Winter season 2014-2015 - Calendar and discussion

[Pokemon Club]

No need to cancel plans.
For old classics the plans isn't to out them like that of RSF but to let a chance of some others races to become a classics. Some voting between good old classics (which for some of them are here since very long time) and new creations is a good thing IMO.
More important some contest will maybe help to find some news designers, or maybe give some more interest for some people who want to start that. December Tour already here for that, but draw a 2 weeks race can be too long for some. Anyway need to have some news designers because leso can't do it alone, and if guys who help him for designing have less time it is just the end of the game.

[Hunsrueck]

And why are you asking about?
You've got 90% of the fantasy races selected by Poke, SM, Luques and you.
Why should then draw others are still racing.

[Pokemon Club]

You've got 90% of the fantasy races selected by Poke, SM, Luques and you.

By me ? Looks a good joke.

[Hunsrueck]

You've got 90% of the fantasy races selected by Poke, SM, Luques and you.

By me ? Looks a good joke.

Looking in July:
Luques 7
OL 6
SM 6
Poke 4
Libby 1
Huns 1
Leso 1
RSV 1

[Pokemon Club]

You've got 90% of the fantasy races selected by Poke, SM, Luques and you.

By me ? Looks a good joke.

Looking in July:
Luques 7
OL 6
SM 6
Poke 4
Libby 1
Huns 1
Leso 1
RSV 1

And if you look since the start of the year ?

[olmania]

and maybe the ones getting the most races in calendar are the ones who design the most ?
Races from Luques, SM et I are the ones which are the most present in the database for info, and far in front of others.
Also it depends of the season, I mean if you draw 20 races today, you have good chances to see 15 of them in the calendar in the next 3-4months

And anyway, we barely do not miss people to draw fantasy races. but to draw official ones when it needs to rush, we can easily lack designers. look all the official races that have been drawn the last days to implement August calendar few days before end of July ... 46stages just for the tours !! Do you realize how much work it was ? if Leso and Poke were in holidays f.e, right now, we would have almost nothing ! But they were here and had time to rush and make everything good on time !
it's only few designers now, it can seem to be enough, but if 2 or 3 disappear for some months and leso lacks time ... there is a problem then !

Back to real topic. I think I can open topic about the small fantasy tours, right ?
And we still can discuss what to do with one-day winter classics

[Hunsrueck]

Ridiculous, why should I ever waste my time on new race if a lot were not in the calendar?
There are still plenty of new races by me in the database.
The same goes for small tours.

[olmania]

Ridiculous, why should I ever waste my time on new race if a lot were not in the calendar?
There are still plenty of new races by me in the database.
The same goes for small tours.

You have some races left in DB, not more than others.
Feel free to propose these tour for off-season votes
Also, many of your races have wrong definition, for example, when I look for Mountain Race, I find this ... so you can understand I choose HC race from others as yours are not HC races (and when I look for hilly races, I don't see them of course) :







Also can find such races :
We already have hundreds of official races with that ultra boring profile in calendar, be more original in designing !
We can of course have boring flat fantasy races with not a single sieb, or HC race with a final short climb after 160kms of flat, but we won't have many per month, especially when official calendar is full of them

[lennylenny]

Or make some crazy tours like i did Hundsrueck.
One with 60km ITT, one mountain stage and one stage with mountains, but downhill at the end.
Other with some normal stages, but a 37km ITT with 25km **cobble and some steep downhill km

If you make races with a normal profile, others can vote foe it, but they also can vote for other toura with nearly the same profile. If you make crazy tours, they will love or hate it, but if they live it, they have to vote for it, cause it is special and noone else has a tour with a profile like that

[Hunsrueck]

As long as those muggins like the DesignKing OL make the calendar I draw nothing more!

My races are boring? OK. That's your point of view, i do not see any differences among the races in the calendar.
I could now post your creative races here also, but is too stupid to me

So the game has just lost a race designer. But it's not as bad as they were not creative enough anyway.

[Cerro Torre RT]

Sorry but that one example I have to argue about



How the hell can a race like that, with 30km climbs of like 1500m hight difference can be classified as something else then a HC race. Not every HC has to end with a climb. Not every HC has to be won by a climber, as well as not every course of medium difficulty has to be won by a classic rider. Thinking that way will kill a lot of deversity. That one, for example, I'd say would be a very interesting one.

