Winter Calendar 2016-17 : Calendar and Discussion

[Pokemon Club]

Hi people, it is nearly the end of August a good time to start talking about winter stuff.

I insert an excel file of what can look Winter, don't hesitate to give your opinon nothing is fix.
As last year there will have some 4-6 days tours contest to prepare Dec Tour contest too.
For one day race for the moment I choose races and dates arbitrarily.
Anyway some importants questions now : who is drawing Andes ? Cerro ? Alk ?
And for Sachsen and TdP ?

RSF Winter Calendar 2017.xlsx

(16 KiB) Downloaded 222 times

[Coroncina2]

I think could be nice make contest of short winter tours not only fixing the number of stages but even kind of tour to have different kind of tour and not all, for exaple, mountain tour.
For exaple:
1 flat tour of 4 stage
1 classic tour of 4 stage
1 mountain tour of 4 stage
1 flat tour of 5 stage
1 classic tour of 5 stage
1 mountain tour of 5 stage
1 flat tour of 6 stage
1 classic tour of 6 stage
1 mountain tour of 6 stage

There will be many tours and maybe we can do less short mountain tours because Ande is a mountain tour of 15 and mountain teams will have fun on it.
With different kind won't be a problem set them in parallel and all teams can have fun with independently of his kind of riders.

[luques]

I think could be nice make contest of short winter tours not only fixing the number of stages but even kind of tour to have different kind of tour and not all, for exaple, mountain tour.
For exaple:
1 flat tour of 4 stage
1 classic tour of 4 stage
1 mountain tour of 4 stage
1 flat tour of 5 stage
1 classic tour of 5 stage
1 mountain tour of 5 stage
1 flat tour of 6 stage
1 classic tour of 6 stage
1 mountain tour of 6 stage

There will be many tours and maybe we can do less short mountain tours because Ande is a mountain tour of 15 and mountain teams will have fun on it.
With different kind won't be a problem set them in parallel and all teams can have fun with independently of his kind of riders.

Too many tours, then there will be the guy who wants the tour for ITT, the other guy that wants tour for TTT, the other guy that wants a tour for mountain ITT, one that wants for Huber and someone other for a pure climber, someone will want a classic sprint, someone other a hill sprinter and so on.

And not only this, people then will not agree about the fact that 1 tour is for sprinters or for classics, "Oh I see there is a +7 somewhere there, this is for classic", "A +5 at the end, surely a climber!" and so on...

So I guess the open formula is the best to avoid useless discussions, after all it is just fantasy races, we can also avoid doing any tour until January

[Coroncina2]

Ok
Poke ask for opinion saying that nothing is fix
Now I have a climber, not my problem if there will be all mountain tours.

[luques]

Ok
Poke ask for opinion saying that nothing is fix
Now I have a climber, not my problem if there will be all mountain tours.

Obviously nothing is fix, except RSF Classics and Tours like Andes or Sachsen Pavè.

Simply I don't get the advantage of your idea, and you are not even supporting it anymore as you didn't answer for nothing to the objections
For example how would you rate a Tour as Limousin? For sprinters? For classics?

So let's make

1 Tour for pure sprinters
1 Tour for hill sprinters
1 Tour for classic sprinters
1 Tour for escapers
1 Tour for climbers with TT
1 Tour for pure climbers
1 Tour for classics with TT
1 Tour for classics
1 Tour for Climbers with High flat

and everyone maybe will be happy (did I miss something other?)

[Coroncina2]

You are right luques, I miss many kind of tours
You option is better but maybe 9 fantasy tours are too much.
But for example escapers can win in almost all tours if favo can't control, climbers with hight flat are almost like classics. So we could make 7 tour of 5 days (maybe someone with half-stages).
I know that the point is that we have different opinion about a race profil, but could be nice if we won't have all a kind of tour because most of teams are made for it.

[Pokemon Club]

You are right luques, I miss many kind of tours
You option is better but maybe 9 fantasy tours are too much.
But for example escapers can win in almost all tours if favo can't control, climbers with hight flat are almost like classics. So we could make 7 tour of 5 days (maybe someone with half-stages).
I know that the point is that we have different opinion about a race profil, but could be nice if we won't have all a kind of tour because most of teams are made for it.

Bah if a majority vote for the same kind of race we can't do nothing ^^

[Robyklebt]

Hello! I'm here to improve this too.

1) All one day races until January already in? Wow. Good, BUT, maybe not all would have made sense? When I was designing, not anymore, sorry, and doubt I'll start in the offseason, I usually started doing a few "winter season races" in October when everything real was done.... So keeping some spaces open for people with that designing habit would have made sense I think.

2) Small tours: Don't care really. But the idea of having a bunch of specialized tours is bad, the less of them the better.

