December Tour 2013, rules, discussions, criticisms!

[Pirkio]

If you don't like the tour just don't vote it.. If 9 people voted luques tour is because they want that kind of tour!
And, If 9 people voted for Venezuela is because they want the sprint tour.

I don't see very problem with Luques TTT, all have to run that day not only me, so my reg should not be different than the reg of other. After that, if someone want to go for the stage can fight in escape, they will lose a lot of time in the team time trial and nothing will happend as usual. The knowed 2 - 3 team of the group will fight for the tour untill the last day. And the last climb is very nice and funny all other tour don't have cool stages like that.

[gaurain rx]

Well, I have a problem with Venezuela Winter Tour participating this competition.

IMO it's not a December Tour. It's an Extreme Flat Tour, which, if I'm right, is not the purpose of a Dec tour

You can tell that of course GC is not for sprinter but still :

7 completly flat stages, 2 flat stages, 1 TT, 2 MM, 1 moutain --> Extreme Tour.

Anden, considered as a an Etreme Mountain Tour has :

6 moutain stages, 5 MM, 2 flat, 1 TT and 1 TTT. ok, Gk there should be for climbers! But facts shows that is it at least as balanced as VWT.

So, this tour, IMO, shouldn't be part of this Déc Tour competition

[olmania]

Well, I have a problem with Venezuela Winter Tour participating this competition.

IMO it's not a December Tour. It's an Extreme Flat Tour, which, if I'm right, is not the purpose of a Dec tour

You can tell that of course GC is not for sprinter but still :

7 completly flat stages, 2 flat stages, 1 TT, 2 MM, 1 moutain --> Extreme Tour.

Anden, considered as a an Etreme Mountain Tour has :

6 moutain stages, 5 MM, 2 flat, 1 TT and 1 TTT. ok, Gk there should be for climbers! But facts shows that is it at least as balanced as VWT.

So, this tour, IMO, shouldn't be part of this Déc Tour competition

I agree.

Is it said in the Dec Tour that it should not be a Extreme tour, or it's just something we have in mind ?

[Hunsrueck]

Well, I have a problem with Venezuela Winter Tour participating this competition.

IMO it's not a December Tour. It's an Extreme Flat Tour, which, if I'm right, is not the purpose of a Dec tour

You can tell that of course GC is not for sprinter but still :

7 completly flat stages, 2 flat stages, 1 TT, 2 MM, 1 moutain --> Extreme Tour.

Anden, considered as a an Etreme Mountain Tour has :

6 moutain stages, 5 MM, 2 flat, 1 TT and 1 TTT. ok, Gk there should be for climbers! But facts shows that is it at least as balanced as VWT.

So, this tour, IMO, shouldn't be part of this Déc Tour competition

Yes you and Ol are right!

Please take the Tour out from the competition!

The Italy and Germantour should also out, because in dezember its cold in Europe.

Greets Huns

[gaurain rx]

Well, I have a problem with Venezuela Winter Tour participating this competition.

IMO it's not a December Tour. It's an Extreme Flat Tour, which, if I'm right, is not the purpose of a Dec tour

You can tell that of course GC is not for sprinter but still :

7 completly flat stages, 2 flat stages, 1 TT, 2 MM, 1 moutain --> Extreme Tour.

Anden, considered as a an Etreme Mountain Tour has :

6 moutain stages, 5 MM, 2 flat, 1 TT and 1 TTT. ok, Gk there should be for climbers! But facts shows that is it at least as balanced as VWT.

So, this tour, IMO, shouldn't be part of this Déc Tour competition

Yes you and Ol are right!

Please take the Tour out from the competition!

The Italy and Germantour should also out, because in dezember its cold in Europe.

Greets Huns

December Tour

Message par lesossies » Ven Sep 10, 2010 11:33 pm
I fixed some rules for the design and the vote of the December Tour.

Tour limits:
10-14 days with maximal 1 rest day.
max. 1 day with half-races.

No extrem tour
( no Anden or Pavés Tour or extrem flat one)

[olmania]

People's votes about winter should be logical. The ones voting for Dec tour in Germany or Italy ...

Had to go back to a 2010 topic to find this line, but it exists, and we still use it. So yes, maybe Venezuela do not respect the rules of creation for a Dec Tour.

[Pokemon Club]

Well, I have a problem with Venezuela Winter Tour participating this competition.

IMO it's not a December Tour. It's an Extreme Flat Tour, which, if I'm right, is not the purpose of a Dec tour

You can tell that of course GC is not for sprinter but still :

7 completly flat stages, 2 flat stages, 1 TT, 2 MM, 1 moutain --> Extreme Tour.

