'll open the PN after my own review, for less influence. So if you do it, don't check if they fit with the Gaurain ape analysis, try to forget our stars and do an independent analysis. If you have time of course and are interested.

Changes this year: For pavé stretches that have already been ridden in Het Volk or KBK: I prefer not... simply for consistency. (hope I was consistent, errors could have happened) Of course if lesossies then decides to change them anyway, ok, he can do that. Pavé stretches that haven't been ridden yet, yep, post those here, I'll double check, ask Gaurain to double check, reevaluate, feedback with you.. and we'll decide. Ah, the Hellingen, and % of course could all change too... Paterberg again 400 meters 12.5%, has been 6 for us for 3 years I think... is that good. I don't know... others are longer but less steep and 6 too.. others have less altitude difference and are 6 too.. maybe Paterberg better at 7? Don't really know.. maybe yes... right now would put it at 7 actually, but was 6 forever, so ok.. Point is, % are not perfect either. But again, basically I'm against changes for Hellingen that have been ridden in 12 already.

Nokereberg: There I stand for *, to me it's *. (And to Gaurain too) Again, if there's popular outrage and leso decides that ** seems better for world peace or because it looks like ** to him too (but check more than just Nokereberg in that case leso, need other *, **, *** and a few PR sectors to compare), he can change it, I won't... but he's the boss after all.
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Re: Classiques Belges

Post by Robyklebt » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:01 am

Dammit... now I'm pissed off..

Molenberg at 7, Paterberg 6 of course is complete shit... If anything should be the opposite... Molenberg already ridden though... Paterberg not yet..
leeeeeesooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo......
Too much work if I change the Paterberg to 7 in 700 races and you reload it? :oops:
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Re: Classiques Belges

Post by lesossies » Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:37 am

Robyklebt wrote:Too much work if I change the Paterberg to 7 in 700 races and you reload it? :oops:
I can change it If you say me where.

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Re: Classiques Belges

Post by Robyklebt » Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:20 am

Oh, ok. If it's easier for you you can change it yourself of course!
I could do it too though, that's not the problem.

But ok

Vlaamse Pijl

km 59 6** :arrow: 7**
Km 60 -5 :arrow: -6

Quer durch Flandern

km 169 6** :arrow: 7**
Km 170 -5 :arrow: -6

GP Harelbeke

km 166 6** :arrow: 7**
km 167 -6 :arrow: -7
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Re: Classiques Belges

Post by Team ABC-Polsat » Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:17 am

ok thanks for the answer :D i´m interested but i really cant decide between 2* or 3* or 4* :?

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Re: Classiques Belges

Post by Robyklebt » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:58 pm

Just look at all the pavé sectors, compare, look at PR ones too... how even, how far apart, how narrow is the road (can play a role to, wider road you can find the best way easier..) how "deep" the Zwischenräume are etc. And as comparison looking at some of the PR things helps, then you have a reference point.
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Re: Classiques Belges

Post by Team ABC-Polsat » Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:11 pm

i will check this

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Re: Classiques Belges

Post by NoPikouze » Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:32 pm

I still think your approach is over-rationalized in a too much mathematical way.

Well, actually I have no clue about this particular case, but on Samyn since it's unsiebable it's basically a simple flatrace. Don't even bother drawing it! :P
Looking at the results, I dont think there was a sieb/selection IRL neither, all the helpers probably stopped racing.
But IF it was siebable IRL, it should also be siebable in a similar way in RSF!

Of course close to the real data, but with a slight difference allowing the RSF-action to come closer to the real-life action!

But again, bad example.
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Re: Classiques Belges

Post by Team ABC-Polsat » Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:24 pm

okay for tomorrow´s tour "West Vlaanderen" i´ve seen, the half of the time trial is a lil bit pave, i dont know if its pave but it´s maybe a kind of

download/file.php?id=343

for the second stage i´ve seen the first 4-5 km are with pavé, in RSF not.

download/file.php?id=344

for the third stage i´m not sure but i think the start and the finish is also pavé

here the homepage http://www.3dwvl.be/

sure maybe it´s too late to change, isn´t it?

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Re: Classiques Belges

Post by Rockstar Inc » Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:19 pm

Team ABC-Polsat wrote:okay for tomorrow´s tour "West Vlaanderen" i´ve seen, the half of the time trial is a lil bit pave, i dont know if its pave but it´s maybe a kind of

download/file.php?id=343

for the second stage i´ve seen the first 4-5 km are with pavé, in RSF not.

download/file.php?id=344

for the third stage i´m not sure but i think the start and the finish is also pavé

here the homepage http://www.3dwvl.be/

sure maybe it´s too late to change, isn´t it?
complete change of the character of a stage or here a complete tour one day before the start of the tour and one day after the season-change would be ridiculous imo
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Re: Classiques Belges

Post by Robyklebt » Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:20 pm

Mmh, I like to be a pain in the ass, so...