3) Big stage races: Sachsen Pavé ok, Andes ok, Dec ok, January not ok. 7 days is not enough, if we chose it with the same system as we did so far. Cutting a tour from 14 days, 13 with stages, to 7 can just change everything, so IMO the January tour needs to be 10 days long. Or be cut in it's present form. This year then overlap with Pavé? So be it. Better that than a 7 day one. Or cut it, either or.

4) 1 day fantasy pavé races: for me too many in November and december. We should aim to get 2 of them every month, not some months zero, other months 3/4. November 3, one of them cat 2. Cut one I'd say. December 4, Pavé de Noel is fantasy too after all. Cut 2. Or make it 2-3 or 3-2, but 3-4 is too much.

5) Winter fantasy classics!!!!!!!

October: We have 4. FOUR! Too many, it's October, the month of Lombardia and Paris-Tours.
Bielsko Biala 2 CUT Not that good anyway, originally a proposal for classic status by the Ape or even Klebt, both idiots, cut it.
Bolkow-Bolkow: One of the original winter classics. But the course changed... so it could be cut, but ok, it's one of those that by know most recognize the name, so keeping it ok
Zagreb Ljubliana 2 CUT Don't remember what it is, cut anyway, we have too many in October. Way too many. 0 would be ideal.
Mosell Cup: Never liked it, the idiotic name it has since a few years makes it worse, at least rename it like the original, Coppa Mosella...which is a stupid name too ,but at least what it was originally called. Or Mosel Cup. Or Coupe Moselle. But not this name that makes no sense since it's no known language...I've been for cutting it for years, but ok ,there to stay.
But cut the 2 others.

November: 9 good, 4 of them during the Andes, VERY good.
December: 8 good too
Jan: 2. Fits too, seems the right number.

So basically I say do something about October. Specifically cut those 2 races.

Don't think I would have chosen the same ones at cat3 honestly, but doesn't matter.. somehow have a feeling one got lost, but can't remember which?

Ah, and while I haven't seen through all the cat 1 one day races.... some sound very familiar, probably ridden the second or even third time... I'd rather have new ones in those cases...

[luques]

Actually imo last year there was too many votations. So much choice that I got a bit bored, but it may be personal.

[Pokemon Club]

Hi guys !

Sorry I have some problems with internet so I couldn't really react here :/, I'll try to answer at all :

1-5) One day race :
Of course it isn't totally fix, but not all. Except race as Bielsko-Biala, Bolkow, Mosell Cup, Lanzarote, Brescia and Letzbuerg, all others races can be change in the calendar. After I would like to change Continents each 2 weeks, and concentrate all european, american, african, asian, and oceanian races together. I can keep some space for new design, there is no need to hurry to put the races in calendar after.

2) tours :
We'll keep the same system than last year. It makes some training for Dec Tour contest, and some people can maybe start to draw race like that. I don't put limit about what can draw people for that, normally designers are enough different for not drawing the same thing. I'll open competitions for that soon.

3) Big stages race :
January Tour // TdP is a problem this year because the real season start earlier. Maybe cut one, maybe both in parallel, let's decide the community for that is an option.

4) Well I like paves as ASO like 10 years a go to design TDF with a n HC mountain before a 80km flat finish. maybe it will be 2 pave race and 2 itt/ttt per month. But I don't count pave de Noel or tour de Herne as pave races, it is usual Xmas stuff.

[team fl]

ad 3) No Tour des Pavés is no option! Either parallel or after each other with a shortened January Tour in my opinion.

ad 4) agree with RKL *sigh*

[Robyklebt]

1) Hadn't realized the grouping together of races. Like that actually good.
Fix: Why is Bielsko Biala fit. It's not all that superb, it's in October, not every race that got the classic status has to keep it and stay. Some just don't cut it, Bielsko for me doesn't. And the only person I remember ever saying that Bielsko Biala deserves to be a classic is me too, years ago when it came in. Now the only reason to keep it seems to be that it is there. But again, all RSF classics should be cutable, nothing is there forever. And then if the race just isn't nothing special, like Bielsko Biala, is in October when there is still real races so there is no real need for fantasy classic, like Bielsko Biala, then it should be a no-brainer to cut it.
Same for Zagreb Ljubliana of course: Don't even recognize the name. Checked this time, since 2010 it seems... Very very normal average sprint race with a +3 finish. Something like that isn't needed in October. Could be ok for November-December, not sure how many sprint races with classic status we have there, but since that's too late weather wise... CUT.

Then we're down to 2 fantasy classics in October, which is still 2 too many, but much better than 4.

2) Actually would agree with Luques that too many votes don't help, but ok ok, you like the votes, so I'll vote again this year. Too bad most people don't vote.

3) Parallel ok as I said. Cut January tour ok. But cut the January tour in length makes no sense. Why not see how many proposals there will be for the December tour and decide according to that? 5 or less proposals, no runner up as January tour. More than 5, January tour yes. Shortened as usual, that means 10 days.

