Winter season 2014-2015 - Calendar and discussion

[team fl]

What exactly is happening here now?

You are happening! And now me... weeee!!! the old offseason mafia!

[cataracs]

What exactly is happening here now?

What your friend decided

[cataracs]

Would be cool if someone (OL ?) clean the thread where the tours are posted , keep only the tours there and remove the other posts here maybe.
what about the off season classics ? @OL

[olmania]

Would be cool if someone (OL ?) clean the thread where the tours are posted , keep only the tours there and remove the other posts here maybe.
what about the off season classics ? @OL

I am just back now, I will try to do this soon

About off season classics ... no idea

[Robyklebt]

About off season classics... no idea

Still no idea?
If not, too bad. The result would be: You just made any improvement for the off season classics very unlikely. Since you more than once posted that you thought the way of doing it in past years was bad, the result unbalanced, everything decided by a "lobby" you sort of mobbed everybody into silence on this topic. I mean, there was a certain number of people in the past that tried to improve the off season calendar, instead of "thank you" for trying, they get told they are bad, they are a lobby. So who wants to stick out his neck now? Why not make an effort to actually improve the off season calendar and work with the people that answered here? It would show that you are man enough to work with others, even with me, despite your stated dislike for me ("I can't stand you, that's why I won't congratulate you on your win" is what you told me once after all. Not an exact quote)

So, OL, why not show that you actually want to improve the winter calendar. And keep working here, instead of in the end sabotaging every effort that has been done to improve the winter calendar. The goal is the same, the way different, no reason no solution can be found. Unless of course you are what you wrongly accuse others of being. A guy who says no to every change (of your plan in this case)

[Pokemon Club]

Well now vote are open for fantasy tours let's discuss a bit about fantasy classics.
Last year there was 15 :
- 5 cat 3 : Bolkow-Bolkow / Gran Premio de Lanzarote /GP de Brescia /Boucles de Wallis et Futuna /GP de Letzbuerg
-10 cat 2 : Gp de Bielsko-Biala /Japan Cup /Mosell Cup /GP de Canyon de Chelly /Kampala-Kiboga /Tour de Okinawa /San Benito - Matagalpa /Kisoro-Kabale /GP Coimbra /Ballarat ITT (I don't talk about christmas stuff like Tour de Herne, La St Sylv, etc, I think it is specials stuff)

Let's say the 5 cat. 3 races are our fantasy monuments.
What do you think about a vote between old fantasy cat.2 race, cat.1 we already rode and you think it was enough good to be promote in cat.2 and new creations ? All old cat.2 in the contest, then all manager can propose a race, new or not. What do you think ?

[luques]

Let's say the 5 cat. 3 races are our fantasy monuments.
What do you think about a vote between old fantasy cat.2 race, cat.1 we already rode and you think it was enough good to be promote in cat.2 and new creations ? All old cat.2 in the contest, then all manager can propose a race, new or not. What do you think ?

Not a bad idea, but needs time and there is also the December Tour to organize.
I think we should also implement some limits about proposals... otherwise the choice would be really too big.

That said there will be cat3 races, cat2 races but also cat 1 that as usual Leso (or anyother who can) will choose?

[Pokemon Club]

Let's say the 5 cat. 3 races are our fantasy monuments.
What do you think about a vote between old fantasy cat.2 race, cat.1 we already rode and you think it was enough good to be promote in cat.2 and new creations ? All old cat.2 in the contest, then all manager can propose a race, new or not. What do you think ?

Not a bad idea, but needs time and there is also the December Tour to organize.
I think we should also implement some limits about proposals... otherwise the choice would be really too big.

That said there will be cat3 races, cat2 races but also cat 1 that as usual Leso (or anyother who can) will choose?

Yep, for December it rests 2 weeks before we open the topic, so we have 2 weeks before that.
For limit you mean the longer of the race, number of riders things like that ?

[luques]

Let's say the 5 cat. 3 races are our fantasy monuments.
What do you think about a vote between old fantasy cat.2 race, cat.1 we already rode and you think it was enough good to be promote in cat.2 and new creations ? All old cat.2 in the contest, then all manager can propose a race, new or not. What do you think ?

Not a bad idea, but needs time and there is also the December Tour to organize.
I think we should also implement some limits about proposals... otherwise the choice would be really too big.

That said there will be cat3 races, cat2 races but also cat 1 that as usual Leso (or anyother who can) will choose?

Yep, for December it rests 2 weeks before we open the topic, so we have 2 weeks before that.
For limit you mean the longer of the race, number of riders things like that ?