[olmania]

As long as those muggins like the DesignKing OL make the calendar I draw nothing more!

My races are boring? OK. That's your point of view, i do not see any differences among the races in the calendar.
I could now post your creative races here also, but is too stupid to me

So the game has just lost a race designer. But it's not as bad as they were not creative enough anyway.

Draw official races instead of crying that I am the bad guy not taking your races. For info, I was not touching anything in the calendar for years, and I am still not doing a lot there. Just helping when needed time to time. So, yeah ... it's me doing the bad thing => not selecting enough of your fantasy races for years ... sure the reason is me ? and btw, as I said, all designers have plenty of races not used that are still in the DB, so of course you are the only one with races left aside

Boring and classic races are somehow needed, I just say it's normal that the ones in reserve, yours or mine, whatever, are the ones the less selected aka boring ones.

That Flat/Hilly/HC classification is based on the real classification, of GT f.e and look a bit at the GTs stages with lots of mountain/hills but a long rolling end, they don't get the HC classification. Also, that Flat/Hilly/HC is a the tool we use to filter the races before selecting them if we need them, so yeah, sorry, but when we want a race for climbers as topfavos, we don't check all the ones classified as Flat or Hilly, just in case ...

@cerro : about that race, a sprinter with 60+uphill could easily win it with a good support. Should we give the HC status from the moment the race goes over a certain average %/km ? even if last 100kms are flat ? what about races with 200kms flat and last km at 6%, should it be called flat ?

[Hunsrueck]

1. My races were often in the calendar before your fingers came into play

2. Does not it say Fantasy race? Thus, the designer has some freedom to categorize the races.
Have a look to Austria Stage 5!

3. I have at the beginning of the year trying to coordinate the calendar something.
-which is driven
-what to draw
-what is online or the same like last year and so on
Then took over moscow and it did not work anymore. Individual races and tours were drawn twice and after that I have no desire.

Look here in July or August: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4185
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4232
Do you call that date? What is left to do what is already done?
Wallonie and Portugal has not yet appear to be online and have not yet drawn also.
I think you know what i mean.

[Cerro Torre RT]

@cerro : about that race, a sprinter with 60+uphill could easily win it with a good support. Should we give the HC status from the moment the race goes over a certain average %/km ? even if last 100kms are flat ? what about races with 200kms flat and last km at 6%, should it be called flat ?

My thought to your last question: yes, indeed. Something with 200 hm is a flat race, no matter where those climbs are. Something with 3000 hm is a high mountain stage, because there are high and long passes to cross. (seldom, you might have that a bumpy race that you collect 3000 hm or more with climbs all shorter than 4 km, but that's rare). For me, the classification just means a lot to climb, quite something to climb, nearly nothig to climb. Not who might win it. By the way, you wouldn't call the last one a HC, just because a climber is the most probable winner, would you?

[olmania]

I am not going to give you answer a long answer. It's senseless as it would be only a loss of time cause you seem to know everything and be sure of how the best it should work. Anyway,

1) Just a question, when did my fingers came into the play in your opinion ?

2) Freedom to categorize the race how you want is yours. Then, it does not come to our eyes when we filter them and look for specific races and if we just find something else than expected, not a surprise we don't take it. Just saying.

3) Feel free to do your awesome work again (and to draw some official races if you have time for).
Portugal was not so legitimate and no one had time to draw it. Wallonie, I don't remember, maybe info not online or whatever anyway.
Almost full August calendar is online since 3days, which is not something that happened many times in the past. How many times we had to plan our forms by looking at websites of the tours cause not drawn yet ?
46 stages drawn by 2-3 designers + some 1 day races, in less than a week ! And you come complain about Portugal, seriously ... no point to go further in explanations ... senseless as I said.

ps: Not sure I got that part :

Look here in July or August: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4185
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4232
Do you call that date? What is left to do what is already done?
Wallonie and Portugal has not yet appear to be online and have not yet drawn also.
I think you know what i mean.