Anden, considered as a an Etreme Mountain Tour has :

6 moutain stages, 5 MM, 2 flat, 1 TT and 1 TTT. ok, Gk there should be for climbers! But facts shows that is it at least as balanced as VWT.

So, this tour, IMO, shouldn't be part of this Déc Tour competition

Yes you and Ol are right!

Please take the Tour out from the competition!

The Italy and Germantour should also out, because in dezember its cold in Europe.

Greets Huns

December Tour

Message par lesossies » Ven Sep 10, 2010 11:33 pm
I fixed some rules for the design and the vote of the December Tour.

Tour limits:
10-14 days with maximal 1 rest day.
max. 1 day with half-races.

No extrem tour
( no Anden or Pavés Tour or extrem flat one)

Well, problem here is that there is no number to know where is the limit for extrem tour. I hope, next year, things will be more explicit.

[Hunsrueck]

Well, I have a problem with Venezuela Winter Tour participating this competition.

IMO it's not a December Tour. It's an Extreme Flat Tour, which, if I'm right, is not the purpose of a Dec tour

You can tell that of course GC is not for sprinter but still :

7 completly flat stages, 2 flat stages, 1 TT, 2 MM, 1 moutain --> Extreme Tour.

Anden, considered as a an Etreme Mountain Tour has :

6 moutain stages, 5 MM, 2 flat, 1 TT and 1 TTT. ok, Gk there should be for climbers! But facts shows that is it at least as balanced as VWT.

So, this tour, IMO, shouldn't be part of this Déc Tour competition

Yes you and Ol are right!

Please take the Tour out from the competition!

The Italy and Germantour should also out, because in dezember its cold in Europe.

Greets Huns

December Tour

Message par lesossies » Ven Sep 10, 2010 11:33 pm
I fixed some rules for the design and the vote of the December Tour.

Tour limits:
10-14 days with maximal 1 rest day.
max. 1 day with half-races.

No extrem tour
( no Anden or Pavés Tour or extrem flat one)

Falls on you so early!
For me Bolivia was an extrem Flattour. Of this tour the pure Sprinteams have something fun.

But as I said, take the tour out.

[gaurain rx]

Well, I have a problem with Venezuela Winter Tour participating this competition.

IMO it's not a December Tour. It's an Extreme Flat Tour, which, if I'm right, is not the purpose of a Dec tour

You can tell that of course GC is not for sprinter but still :

7 completly flat stages, 2 flat stages, 1 TT, 2 MM, 1 moutain --> Extreme Tour.

Anden, considered as a an Etreme Mountain Tour has :

6 moutain stages, 5 MM, 2 flat, 1 TT and 1 TTT. ok, Gk there should be for climbers! But facts shows that is it at least as balanced as VWT.

So, this tour, IMO, shouldn't be part of this Déc Tour competition

Yes you and Ol are right!

Please take the Tour out from the competition!

The Italy and Germantour should also out, because in dezember its cold in Europe.

Greets Huns

December Tour

Message par lesossies » Ven Sep 10, 2010 11:33 pm
I fixed some rules for the design and the vote of the December Tour.

Tour limits:
10-14 days with maximal 1 rest day.
max. 1 day with half-races.

No extrem tour
( no Anden or Pavés Tour or extrem flat one)

Falls on you so early!
For me Bolivia was an extrem Flattour. Of this tour the pure Sprinteams have something fun.

But as I said, take the tour out.

It mlght not fall on you!

[Pirkio]

The same for me, if you want to apply the rules ok, but do it faster as possible let the people change their votes

[gaurain rx]

But point is, and that I agree with poke, only Ol' and me declared that they think that Venezuela is extreme flat... It doesn't "proove" it is! I only checked the Dec' tour today and as it was put in the votings, I think it should stay in. Just people should stay aware that it doesn't look like how a dec tour should be!

[luques]

I think Venezuela is a tour mostly flat (9 of 13 are flat stages).
To define a tour extreme i think that from next year we should start to speak about % of the total (for example not more than 70% stages of the same type, instead of saying like andes or pavè tour which is a bit subjective).

But i totally disagree with the elimination from the competition of Venezuela Tour.
The reason is simple, Huns posted the tour 4 days before the ending, now it's the 12/11, in 12 days we had about 50 votes and no one said nothing officially... the 4 days it was presented no reaction... now, it is one of the favo and so some people who don't want to play it or that want to increase the votes for other tours starts to whine? Where was you when the contest opened? AH, nice joke. Pretty ridiculous.

It's quite disgusting in my eyes how this contest which should show to the community and to the players some nice design, some new places, some experiments is rapidly turning into the trash of a political campaign.
I don't like the method of putting some shit on the other tours so that mine (or the one i like) is seen better, i prefer to support my tour (or the tour i like), criticize the other if i don't like them in a constructive way and congratulate them if they do a good work; and if my tour (or what i like) is not a succes, try to improve for the next year taking tips from other creators or voters.