Nono, that should be free imo for the designer. With limit I mean that if managers can propose new races and new creation we have to set a limit on how much things he can propose. For example 5 races proposed for each manager (I mean, I propose 5, poke 5, roby 5 etc..., no more), otherwise the choice would become too big.

[Pokemon Club]

Let's say the 5 cat. 3 races are our fantasy monuments.
What do you think about a vote between old fantasy cat.2 race, cat.1 we already rode and you think it was enough good to be promote in cat.2 and new creations ? All old cat.2 in the contest, then all manager can propose a race, new or not. What do you think ?

Not a bad idea, but needs time and there is also the December Tour to organize.
I think we should also implement some limits about proposals... otherwise the choice would be really too big.

That said there will be cat3 races, cat2 races but also cat 1 that as usual Leso (or anyother who can) will choose?

Yep, for December it rests 2 weeks before we open the topic, so we have 2 weeks before that.
For limit you mean the longer of the race, number of riders things like that ?

Nono, that should be free imo for the designer. With limit I mean that if managers can propose new races and new creation we have to set a limit on how much things he can propose. For example 5 races proposed for each manager (I mean, I propose 5, poke 5, roby 5 etc..., no more), otherwise the choice would become too big.

Ah ! Bah I think propose 1-2 is already enough. if 10 managers propose 2 races for example, we have already 30, it is a lot

[Pokemon Club]

We just realize there was a mistake in the calendar so I update it. I profite to change a bit the place of some tours, now all tours-contest winners will have a free spot without tours in parallele, second and third will be always at the same time of Andes, December Tour or January Tour.

[Robyklebt]

Well now vote are open for fantasy tours let's discuss a bit about fantasy classics.
Last year there was 15 :
- 5 cat 3 : Bolkow-Bolkow / Gran Premio de Lanzarote /GP de Brescia /Boucles de Wallis et Futuna /GP de Letzbuerg
-10 cat 2 : Gp de Bielsko-Biala /Japan Cup /Mosell Cup /GP de Canyon de Chelly /Kampala-Kiboga /Tour de Okinawa /San Benito - Matagalpa /Kisoro-Kabale /GP Coimbra /Ballarat ITT (I don't talk about christmas stuff like Tour de Herne, La St Sylv, etc, I think it is specials stuff)

Let's say the 5 cat. 3 races are our fantasy monuments.
What do you think about a vote between old fantasy cat.2 race, cat.1 we already rode and you think it was enough good to be promote in cat.2 and new creations ? All old cat.2 in the contest, then all manager can propose a race, new or not. What do you think ?

Grrrrrrr, why did I make a list of the cat 2 of last year if then you ignore it and put a wrong list on? Grrrr
Japan Cup has nothing to do with fantasy, real race
Okinawa the same (real but really unimportant)
And somehow think there were more cat 2, but maybe that's all that christmas stuff

Other things.
I still don't think we need pavé "classics" Pavé is already very well represented in the off season with the pavé tour and Sachsen pavé. 2 specialized tours. And the always changing Pavé de Noel. Just have the hopefully now usual again 2 pavé races per month as cat 1, and all is ok. By being pavé they are already special anyway.

More stuff on weekdays! The classics aren't there only for motivation, as goals, but also so to even out a bit the points given out during tours and one day races. By putting them always on the same day you "penalize" those that can't always ride on weekends. So some more stuff during the week wouldn't hurt.

Cat 3 IMO it could be the 7 you proposed. Or 8, since Letzebuerg in your proposal seems already fix. Not sure why, but ok if it has to be fix then let it be fix. Long live democracy Anyway, no need to just keep the 5 we have. A vote wouldn't hurt. BUT only between cat 2+cat3 races from the winter before.
Your proposal there was
2 hilly
2 sprint
1 TT/TTT
1 HC
1 pavé
1 Letzebuerg
As I said I'm opposed to the pavé one. And instead of having a "Letzebuerg" category why not just make it 3 hilly ones? So 7

3 hilly
2 sprint or light hilly
1 HC
1 TT/ITT

And have a vote.

Cat 2, your proposal sounds sensible, even if I haven't really understood the nominating thing. So I can either design ONE race (or one per category?) or nominate ONE?

The 2 votes, cat 3 and cat 2 of course can be combined. Example sprint, old ones, new ones in, but only the ones that were at least cat 2 last winter are eligible to become cat 3.

Ah, one more thing, don't forget the national championships in late october. Right now you want a classic there, no good, NC!

Ah, can you just tell us or me in what category our existing cat 3 races would be?
My guess is:
BB: Hilly
Brescia: Hilly
Lanzarote: Sprint light hilly
Letzebuerg: hilly
Wallis: mostly shitty ok ok, hilly I guess

What would your categorization be for those 5?