[Pokemon Club]

For Cerro : of course HC, climbers, classics, sprinters, escapers can win it, it just depends how teams ride it, can be completely different between field A and field B

For Hunsrueck : Sometimes we have a lot of our race in a short period in calendar, sometimes nothing, I don't think it is the problem. I remember a period before I started designing where there is nearly no race in the database, I don't want it happens again. I totally doesn't if we ride a month with full Hunsrueck, Pokemon or Cerro fantasy race, if we have a race we can enjoy with the community. After if our race are in calendar good, if no it isn't dramatic, maybe we will ride it one day.

[olmania]

@cerro : about that race, a sprinter with 60+uphill could easily win it with a good support. Should we give the HC status from the moment the race goes over a certain average %/km ? even if last 100kms are flat ? what about races with 200kms flat and last km at 6%, should it be called flat ?

My thought to your last question: yes, indeed. Something with 200 hm is a flat race, no matter where those climbs are. Something with 3000 hm is a high mountain stage, because there are high and long passes to cross. (seldom, you might have that a bumpy race that you collect 3000 hm or more with climbs all shorter than 4 km, but that's rare). For me, the classification just means a lot to climb, quite something to climb, nearly nothig to climb. Not who might win it. By the way, you wouldn't call the last one a HC, just because a climber is the most probable winner, would you?

The thing is that I think a bit differently cause of the possible winners, yes, and the sprint points.
I mean, a flat stage with a short uphill finish will be flat in general, no big mountains to climbs, but will still be won by a strong classic or climber and some gaps will be easily created. In that case, I have a problem to give the points for green as maximum (flat stage). I think it's understandable to classify the race according to its general aspect, but also about it's last kms, cause it's in these last kms that the winner comes out. So, I d not call the 200kms flat race with a 10% last km a flat one.
We have a different opinion about it. Why not, but when I think about the green jersey, that gives it to the best sprinter, I don't feel that giving max points to summit arrival like if it was a mass sprint is something logical. but I can understand your point of view, and actually your point of view makes sense for amateur riding I d say (not in competition).

Coming back to our RSF profiles, this categorization helps us to look for races. Cause by HC we think that a climber has more chances to get it than a sprinter. We try to vary the races for the calendar, so we look for some kind of profiles, and when I think that it lacks a race for climbers in a certain week, finding a HC stage that a climber would never win is not helpful.

[cataracs]

Wallonie was finished in time...and Portugal I could easily finish it since I had all the stages stuff earlier this month but didn't felt we need another tour on the calendar and 3 teams per race.
@huns : just do real races we all agree ol is a bad guy

[Robyklebt]

How about going back to the Winter calendar?

Then, better cancel all plans of doing something new, if people are just ok working with old system where 5 old players decided which races to race and plan it just few days before it ...

Well, lying and misrepresenting what happened in the past certainly seems a brilliant way of starting something new... In 2012 NoPikouze opened the topic in June. So much for "plan it just a few days before). In 2013 the discussion started on September 17th, again, a few days before is not what I would call that. 5 old players? The thread was open to anybody to post.
So far in this thread it's even less than 5 players discussing about the topic.... probably something to do with the one sided "allow no other opinion" way you have been posting.

Anyway, you want to do something new, basically re-invent the wheel. Ok, what's the advantages? You wrote a bit about that.

Community decides by vote: Well.... just look at the Dec Tours votes, how horrible the participation is there really. Now vote for all classics too? We'll have 20 people voting. I'd rather have 5 people discussing and deciding than 20 people voting.

Diversity: If you had actually shown some respect to those who did the work before, and copied the classics from last year you'd have discovered that there WAS diversity. Of course easier just to claim something that fits what you want. But ok, I'll do what really would have been your work, I list the classics we had last winter.

October:

category 2

Bielsko Biala, Poland, hilly, since 2010, classic one year later, like all others too
Mosellcup, Germany, light pavé, light hill, since 2007,

category 3
Bolkow -Bolwok, Poland, hilly, since 2007
All three in October because of the weather.

November:

cat 2:
Canyon de Chelly, US, flatish, hill sprinter, since 2012
Kampala-Kibogo, Uganda, flat, since 2012

cat 3:
Wallis et Futuna, hill sprinter-classic sprinter, since 2010
GP Brescia: Hilly, since 2007
Lanzarote: Hilly, but possible for sprinters, surprising amount of sprinters won it last year. since 2010

nothing for climbers, but sprinters get 1 pretty sure, 2 with chances, if some mountain at least.