4 You like pavé, nice, but then better to make sure we have our 2 pavé races a month. I didn't see them in August. Or July (ok, was in the Tour). Instead of having more than average pavé in the offseason, let's have 2 pavé races a month. EVERY month (more when there's more real ones of course)

[cataracs]

Hi people, it is nearly the end of August a good time to start talking about winter stuff.


who is drawing Andes ? Cerro ? Alk ?

I'm doing it, I'll put it in discussion soon.

[cataracs]

A little proposal for the offseason, depeding on the rsf winter fantasy classics/tours ranking the best 20 teams will be qualified for an rsf winter championship and race for it on the last day of the season.

[Liquigas-CND]

I agree with taka, this way the best teams cannot avoid the greatest team!

[Pokemon Club]

There is no spot for such a weird idea at the end of offseason

[Coroncina2]

I drew Tour of Hainan 2016 22/10/2016 - 30/10/2016.
Real tour of UCI calendar caregory 2.HC (same of Tirreno-Adriatico, Paris-Nimes, Pais Vascos, Dauphiné, Suisse etc).
Why you didn't written in your calendar?

[Pokemon Club]

I drew Tour of Hainan 2016 22/10/2016 - 30/10/2016.
Real tour of UCI calendar caregory 2.HC (same of Tirreno-Adriatico, Paris-Nimes, Pais Vascos, Dauphiné, Suisse etc).
Why you didn't written in your calendar?

2.HC is the same than Dunkerquec Criterium, California, etc.
We usually skip it is long (9 days), in an uninteresting country (China), with 99% of the time only flat stages, at the end of the season where we put Sachsen Pavés. For all this reason we skip Hainan

[Coroncina2]

No space for an official tour because you don't like the country and too flat (take a look at stage 6 and 8).
I think that also teams make race and not only profile. 7 flat stage but 1 for climbers or classics and one for classics could be important for GC. So classic a classic rider could win if strong and don't lose much time in climber stage. Climber could win if a strong team can defend him in classic stage and so on.
I propose to anticipate Hainan in the first 2 week (for exaple from 2 to 11) to not be in parallel with Dubay or the fantasy tour. I think fantasy races should be created to fill the gaps in the official calendar and not overlap and delete official races.

[Pokemon Club]

No space for an official tour because you don't like the country and too flat (take a look at stage 6 and 8).
I think that also teams make race and not only profile. 7 flat stage but 1 for climbers or classics and one for classics could be important for GC. So classic a classic rider could win if strong and don't lose much time in climber stage. Climber could win if a strong team can defend him in classic stage and so on.
I propose to anticipate Hainan in the first 2 week (for exaple from 2 to 11) to not be in parallel with Dubay or the fantasy tour.

We already had this kind of debate for Langkawi which have a similar profil. We made a try with Bolivia in 2013, it was horrible too. To be parallel to Dubai isn't a problem. But each time we have this kind of tour in the calendar, the participation is weak or/and people who participe feel it boring. So now we just skip it.
And if you want my personnal opinion, I don't like it but I would advance Hainan as you said at the start of the month, easier to win Paris Tours for me like that

[Coroncina2]

You don't know how many teams will play it, but If you think not much we could make 3 timetables.
I think is a shame don't play all UCI official tours ina game of cycling. It start to be more a game of power. More power you have more you can decide the calendar.

[Pokemon Club]

You don't know how many teams will play it, but If you think not much we could make 3 timetables.
I think is a shame don't play all UCI official tours ina game of cycling. It start to be more a game of power. More power you have more you can decide the calendar.

I definitively don't know how many people would play it. But what you propose isn't better. Move Hainan at the start of the month = kill Tours , Binche, Bourges, Munsterland Giro, etc. Moving Sachsen in November ? Propose that the lasts years, a lot was disagree, I don't think their opinions change. In the middle of the month ? There is the Worlds. Hainan instead of Abu Dhabi ? But Abu Dhabi will be a 2.UWT next year, so better if we keep it. Call it a dictature, a shame or what you want but sometimes there is some reasons which make we must cut races as China, Hainan, Langkawi, Turkey, Criterium, Ruta del Sol, Utah, etc...

[luques]

Just a little modification, Chemin de Dieppe has been played recently, so at 29.10 we will play the real UAE Cup

[cataracs]

Is it ok to draw a fantasy tour for winter in belgium? the routes aare easy to find, and attract more votes since it's nice and famous

[Pokemon Club]

Is it ok to draw a fantasy tour for winter in belgium? the routes aare easy to find, and attract more votes since it's nice and famous

As for Kazi race I don't see the interest to designa tour in Belgium. Cold weather + we often use belgium route in real season : Baloise, Wallonie, De Panne, West-Vlaanderen, Belgique, Eurometrople, Eneco + all Classics and semi-classics...