December Tour 2022 rules&discussion

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lennylenny
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Re: December Tour 2022 rules&discussion

Post by lennylenny » Wed Nov 02, 2022 10:38 am

Robyklebt wrote:
Wed Nov 02, 2022 9:48 am
Don't know what Lenny was smoking when he claimed otherwise. 5 times flat. Too much?
With that i meant some small climbs on the stage to make it interesting, not full Speedy Gonzalez style
Spelling mistakes are Special functions Like bugs that are functions of the game

Robyklebt
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Re: December Tour 2022 rules&discussion

Post by Robyklebt » Wed Nov 02, 2022 11:35 am

Yes but you're wrong. In 5 flat stages the awesome Design Tour has ONE km over 6% (I think, not going to check) The rest is +1 0 0-1 2 0 -2 kind of stuff. Maybe there's a few +4 or +3 in there somewhere, but that doesn't really make anything interesting unless it's in the last few kms.
That category seems to make 0 sense if a few +2 or +3 are enough to qualify....
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Robyklebt
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Re: December Tour 2022 rules&discussion

Post by Robyklebt » Wed Nov 02, 2022 4:41 pm

Madagascar:

It's cold. Almost enough to make this very short and eliminate it from contention for the third Donks-vote. Very cold. Some snow. Even in New York City. I suppose more in the hills/mountains on stage 2-3. Hm, might be out.
Stages itself, nice actually.
Let's start with flat, only 4, but all easy for flat sprinters, max 5 if I got it right. So 4 safe ones, 0 other possible, ok for me.
Rest: Prologue - mountain - hill for some early GC action, but not big differences. Next the TTT after the rest day, good, no rest day just punishes active teams the day before too much IMO. And some have to be active. TTT more clarity in the GC, but 36 km not huge differences, but considering the overall difficulty of the HC stages probably big enough to be decisive. Next GC stage 8, nice climb, downhill, nice, you need a complete climber here, not just a climber. I have a problem with the 13 18 3 though, that looks very much like incorrect reading, GPS, look at google maps for the climb, terrain. When the road reaches 590, for +/-500 meters it's flat. It heads south, then north again, looks like 20-30 meters apart. That's just bad reading, most likely it's a much more regular climb. Last GC stage the last one, a bit longer MTF. So generally small differences everywhere, a good TTT even without big differences important, winning 40" there could very well be enough. GC for climbers, unless there's a dangerous escape going through, more focus on middle mountain stages. 4 of them. Like the concept, more for classics, but GC pretty safely for climbers,
And since Lenny keeps harping on mintacts... let's talk about those. Very bad and actually insulting to sprinters, it shows how little you value sprinters. 10km? Would you put 10 km mintact on a 20km mountain finish? No. Why not? It's the same thing. Dangerous attacks for sprinter teams don't only go in the last 10 km. Depending on how many they are the time the big danger can be km 30 to 15 to go. You can't put in your top rider yet. It's nr 4-3-2, even 2 is dangerous dangerous, you can't control the last 15 km with just one guy. And not every sprinter team has 88 88 88 89 flat riders. So (very much depending on the composition of the group of course) it's exactly those earlier km that you sweat. And by having that in the 30" tact, you just make the task harder for the sprinters. They can't miss a km, they can't go get a coffee, an ice cream from the freezer (I can because I'm very close to the kitchen, I'm back in 10") You say if a guy goes and I have my nr 4 in tempo, even if I miss 2 km he's only at 10"? Well, those 10" might be enough with enough followers and mass. And in mountains if I have a classic in tempo, miss 2 km and a climber is 50" ahead.... if I go in tempo with a second climber I still get him (20 km from the end, easy) If I only have one climber... need to get cooperation from others, hard. But here nothing changes if I miss those 2 km or not... If that climber goes that early you have the same problem, if you have nothing more, you either chase with your leader, thus weakening him or you have other teams that help chase. If anything in the sprinters case it's more critical to react right immediately, but for some reason you decide to show your disdain for sprinters by making there job harder. Something you would never do for climbers. A 10 km mintact on a sprint stage is an abomination that has no place in this game IMO.