December:

cat 2

Kisoro-Kabale, hilly, since 2012
San Benito, Matagalpa, climbers, chances for classics I think. since 2012
GP Coimbra: hilly circuit, max 5, finish -2, possible for sprinters I'd say, first edition.
Pavé de Noel: hilly, pavé, always changing somehow, since 2007?
Christmas Island, Hilly, since 2012
Tour de Herne: hilly, pavé, as jubilee race
Catania-Etna, HC, climbers, since 2012
La St Sylvestre: flat, since 2007 (probably with changing route)

2 climbers, 1 sprint, 1 possible sprint, 2 something with pavé and hills, 2 hilly, there is diversity again

January:

cat 2

Colombo-Agablablablabla, hilly, since 2010
Coupe de Guadeloupe: hilly, since 2012, break in 2013
Novo Hamburgo-Caxias do Sul, hilly, 2013
Papeete TTT, since 2013

cat 3

GP Letztebuerg, hilly, since 2007

Here yes, in January all hilly, except the TTT

Overall, of course the hilly type is prevalent, as it is in real classics too...

That's it for one day races.... here you have what we had last year... so what does anybody think to do with those?

stage races: First off, need to stay flexible, last year the participation in winter was horrible at RSF. If it's again like this, less tours than the ones proposed would be ok. Need to see how it will be this year. Fixing it already now? Too early.
Second: IMO nice to have the real race designers have their fantasy tours in the winter, as "prize" for their hard work during the real season. Wasn't an official policy, but IMO leso ended up giving the real race designers precedence if he had more than one tour that fit what he wanted. Should stay like that IMO, rather no vote but precendence for OL, Luques, POke, leso etc for short tours this year, that's the guys that designed most of the real races I think. Ah, Taka too, and Hunsrück early in the year maybe. Better their tours, even if they aren't that good than a fantastic RKL creation, since RKL designed nothing this year. Or SM idiocies, help.
You want to vote for everything.. .I say on tours, less votes are better, keep it at the important one, dec tour, that's what makes it special. For the others stay flexible, reward the summer workers with their fantasy tour, adjust the number depending on participation etc.

Anyway, are you (OL) ready to discuss properly, some openness for other ideas or do you just want to ram your ideas down everybodiy's throat? Because so far it looks like the throat thing, an opening post, ignoring basically everything that happened before, refusing to properly show/represent what was done in the past years, misrepresent what was ridden last year .If that's the plan, then well, probably it's better not to do anything new.

[olmania]

I already wrote why we think that a bit of change and re-organization would be not bad, I will try to answer you on few points.

So far in this thread it's even less than 5 players discussing about the topic.... probably something to do with the one sided "allow no other opinion" way you have been posting.

I agree, having less people active to read and participate on forum is a bad thing. But what can we do ?
At least everytime there is a news with a link to the forum, trafic increases.

Now vote for all classics too? We'll have 20 people voting. I'd rather have 5 people discussing and deciding than 20 people voting.

No way ! Having 5 people discussing, always the same ones (like in French politics) ... makes no sense and gives only the same talks and reactions, better give more people a power to choose. Even if they are less involved in the process of designing, they can appreciate the design work and choose what they like ! Always better to involve more players. Don´t you think a constitutional monarchy is better than a feodal one ?

We'll have 20 people voting.

Lie. We had more than 50 last year. I am sure we can get more with a better/stronger communication in news and chat races.

Overall, of course the hilly type is prevalent, as it is in real classics too...

We were thinking of giving a real balance in this off season calendar in order that even small teams not able to be competitive on all fields could be interested in it. Having way >50% of hilly races, why not ... but I think that finding a better balance might be a plus. As it's winter classic calendar, something fantasy, we do not need to copy the real classic season and also find a big part of hilly races.

IMO nice to have the real race designers have their fantasy tours in the winter, as "prize" for their hard work during the real season. Wasn't an official policy, but IMO leso ended up giving the real race designers precedence if he had more than one tour that fit what he wanted. Should stay like that IMO, rather no vote but precendence for OL, Luques, POke, leso etc for short tours this year, that's the guys that designed most of the real races I think.