Could you, Lesossies, master of the calendar, father of the idiot, etc, think about changing the Kemmelberg? In west flanders it's *** and... 7 or something, not sure about the seven and not in the mood to go checking. That might even be right, who knows, but Gaurain and Ape, the dynamic du9o, the fantasic 4, the great pavélizers, the aweseome something thought 9**** was correct, whcih of course might be completely wrong, but eh thought that was coorrrect. For consistency, why not adapt West Flanders to 9**** too? Even if it might be wrong, as Goethe said 3 minutes before he was born "the consisteny of Tofu is more imoportant the the price of rice".
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Re: Classiques Belges

Post by Team ABC-Polsat » Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:11 pm

Team Franconia wrote:
Team ABC-Polsat wrote:okay for tomorrow´s tour "West Vlaanderen" i´ve seen, the half of the time trial is a lil bit pave, i dont know if its pave but it´s maybe a kind of

download/file.php?id=343

for the second stage i´ve seen the first 4-5 km are with pavé, in RSF not.

download/file.php?id=344

for the third stage i´m not sure but i think the start and the finish is also pavé

here the homepage http://www.3dwvl.be/

sure maybe it´s too late to change, isn´t it?
complete change of the character of a stage or here a complete tour one day before the start of the tour and one day after the season-change would be ridiculous imo
i would say the same if i had a petersen in my team ;) but ok it´s really too less time to change.

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Re: Classiques Belges

Post by flockmastoR » Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:33 pm

1) I was wondering for no pave in this tour
2) It is way too late to correct it (well now for sure but after season change and 1 day before the race completely)
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Re: Classiques Belges

Post by Robyklebt » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:29 am

Image

RVV finished

Hellingen same as in other north races so far, including Paterberg still at 6**

Pavé:
Huisepointweg 2 2
Doorn 4 4
Hollestraat+Ruiterstraat 2 3
Kerkgate 2 2
Paddestraat 1 2 2
Mariaborrestraat 3
Donderj 2
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Re: Classiques Belges

Post by Robyklebt » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:39 am

Image

The pavé bit down to * -** from **-***.
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Re: Classiques Belges

Post by Robyklebt » Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:02 pm

Back to the fun of the north

Het Volk:

Image

Didn't review everything from last year, even if I'm sure some stuff needed reviewing.
http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... ension=c4f

Few changes:

New hellingen (at least didn't appear in my excel sheet)
Oude Steenweg: 7 (could be 6, but I liked 7)
Varent 6, 1*

Changes:
Molenberg 6** from 7**
Paterberg 7** from 6** (is not in Het Volk)

198 km, 198,9 according to them, 198,3 according to me, grrr.
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Re: Classiques Belges

Post by Robyklebt » Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:02 pm

DDV

Image

Length: Their map and their Roadbook show different lengths... we get the one from the map. 194 km. Route is the same as last year, probably some changes before we hit the hellingen to make the length different from 2012 and make us redo all...
Mintact: 152, before the Knokteberg.
changes:
Steenbeekdries-Pontstraat: 1 4** 2 was 1 3** 2 last year...
Paterberg: this year 7** (as announced somewhere here last year)

Image

New hellingen:
Oude Steenweg, 7 like in Het Nieuieuwsblad
Berg ten houte: 6
Mintact from km 140
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Re: Classiques Belges

Post by Robyklebt » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:37 pm

RVV

Image

New stuff: Jagerji at **, seems not to have been in last year
Kerkgate down to 1 km
Donderji... 2 km, the second one 5***. It's a really short second piece of pavé... but looks much worse than the longer early part...
Mariaborre-Steenbeekdries: 4***

Mintact at 180.
Somehow my track was 5 km too long...so cut the first 5 km... since I was 5 km late already at the Tiegemberg seemed that that's were the mistake was.
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Re: Classiques Belges

Post by Robyklebt » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:08 pm

Official Apenouncment

The apes lackey RKL in 2014 will NOT design the Flandrian classics. Did it for 3 years I think, that's enough. Since it's kind of hard and stressful work. Plus a change doesn't hurt.
I'll post how the hills and pavé sectors were classified in 2013 later. Remind me if I forget to do it.
Just a short overview over the general changes: Changed some of the hills, some harder, some softer. Some changes definetly right IMO, some maybe the old system was better? Will be up to the new designer to see what he thinks.
Pavé sectors: Generally made weaker, together with Gaurain mostly, ABC then had his say too. Kind of took the thing that looked most realistic to us. With street view we could see all pavé sectors I think. Main reason for the downgrade: Comparing it with the PR pavé it was clear that everything in RVV and the other Flandern races just was much easier. Pavé at RVV and co. generally isn't that hard.
One thing that could be thought about though is: Make the pavé slightly harder in some hills of RVV compared to what they get in Het Volk, Harelbeke and so on. Reason: Even if it's the same hills, in RVV the "side-track".. .the thing on the side where then most ride during the other races, where it's not pavé but a small thing for rainwater and stuff or something is closed of with barriers, so riders are forced to ride on the pavé, something they don't have to do during the lesser races.
What I mean is this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_lWd9866Zo
Paterberg at 4.40 or so. Terpstra riding the Paterberg all on the side, no pavé there.