Madagascar Baobabs:

Now this one is difficult to assess. No popup profiles, and from stage 6 to 10 the profile goes to 4000 meters, making it hard to understand much from the profile itself.
The link for the popup profile for stage 8:

http://www.radsportfreaks.de/radsport/p ... ension=c4f
For other stages just replace the file name. here antananarivo_faratsiho (That's one of the reasons I usually name my stages after a tour, so here I would have called them madabaobabs_01, numbering up to 11, (don't change now, otherwise we have it double) then much easier to get all the popups right (I usually just copy an old one and change it to whatever I want)

The tour: I'm not sure it really is what the designer wanted it to be? Not a single stage for climbers seems to me. Stage 4 the closest, depending on how steep the downhill is and how long the flat. Last stage similar, the climb not hard enough to make differences, then seems flattish for 2 or so km? IMO even if the GC is not for climbers, they should get some stages at least.
4 flat sprints
2 hill sprint, (9 seems sure, 6 pretty likely)
TT+TTT
3 middle mountain stages.
Don't like the location of the TTT either of course, punishes active teams, favorite teams by having them not have their riders fit.
Somehow I don't dislike this as much as I should, it has a certain charm, like that it's only 11 days too, but not enough to get my vote, nothing at all for climbers (or 2 very doubtful stages) IMO is too little. Make it 2 MTF, and the tour is already much much better. 4 flat sprints and 2 hill sprints, lots of sprints, but that's ok, limit like Design, but why not. 2 MTF, hm, then there's only 1 real middle mountain, that that not enough.. hm,

Last one tomorrow, or later today maybe, will see.
Kraftsystemrevision! Include the distance!
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Robyklebt
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Re: December Tour 2022 rules&discussion

Post by Robyklebt » Thu Nov 03, 2022 8:41 pm

New Zealand:

Use "recalculate elevation"! The heights are all off I suppose! Correcting it now no problem either.
Stages: Flat, stages 1, 2, 3, 6, 9 seem sure sprints, then 5, 12, 13 hill sprint, but a fighting chance for the flat sprinters too. Seems a bit much maybe? Considering 11 seems safe for hill sprinters, that's 9 sort of sprint in 13 stages.
2 mountain top arrivals, pretty easy, control, beat the other climbers in the end. But minimal differences.
TT differences will be much bigger, so the favorites here should be the classic TT guys. 70-70 beats 80-60. 60-80? Hm, those are probably killed by stage 7. Aaaah, stage 7 looks interesting, but... it's not a road, it's a hiking trail. A bit too much fantasy fantasy for me. So while the stage looks indeed very interesting, those 4 km a 20% followed by downhill and 15 km flat, do climbers have a chance to survive that ahead of the classics? 15km flat is a lot, but these 4 km should give them a big advantage too. Don't know, but would be worth trying to find out. But since it's a hiking trail...
Love the presentation, even if somehow the best picture now is gone, the one with the super clear water. Lots of text, the more the better somebody once informed me, nice picture, like the map. But in the end the imprecision of the design "recalculate elevation", the somehow too many sprints for Merlier and the hiking trail won't allow me to vote for this.
Kraftsystemrevision! Include the distance!
Basics reform: Give blue a chance!
Don't punish bugusers. We all have to use bugs, since most of them are declared as "features"!

FSG Sattelpuper
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Re: December Tour 2022 rules&discussion

Post by FSG Sattelpuper » Tue Nov 08, 2022 10:35 pm

First of all, a big shout-out to all the designers who took the trouble to design such a big fantasy tour and certainly spent a lot of time and energy on it. We came up with seven proposals, which is more than we have had in recent years. Those who dared to go to countries where the infrastructure is poor had a particularly hard time. This has made the task of finding routes to make a nice tour even more difficult. It's nice that some designers who have only been working in this field for a short time and don't yet have much experience have also dared to take on the task.

Thank you!
Please give them all a round of applause!


And here are the results of the December-Tour election of the FSG.

First the rating categories:
1. (30%) Balance (terrain, difficulty)
2. (25%) Realism, feasibility, sustainability (Without political and financial situation of the countries)
3. (20%) Tension in the ratings (GC, Sprint, Mountain)
4. (10%) Opportunities for small and medium-sized teams
5. (10%) Presentation
6. (5%) Opportunities for the FSG

Points from 1 to 10 were given and at the end an average score was made for each proposal.

Design Tour:
1. 8 Points
2. 1 Point
3. 7 Points
4. 7 Points
5. 8 Points
6. 9 Points
Averige 6,0 Points

A very beautiful and well-balanced tour, which gets the highest scores from me in many categories. Unfortunately it has a decisive disadvantage, it is a real fantasy tour, a realisation is impossible and this has led to the poor rating in category 2. As a result, the very good overall picture has unfortunately fallen off somewhat.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Calexico 2022:
1. 6 Points
2. 8 Points
3. 8 Points
4. 3 Points
5. 9 Points
6. 4 Points
Averige 6,8 Points

One of the more difficult tours, although it shines with its very beautiful terrain, practicability and presentation. There should be excitement in all classifications. Unfortunately, the smaller teams will think twice about whether it is worth it for them to ride there. The tour makes a very good overall impression.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOUR OF ATLAS 2022:
1. 5 Points
2. 2 Points
3. 5 Points
4. 4 Points
5. 8 Points
6. 4 Points
Averige 4,4 Points