I do not think that the designer themselves are interested to see only their races in winter season. Having a calendar full of Luques/Poke/Leso/OL/Huns races in winter, as it's full of their races rest of the year ... sure ? And also, I think that the designers are really interested by the competition, and definitely not against it. If you look at who won past competition the last 2 years, only not so regular of official race getting a p2 was FL in 2012. p1 and other p2 went to guys like luques, poke or huns Official designers have a supposed advantage for these competition as they are skilled and trained for it, thanks to their year long work, why should they not want some competition instead of being sure to get their tours in the calendar ?

Also, if we get 15 designers proposing stuff, it means that about half of them are "new" ones. And they might like designing and be interesting in designing more later, fantasy races, but also maybe official ones. Especially if we launch the competition now, in summer time, we might have lots of new players, who have time. Some of them might get interested in that and like RSF more, thanks to that.

Instead of closing the gates of the design in RSF, we want to open them, and would be happy to teach a bit to our new designers (hello rasta!).
Think that when Poke and Luques got their tours chosen, it was somehow their beginnings as designers, and after that they continued designing and are now the ones doing a huge work for official and fantasy races !

About the one day classic, I will wait a bit. But about the fantasy tours, I really think to open the thread tomorrow, and in 4 weeks, we will see how many designers are into it, and if it was worth proposing it. Then we will see also for the votes.

I say on tours, less votes are better, keep it at the important one, dec tour, that's what makes it special.

December tour is special anyway, designing and racing a 2 weeks race is unique in RSF. Not everybody have the skills and patience to design a 2 weeks tour that looks at least ok that you could imagine giving your vote for it. It's special anyway. Having a vote for something else (especially if 1-2months before), does not alter the specificness of our beloved Dec Tour imo

To conclude, we have doubts about the one day races, as yes, we have some history. But doing the same every year, with some random changes that 97% of players see but do not realize how it happened and why ... mhh. Voting for them was proposition. Giving a real balance of race type all winter long was another one. To bring 2 news things for that new calendar proposal. We can of course use some/many of the old profiles and make them fit to that proposition. Or not. We can just do nothing, have the same lobby of few designers/players making and choosing everything how they think if it's the best, even if we were asking 10more people to vote, the results could be different.

[Cerro Torre RT]

Well, my view about "classic" one day races in december is shifted towards Roby's view. For me, a good classic race has a certain kind of history, which can be build by riding it every year. Well, for fantasy races, somewhen some races were chosen, and those have build up as much of a history as possible in RSF. Thus, in my eyes, those races should be the base of the higher categorized races. Doesn't mean that every one of them has to stay where it is, but quite a lot of them should be ridden.

Those I value most are:

Coppa Mosella
Tour de Pavés
GP Letzeburg

And I would really hate to lose one of them.

[Robyklebt]

I already wrote why we think that a bit of change and re-organization would be not bad, I will try to answer you on few points.

A bit of change? Reinventing the wheel more like it.

No way ! Having 5 people discussing, always the same ones (like in French politics) ... makes no sense and gives only the same talks and reactions, better give more people a power to choose. Even if they are less involved in the process of designing, they can appreciate the design work and choose what they like ! Always better to involve more players. Don´t you think a constitutional monarchy is better than a feodal one ?

The least you could have done is actually read through the old topic.. .then you would made some informed comments/criticism of the old system, instead of basically talking out of your ass. Always the same 5 people? Read the old topic please.
Here btw we had TWO people deciding on the new system, or the the stage race system at least, since that part is basically already implemented, you and Poke. That's OL constitutional monarchy? Great... You think you have a good idea, and start implementing it without a bothersome 3 months discussion before? Ok, I don't even have a problem with that, but then if you start claiming that this system is superior because more people are involved in the decision making than in the old one? How fucking stupid is that claim? The idea to implement something new, slightly different is good, what is bad is that you clearly completely ignored what happened before and are in best "feudal monarchy" style, not open for anything but praise. And 20 people voting better than 5 people voting and leso finally deciding? Depends on how informed the 20 people are really. I rather have an informed decision.. even if it's finally done by one guy, if it's an informed one.

We'll have 20 people voting.