[Pokemon Club]

Grrrrrrr, why did I make a list of the cat 2 of last year if then you ignore it and put a wrong list on? Grrrr
Japan Cup has nothing to do with fantasy, real race
Okinawa the same (real but really unimportant)

I totally forgot you already made the list
So we had 21 fantasy, 5 cat. 3 and 16 cat. 2 last year.
Let's say les Pavés de Noel is fix for 24.12, La St Sylv and Catania - Etna for 31.12 and GP Letzebuerg for 01.01.

If you want more stuff the week end we can put a cat. 3 each sunday or saturday in November and December ? We have 9 WE during this period so it will make 9 cat. 3. In this case we will probably need 12-15 cat 2 during the week or october/january week end. But it is too much maybe ?

Anyway, no need a categorization races as "hilly" or "pave" I think, let's see what we will have.

And for the vote....Don't know. Vote between cat. 2 and cat. 3 races to determinate cat 3 and between cat. 2 and proposals to determinate cat. 2 ?

[Robyklebt]

Categorizing is kind of nice, mostly to make sure we get something for sprinters too. And something decent. I think the risk in a "general/open" vote is that in the end the hilly stuff gets more votes. And if there is a sprint one in, it will be an extreme one, a completely flat one. So I'm for those categories.

[Pokemon Club]

Can make it in 2 parts maybe, "flat/light hilly" and "hilly/mountain". But it will make a lot of vote topic without a lot of time for that

[team fl]

Can make it in 2 parts maybe, "flat/light hilly" and "hilly/mountain". But it will make a lot of vote topic without a lot of time for that

I am so happy you mentioned the time left, and even more happy to quote OL on that, bolding out the important stuff and reminding myself that the offseason calender last year was done by the 17th September... :

Again, the idea would have to get everything planned in advance so people know what to expect for winter and can start thinking about it and wait for it. Hopefully this could help us to not loose some players at the end of real cycling season.Also, this would imply investment in design and vote for it. Every time we do it, people design, even the ones who are not designing all year long. If we put it in the news and communicate about it in September, people will come vote for it. Having something a bit new for this winter and well-planned where people can feel implied in would be only a great thing for the community. That´s why instead of using our old system that consists of having the 3-4 mains races + 5-6 single day races barely planned a month before and randomly add fantasy tours as we can ... it would be great to have everything organised in advance to get people into it and not only think as winter as : Andes + Dec Tour + a shitload of cat1 races and moneytours and just waiting for end of January

[Robyklebt]

You're not being helpful FL
Plus it's really my job to highlight OL's hypocrisy or cluelessness.
But anyway, it's the lobbyists and french politicians fault this here has dragged out for so long.
Ah, and don't think it was all done by sept 17 last year either....

Back to productive Poke:

Categorizing it wouldn't really need more votes I think? There is a maximum of options for votes I think, 15 maybe? So even if you want to do it all in one vote.... not really possible and you'll need more than one topic.
By having it split up in categories it's more logic and easier too. Depending on the number of submissions one cat. one vote, top x vote getters get cat 3 if eligible, other top voter getters cat 2.
But ok, maybe missing something, how would you do the vote exactly? And maybe need to move forward a bit, decide the final number of cat 2 and cat 3 races and then sooner or later open the nomination/creation topic? 9 weekends of Cat 3 in Nov. + Dec.: If Bolkow-Bolkow and Brescia stay cat 3 and Mosella (brrrr) gets cat 3 (which IMO is not unlikely) we'd have 3 races that really would need to be ridden end of oct/early nov. IF they are all cat 3, I'd really be for having them very early, maybe like oct 29 one, parallel to what should be SAchsen, followed by the other 2 on the next weekend.

Oh, short not really well thought out RKL/Donkey proposal for dates:
29/10 cat 3
01/11 cat 3
02/11 cat 3
06/11 cat 2 parallel to 5 day tour
11/11 cat 2 parallel to Andes and paralleltour, give those that don't ride either some points too
16/11 cat 3 classic parallel to Andes
19/11 cat 2
23/11 cat 2
25/11 cat 2
29/11 cat 3 saturday not sunday so that the dec tour starters have one day recovery (if that 01/12 start is fix)

Would be 5 cat 2, 5 cat 3 late october/november, a bit too many cat 3 maybe, but that's due to the weather thing too. And IMO important to give some "important" races during the Andes too, so that those that won't ride it, and not going for parallel tours either have something too.