From my point of view the most difficult tour proposed, as it is very mountainous. In addition, there is the disadvantage of the lack of infrastructure in the countries. I had great problems finding starting and finishing points and when I found the right ones, I had to cover between 150 km and 400 km between the stages by car on four days. I guess it is only a tour for strong teams with riders who can regenerate well, unfortunately many other teams will stay away. On the other hand, everything that is important for the stages is listed briefly and quickly in the presentation, the information was best conveyed here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CALIFORNICATION TOUR 2022:
1. 4 Points
2. 7 Points
3. 6 Points
4. 6 Points
5. 4 Points
6. 6 Points
Averige 5,45 Points

Overall, the terrain is quite balanced, but unfortunately the long climbs are mostly flat and when they do get steeper, they are relatively far away from the finish, which gives the classics and flat specialists a chance to catch up. What is lacking in difficulties in the stages is compensated by a lot of length, half of the stages with just under 200 km or sometimes considerably more, unfortunately does not make them more interesting. You can clearly see my colleague's inexperience with the presentation, there are some details missing that would make it easier to interpret the difficulty of the stages. On the positive side, the tour is easy to implement and makes a good overall impression. At the second attempt, we have learned a lot and we will clearly see a further development next year.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Madagascar:
1. 8 Points
2. 5 Points
3. 8 Points
4. 8 Points
5. 9 Points
6. 6 Points
Averige 7,25 Points

I like the theme that has been chosen here. The implementation and linking with the stages is also very well done. There were very high scores in almost all categories, and rightly so. I suspect that a lot of experience is reflected in this design. Unfortunately, one disadvantage of the theme is the weather and the temperature in New York at this time of year. No one wants to ride or watch a road bike race when it's around 0 degrees. The time zone change to Madagascar is also very difficult for a top athlete who then has to perform again straight away. Nevertheless, the designer's work is extremely successful.
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Madagascar Baobabs:
1. 5 Points
2. 4 Points
3. 6 Points
4. 5 Points
5. 7 Points
6. 7 Points
Averige 5,25 Points

With this proposal, real mountaineers are probably only used as helpers, the stages are mostly in the flat or hilly area. On the other hand, nothing works in the GC here without time trial. Unfortunately, two distance jumps of around 500 km between two stages make the tour unrealistic. The remaining areas are rated in the middle. The overall impression is good, also due to the few stages, but I would not do a two-week December tour here, just a short Cat 1 tour.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New Zealand South to North:
1. 7 Points
2. 8 Points
3. 8 Points
4. 8 Points
5. 7 Points
6. 7 Points
Averige 7,55 Points

Comparing my own tour with the others wouldn't be entirely fair, since I've defined the categories that I used to design them myself. The only requirement was to design a balanced tour. All in all, I think the tour went quite well, but there is still room for improvement everywhere. I particularly benefited from my late publication, because I was able to learn a few things from the others as far as the presentation was concerned. All in all, I just don't have enough experience to be able to assess things better. With the same effort, I should be able to increase it next year. I decided to vote for my proposal as well, because I'm in category 1, which I think is 3rd place.


And the three voices of the FSG go to:

New Zealand South to North

Calexico 2022 ------------------------- and

Madagascar



I hope I didn't offend anyone with my assessment, it's just my subjective assessment and of course everyone is allowed to have their own and doesn't have to adopt mine.

I hope to see you in a sporty, fair and exciting battle on the streets of the December tour!

Chense
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Re: December Tour 2022 rules&discussion

Post by Chense » Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:13 pm

So to all of you thanks for the nice competition

Just some info about January for those who really set form for it - Stage 1 and 2 are the ones that will be cut

Robyklebt
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Re: December Tour 2022 rules&discussion

Post by Robyklebt » Fri Nov 18, 2022 5:06 pm

Kraftsystemrevision! Include the distance!
Basics reform: Give blue a chance!
Don't punish bugusers. We all have to use bugs, since most of them are declared as "features"!

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Laugenspitze
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Re: December Tour 2022 rules&discussion

Post by Laugenspitze » Fri Nov 18, 2022 6:36 pm

Robyklebt wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 5:06 pm
About Madagascar:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... n-new-york
:D
??? hää ^^
> Formerly known as ogopogo-racing < > ... doesn`t matter <

Robyklebt
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Re: December Tour 2022 rules&discussion

Post by Robyklebt » Sat Nov 19, 2022 3:51 pm

Not Baobabs! The other tour.
Kraftsystemrevision! Include the distance!
Basics reform: Give blue a chance!
Don't punish bugusers. We all have to use bugs, since most of them are declared as "features"!

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