It's not my style telling someone other you are unfair just because he beat me.
It's not my style telling that a tour is bad designed just because i don't want play it.
It's not my style and i don't like it.

@Info/Gaurain, don't take it as something against you, you came only today and understand you didn't notice before. It's more general, if Venezuela wasn't considered (or wasn't officially considered) a flat tour on 1st November, i don't see why it should on 12. Actually it is much more against the last-minute-mind-changer

P.S. Believe me or not, i would say the same things if Sulawesi had 30points or 5 or 1.

[Alkworld]

If the Venezuela is considered extremely flat or not, is relative and moreover subjective. IMO the only tour that deserves to be called extremely flat would be Qatar. Venezuela is mostly flat of course, but because of the TT, the hilly and the mountainous stage, I would definitely not call it extremely flat. But that's my opinion, nothing more. And as the rules were not that clear and counting the number of stage types would be sometimes subjective again (just look at stages 6 or 13 of the Andes, they are called "hilly", while they'd be mountain stages elsewhere), I see no reason to take the tour out of the competition. If you want to get rid of Venezuela, beat it with the votes!

PS: Just checked the Venezuela tour again: two stages for classic riders, two for climbers, one for TT riders, seven for sprinters, one could be for sprinters or classic riders. I certainly wouldn't like it and it's quite unbalanced, but I wouldn't call it extreme (my opinion again).

[Vea Olio]

mmmm....I think this is a Preudhomme forum...

[Hansa]

For me Venezuela is no ectrem Flat tour for me an extrem Flat tour is

1. Pure Timetrialist/Team Trial Team/ Sprinter win the tour
2. No classic or no mountain stage

So Venezuale have something for Mountainriders and for classics and the Classement clearly not for Sprinter or time trialists so not extrem flat, flat yes but not EXTREM

[Pokemon Club]

For me Venezuela is no ectrem Flat tour for me an extrem Flat tour is

1. Pure Timetrialist/Team Trial Team/ Sprinter win the tour
2. No classic or no mountain stage

So Venezuale have something for Mountainriders and for classics and the Classement clearly not for Sprinter or time trialists so not extrem flat, flat yes but not EXTREM

So Bolivia isn't extrem flat too ? And Andes isn't extrem mountain because there is 2 or 3 sprinter stages ?

[Hansa]

Bolivia won time trialists or not?

And there is a different between extreme flat and extrem mountainous you cant take this arguments for hillstages

Andes much stages for Mountainriders + classement for them
Venezuala much stages for Sprinter but the classement clearly not

[Pokemon Club]

Bolivia won time trialists or not?

And there is a different between extreme flat and extrem mountainous you cant take this arguments for hillstages

Andes much stages for Mountainriders + classement for them
Venezuala much stages for Sprinter but the classement clearly not

Sorry, but the classement argument isn't one for me. Venezuela is like Langkawi. If you except TT, there is 2 or 3 hilly/mountains stages + sprinters stages for the rest, easy to considere it like an exreme tour when 2/3 of stages are for only 1 style of riders.

[Vea Olio]

a Tour not for a mountain rider isn't a tour...in the best tour only one rider must arrive at the finishing stage...

[Robyklebt]

Venezuela: I saw 8 sprint stages when I checked, which for me is tooooo many, especially considering that many are very easy. Others saw 9, others 7 it seems. Extreme, take out? No. Vote for it? Me in the first round no for sure. Second round not sure, most likely not, but not impossible

Short analysis: I actually like the start of the tour a lot. Flat, hill sprinter/classic sprinter, TT, flat, wall. Nice. Yes, after the TT a harder stage could be an option, but why not let the flatter TT guys keep yellow, IF they were not to far back on stage 2? First 5 stages=very nice and very promising.

It's after that that IMO it goes downhill. 6+7 2 very easy sprints. Maybe one a bit harder would have been ok? Then a GC stage, not for pure climbers, but 80-70/superclassic/classic... GC wise Huber vs Leupold vs under 70 climbing TT guy. Here ok again, it saves this 3 day span a bit, but then it goes back to: sprint: 9 sprint, 10 sprint, the 3 can and usually will be blocked, 11 sprint, the +5 +2 finish here will be a sieb of weaker sprinters, an attack by other guys, caught back in the last km by the hordes of sprint helpers. 12 another sprint. And with these IMO pretty sure 8 sprints it actually is very possible that stage 2 becomes the 9th sprint stage. The mass of sprinter teams could then make that stage, who normally should be for classic sprinters/hill sprinters for some of the stronger flat sprinters too. 53-56 mountain, strong team. Stage 13 then is ok. Although it maybe doesn't really fit the whole tour, here then the fight becomes between the Leupolds and the Hubers.. with Hubers clearly favored due to the high percentages that will make the time loss bigger.