At RVV
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71afFPYQSoI
From 8.20 or so: There are barriers there now.

If I remember correctly the same thing happens on some other climbs.
But change that or not will be up to the new designer.

Anyway, the ape doesn't want to do this one more year. Let somebody else do it, might be good for the race anyway. Will post the rating for hills and pavé 2013 later on as I said. Don't look at it as a bible that can't be changed, look at it critically and recheck double check, triple check everything. Important: start early enough, it takes way more time than it should!!
RVV is already online, others might be too, don't know.
Good luck. Of course I can answer question, why x is like this and y like that...
Ah yes, of course except for that thing about the barriers, is nice to have the same climb the same way in all races
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Re: Classiques Belges

Post by Robyklebt » Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:32 pm

As promised, although kind of late the info for the north designer:
Hellingen


Achterberg 6
Berendries 7
Berg ten Houte 6*
Berg ten Stene 6
Boigneberg 5
Bosberg 206
Casselberg(Route de Dunkerque) 2 5 2
Casselberg(Rue d'Aire) 9
Edelare 6 2
Eikenberg 6**
Eikenmolen 5
Guilleminlaan 3 3 1
Holstraat 5
Hotond 4
Kanarieberg 8
Kapelberg 5
Kaperij (Bosgat 6
Katteberg 6*
Kemmelberg (sud, Klokhofweg) 6
Kluisberg 7
Knokteberg/Cote de Trieu 8
Koppenberg 9****
Kortekeer 6
Kruisberg(kruisstraat) center 3 6**
Kruisberg(kruisstraat) from east 2 6**
Kruisberg/Oude Kruiskens 6**
La Houppe/Hoppeberg 1 6 4
Leberg 6
Mariaborre-Steenbeekdries 4***
Molenberg 6**
Mont des Cats 3 6 -3 6
Monteberg (until Klokhofweg 6
Muur von G. 9****
Nieuwe Kwaremont 5 4
Nokereberg 4*
Oude Kwaremont 6*** 3***
Oude Steenweg (Gerardsbergen) 7
Paterberg 7**
Rekelberg 4
Rekelberg nord 5
Rodeberg Ost Rodebergstraat 5
Stationsberg 3*** 3
Steenbeekdries-Pontstraat 1 4** 2
Steenbekkendries (not full climb, dvv) 3**
Stuivenberg 4
Taaienberg 6***
Ten Bosse 6
Tiegemberg 5
Valkenberg 6
Varent 6 0*
Vidaigneberg(Bellestraat) 3 5
Wolvenberg 8


Kasseien
No guarantee about the length, some stuff might be 2-3km, but if the same * then sometimes might only have written one.


Donderj **
Doorn ****/***
Etikoveplein *
Haaghoek ***/***
Hof te Fienne... ***
Holleweg **
Huiseplein *
Huisepontweg **
Jagerji **
Kasteldreef *
Kerkgate **
Lange Munte */**/**
Lipphoven **
Paddestraat **
Rujiterstaat ***
Steenakker *
Taienberg *** (not sure why it's written down here too...)
Varent **
Varent (E3 after Berg Steene) *

Anyway, that's the way it was in 2013 (I hope at least, very possible I made mistakes writing it down)
Just as a help for the new 2014 north designer, everything of course can be changed.
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Re: Classiques Belges

Post by luques » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:10 pm

Not important since RKL won't draw it, we won't play it! Ah!

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Re: Classiques Belges

Post by Pokemon Club » Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:49 pm

luques wrote:
Not important since RKL won't draw it, we won't play it! Ah!
Ah because Ape drew it last year ? Thought only Flandrian was his stuff !

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Re: Classiques Belges

Post by olmania » Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:05 pm

Anyway, who's going to do a bit of work on these classics and semi classics if needed this year ?
Soon, it will be a hurry to find a 2014 specialist :D

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Re: Classiques Belges

Post by Pokemon Club » Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:03 am

olmania wrote:Anyway, who's going to do a bit of work on these classics and semi classics if needed this year ?
Soon, it will be a hurry to find a 2014 specialist :D
You ? =D

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