Dec:
03/12 cat 2
06/12 cat 3, parallel only to dec tour
08/12 cat 2 parallel only to dec tour
11/12 cat 2 parallel to dec and money tour
15/12 cat 3 nothing parallel for once
18/12 cat 2 parallel to fantasy tour
21/12 cat 2 parallel to fantasy tour
27/12 cat 2 parallel to christmas tour
28/12 cat 3 parallel to christmas tour

Plus the christmas stuff and so on, which I don't really understand myself.
Here would be 6 cat 2, 3 cat 3, plus probably some more cat 3 with the christmas stuff.

Jan:
01/01 Letztebuerg, undemocratic!!! hihi
04/01 cat 2,
08/01 cat 2 paralle only to Jan tour
11/01 cat 3
13/01 cat 2 parallel to Jan tour
17/01 cat 2 parallel to pavé,
18/01 cat 3 last cat 3 of the season

3 cat 3, 4 cat 2

15 cat 2, 11 cat 3
Actually a bit too many cat 3 compared to cat 2 for my taste, not perfect, especially since some of the christmas thing would be cat 3 too, so drop some of the cat 3 I proposed and change them to cat 2. 11/01 for example, or do Brescia on 16/11 if it's voted in and drop the one date early nov.... stuff like this. So would be 17-9, better IMO.

[Team Australia]

We just realize there was a mistake in the calendar so I update it. I profite to change a bit the place of some tours, now all tours-contest winners will have a free spot without tours in parallele, second and third will be always at the same time of Andes, December Tour or January Tour.

Sorry if this has been said before or you calendar is already outdated, but just one small hint: If you have exactly 1 winter classic "mountain", a day during Andes might not be the right time to do this. Or in fact - it's probably the worst possible moment in off-season. Much less competition then, since most good climbers are in South America.

Bolkow-Bolkow looks great fun by the way, really like this one

[Pokemon Club]

We just realize there was a mistake in the calendar so I update it. I profite to change a bit the place of some tours, now all tours-contest winners will have a free spot without tours in parallele, second and third will be always at the same time of Andes, December Tour or January Tour.

Sorry if this has been said before or you calendar is already outdated, but just one small hint: If you have exactly 1 winter classic "mountain", a day during Andes might not be the right time to do this. Or in fact - it's probably the worst possible moment in off-season. Much less competition then, since most good climbers are in South America.

Bolkow-Bolkow looks great fun by the way, really like this one

Hum I don't think it is a problem to have a big mountain races // Andes, anyway looks dead for winter classics for this year, we will have it as usual probably ^^

And Bolkow-Bolkow I prefer lasy year version but looks more interesting with this way

[luques]

We just realize there was a mistake in the calendar so I update it. I profite to change a bit the place of some tours, now all tours-contest winners will have a free spot without tours in parallele, second and third will be always at the same time of Andes, December Tour or January Tour.

Sorry if this has been said before or you calendar is already outdated, but just one small hint: If you have exactly 1 winter classic "mountain", a day during Andes might not be the right time to do this. Or in fact - it's probably the worst possible moment in off-season. Much less competition then, since most good climbers are in South America.

Bolkow-Bolkow looks great fun by the way, really like this one

Hum I don't think it is a problem to have a big mountain races // Andes, anyway looks dead for winter classics for this year, we will have it as usual probably ^^

And Bolkow-Bolkow I prefer lasy year version but looks more interesting with this way

One thing about Andes. Partecipation is quite low, but still not much different then last year. In my opinion was an error to put in // a long tour (even if I also supported the idea). Actually I can see this 2 facts:

1) New players have no interest in Andes, while for some "old" players it is one of the big races of the year (as a 4th GT) for the newbies it's just a fantasy race as anybody else. So they don't see an extra to inscribe there.

2) Andes is (in general) a money burning tour, for this reason many opt for the // program, if we put also a long and easiest tour, choosing Andes will be really hard for a newbie. Why do I have to waste money and time in Andes?

[Moscow Team Pro]

SANTOS DOWN UNDER TOUR 2015








TOUR DES FILIPINAS 2015

[team fl]

Is this a fantasy race or the actual real race?

[luques]

Is this a fantasy race or the actual real race?

I think the real one, as the .gpx files are available online.

Don't know how much accurate though.

[Rockstar Inc]

Santos Tour Down Under should be in the january thread

[Moscow Team Pro]

what is "accurate"? I take the files provided by the official website, gpm, intermediate ... I do not understand what it's accurate.


I repeat what I said to OL, "I do this for fun, do it for money, glory or honor, if not good patience. Re-do you, I can do about it"