13 stages, no rest day it seems? Not sure how long the runner up in January will be, according to a FL preview 11 days only.. then if the right stages are cut this here might actually be a very good January tour:)

GITA in Italia:

++++ I like the name!
++ I like Veas enthusiasm for his designs.
negative: Badly designed. See the last stage, the circuit is a bit higher each time.
Not balanced, you need more sprint stages. Actually there are 2 clear ones and nr 1 seems to be one 2, the problem here then is the presentation. Stage 12.. .maybe could be one? But that one short hill before the finish seems quite steep. So I stick with 3 sprint stages, which is not as bad as it looks at first sight, but shows that in the end Vea needs to present his tour better. More information, less show. It's a real Zomegnan presentation right now.... lots of promises, but then half the stages will be cancelled, Blockhaus, the coppi stage etc...Same here, lots of promises of show, but in the end we don't get to really see what's planned, not enough info. And not all the mountain stages are really good either actually. Passo Lanciano? Booooring Zomegnanstage (that guy actually made lots of stages like this..) Why not a nice hard Monte Petrano stage?
Plus no rest day, ape dislikes that, and too cold, ape dislikes that. No chance for my vote.

SLIT:
----- the name
-- Poke won last year, I'd have made a break after that

Other than that I actually like that one quite well. Better than Japan 12, which I boycotted, wouldn't do that anymore, due to the cold. Like this one here, very underrated in the votes so far I think.
++++ Presentation, maybe the best one?
But ok, stages:
1 middle mountain 2 mountain 3 sprint, 4 middle mountain but IMO a sprint possible, nice fight, 5 mountain, 6 sprint, 7 long interesting TT.
Like this first week until the rest day. 2 sprints a third possible. 2 mountains,
Second week is good too:
sprint/hill sprint? nice stage, last sieb quite far, but then not flat, but slightly up and down, harder to get time back. 9 nice middle mountain stage, 10 mountain, hard mountain, then 4 km flat. Nice, now the 3 mountain stages kind of cover all important skills. first one classic climber, second one with downhill, third one some flat it necessary. 11 sprint 12 middle mountain 13 long mountain top arrival. So 4-5 sprints? Imo good. Can change from group to group too. 4 mountain stages, 1 TT, 3-4 middle mountain. Balanced tour from that point of view. GC favors Hubers, but ok too. Don't like so much here: Somehow think maybe first India, then Sri Lanka could have been better? The mountain stages in India seem less interesting somehow. Don't really allow for big time gains, last stage not either IMO. Then I really dislike stage 12, not sure why, but to me looks like a waste of time piece of shit useless stage at that point Maybe my least favorite stage of all tours.. not really sure why. And maybe not a rest day followed by 2 flat stages after the cool TT.
Another thing I really like is not TTT, we had lots of TTTs in the important races this year, a tour without one... good!
Still didn't get my vote, the name and Poke as repeat winner... but if it was in the second round it had good good chances to get my vote after all. IMO it's a good tour, clearly undervoted here so far.

More later, ape goes eating.

[NoPikouze]

Why does everyone care so much about how many sprint stages there are ? 2-3 can be nice, but what is the purpose of putting more of them in a 12 day tour ?

Moreover, there was just a tour of bolivia in 12 stages, with I believe at least 8 !! flat stages... And a lot of flat 1 day races. I dont think there is a lack of sprint stuff

[Robyklebt]

Obviously not everyone.
And who cares about Bolivia?
The December tour is one of the 2 "Winter Grand Tours". 1 The Andes. 2. Dec tour. So it's kind of nice to have something somehow balanced that gives something to as many types of riders as possible. Like a small GT.

Next: Winter tour.

Big big big big big negative: No tracks, no coordinates, no map. I don't know 100%, but I'm 96% sure it's the case, for reasons I don't really get Moscow never puts in the coordinates thing. Which would be nice... for the weather, the wind, see stuff on the map.

Otherwise: A good tour I think, not sure it's the best, but pretty good.
5 sprints
4 mountain stages
2 middle mountain stages.
1 ITT
1 TTT

The 2 middle mountain stages are not too hard, in some groups could be sprint stages too maybe? The 4 mountain stages, ok, not superb, what's missing is one where you can make a bit bigger differences. Biggest minus for me the TTT, which somehow wasn't needed. But on the other hand, it reopens the race a bit, a Huber without a TTT team will now have a smaller advantage against a climber with a good TTT team. Even though TTTs usually don't bring huge differences. So ok, can live with it.
Right now Winter Tour has my vote.. might still switch to SLIT or Nicaragua.