Lie. We had more than 50 last year. I am sure we can get more with a better/stronger communication in news and chat races.

OL, OL, my dear OL.... I realize that since I called you a liar, and rightly so, you feel your usual childish need to retaliate, but try to make an effort and catch me at a lie next time.. This, my dear OL simply is not a lie, it's what we usually call a prediction. The prediction might turn out to be incorrect later on, but even that wouldn't make it a lie. Just a wrong prediction. Try to learn the difference between a "lie" and a "prediction"

We were thinking of giving a real balance in this off season calendar in order that even small teams not able to be competitive on all fields could be interested in it. Having way >50% of hilly races, why not ... but I think that finding a better balance might be a plus. As it's winter classic calendar, something fantasy, we do not need to copy the real classic season and also find a big part of hilly races.

Define real balance. Real balance=the balance you like? Sounds like it. Of course the thing should be balanced. Not only or mostly hilly, which it wasn't last year. Unlike what you claimed in this thread. And to help us understand the flat/light hilly category you have in your excel sheet (downloaded exactly 27 times so far, I'm sorry to say that 8 or 9 of those times it was me...., on the stupid smart phone it counted as 2 downloads and then couldn't even open it, so tried three times, so we're at 18 downloads, a few probably double ones too, so much for the big participation we can expect) could maybe tell us how many of last years classics would qualify in that category?

I do not think that the designer themselves are interested to see only their races in winter season.

Nice to see but has nothing to do with what I wrote. The word "only" has a meaning. Address the point next time.

Instead of closing the gates of the design in RSF, we want to open them, and would be happy to teach a bit to our new designers (hello rasta!).

In a way opening it, in a way though closing the gates. The guy who will get time in September, October, to design a bit.. oh, it's all closed, we already have filled out all spots for stage races. And IMO it's stage races that people like to create usually. But ok, since that one has already started too late.

Still here's the criticism for the fix stage race voting thing.

- Takes away calendar flexibility, add a stage race possible, but cutting one? Hard.
- Closes the drawing time very early... end of August.
- Overvoting, voting overdose. The risk is there.

To conclude, we have doubts about the one day races, as yes, we have some history. But doing the same every year, with some random changes that 97% of players see but do not realize how it happened and why ... mhh. Voting for them was proposition. Giving a real balance of race type all winter long was another one. To bring 2 news things for that new calendar proposal. We can of course use some/many of the old profiles and make them fit to that proposition. Or not. We can just do nothing, have the same lobby of few designers/players making and choosing everything how they think if it's the best, even if we were asking 10more people to vote, the results could be different.

Or we could have the OL-Poke democracy movement, 2 people deciding on how the winter calendar has to work in the name of democracy. Where 99,5% of people see some change but have no idea why....Or you could try to get of your high horse and tell us why your idea is oh so fucking great, and not why everything that was done before was just oh so fucking bad. The whole stick is especially frustrating since you obviously didn't even look at how it worked and what the result was (hilly, degree of hilly, but hilly... hihi)

Anyway, to be constructive... for one day races:

-Cat 3= vote? If a vote is needed, only between races that have been cat 2 at least before. A new race at cat 3 while old established races stay at cat 2? No good. We do the same with new real races, Canada started at cat 2... then 3, now I think reached cat 4. Old races of the same category are cat 5.
-cat 2=votes... is that vote only open for new races? How about cat 1 races raced last winter, that somebody liked, can they be nominated?
-No additional pavé fantasy classic. There are 2 pavé fantasy tours in the offseason. That really is enough. What we really need is simply 2 pavé races per month, every month. We'^ll have that for August, good job.
-Get new designers: Why not have 1 or 2 of the cat 2 races as only "new designer vote"? That would motivate new designers I think.

[Pokemon Club]

Well now people put their too long argues for my too little mind, what about Winter Classics ? Keep all like last year ? Voting only for cat 2 or the mosts recents races ? Create a vote to know for what we want voting ?

[lennylenny]

Well now people put their too long argues for my too little mind, what about Winter Classics ? Keep all like last year ? Voting only for cat 2 or the mosts recents races ? Create a vote to know for what we want voting ?

to decide if we make a vote, to know what we want voting, i think we need another voting

[Robyklebt]

What exactly is happening here now?