December Tour 2013, rules, discussions, criticisms!

[Radomiak]

Where do I vote? Or we skip voting and it will be just me who decide what we gonna play?

[lennylenny]

is it ok, if i create a poll?

[olmania]

Maybe now, leso could put it in the news, with a link to the presentation page, and a link to the vote page.

ps: I already see 4 votes for Venezuela, I would like to hear your arguments that make you vote for this tour ? (except that your team is a sprinter's teams, which is not an argument)

[Radomiak]

The voting should not be anonymous imo.

[Vea Olio]

my tour has only one vote...

[IDF]

ps: I already see 4 votes for Venezuela, I would like to hear your arguments that make you vote for this tour ? (except that your team is a sprinter's teams, which is not an argument)

Shit :/

No complicated stages , but with some " hard " final for sprinter teams.. Surely , some surprises during this tour and not hard climb stage ( the last ok , .. but the last stage so.. sprinters team will don't care.. )

[Pokemon Club]

ps: I already see 4 votes for Venezuela, I would like to hear your arguments that make you vote for this tour ? (except that your team is a sprinter's teams, which is not an argument)

Shit :/

No complicated stages , but with some " hard " final for sprinter teams.. Surely , some surprises during this tour and not hard climb stage ( the last ok , .. but the last stage so.. sprinters team will don't care.. )

Vote for Venezuela because X have a sprinterteam is as an argument as Y who vote for it because he have a Huber-leader.

[Rockstar Inc]

my 5 cents

GITA: well, maybe i'm too blind...but i don't find the stages in this "drawn races link"..but ok let's go...Anden #2 here we go...but without TT..pure, hard mountaintour...not the ideal dec-tour...don't get me wrong, i think the mountainstages are ok, almost tend to say nice...but too "hard" for a dec-tour imo

SLT: a good mixture, some chances for every rider-type...sprints possible, but some fight is neccesary- i like the tt, but with the restday as next stage it looses some impact..especially when the next stage is a flat one

New Zealand: not so bad, but in my opinion some mountainprizes too much ..only 12 km tt...means the tour will go to a "pure" mountainrider...especially with the tt being also bumpy

Drakensberg: froome-dawg would kiss you for this tour in the beginning i thought: hmm, maybe too many tt-km..but with the hard stages it's ok i guess...gc-teams need strong teams, cause sprinters will probably skip your tour

Philippines: finally a tt which isn't the day before the restday...gc guys with reg have some advantage the next day...good - i like those two "short" mountainstages...could mean some action..other then in some "reallife GTs" - open end at some stages between flatsprinters and this hilly guys(HS or KS, maybe puncheurs) also good

Tour de Germany: well, imo way too many sprinters..ok, i didn't saw the exact heights at the end of stage 2 and 4..long tt and the mountainstages seem to be not soo hard...classic-tt-guys...maybe even a 60 mountain, 90 TT guy? and...too much money to get on the road

Winter Tour: also a good allround tour...some chances for different riders..only classic guys seem to be a bit cut...balance between mountains and tt-kms looks ok...

Australia: well, some really short stages...not my taste, but it's no crime...the mountains seem to be ok...but i dislike the vuelta-style _________/

Nicaragua: pure mountainrider will win it easily...gc fight not soo open imo...stages, hmm only 2 sprintstages...maybe a bit too less...stage 10 looks nice, a good ol' rollercoaster

Venezuela: what lacks in 2 other tours, is here too much sprintstages...tt could be bit longer, cause of the really steep mountainfinish @stage 13

Sulawesi: long ttt before some mountainstages...here we go...good balance between mountain-km and tt-km, sprinters lack a bit of stages...especially this 260 km stage...could be cruical for them...profile not that hard...but loooong and looking to the next stages, not sure if they want to invest soo much energy...


yes i know, some cents sound similar...cause some tours are just similar..not sure which one i'll choose...i can discard fourtours for me at the moment which i won't vote for: Tour de Germany, Nicaragua, New Zealand, GITA...but just my personal taste

1) thx all for your tours and the paricipation
2) less SI and mountainprizes make tours better imo
3) ________________________/ = bääääh, especially with more then one of them
4) TT before the restday...makes reg almost irrelevant

[NoPikouze]

After overlooking the tours quickly my vote will go to nicaragua (hansa !!!)
-Only 1 stage clearly for a mountain rider, all the others are for classics or 80-70... Cool!
-Only 1 short timetrial, good !
-Apparently 3 easy sprintstages and 1 with a 5 near the end? Others too hard. Good balance imo!
A lot of diferent "classic" stages. A hard mountain + flattish downhill. Easy climb. One sieb with a few kms to go. Nice stuff!

I think Rockstar didn't look it closely enough in his analyses. And neither did other people since it has almost no votes yet. COME ON NICARAGUA !!

[Hansa]

i got some praise from nopik, wow But if Nopik is right with his analysis it exactly was what i want stages for everyone and an totally unclear tourwinner

[sylvainmeteo]

Yep, Nicaragua is a really nice tour, a bit like mine (few TT, the stages are well balanced, but maybe a bit more sprint stages in my New Zealand tour ^^)

[NoPikouze]

i got some praise from nopik, wow But if Nopik is right with his analysis it exactly was what i want stages for everyone and an totally unclear tourwinner

Yeah me praising you is quite a big effort, actually!
But I dont say that the stages are for "everyone", might be there is one strong guy (classic or 80 70) who takes a lot of them !! And gc, I dont really care, could be a huber or a classic with some TT and luck, i guess. The perpetual quest for "open" is a bit overrated. But I simply prefer "classic" stages over uphill arrivals + flat stages.

Vote Nicaragua! Not SM !

[olmania]

Suwalesi leading ....
Guys, did you just realised that 1st days are a bit in an Anden style with this 40kms TTT as an half stage and mountain stages then ?
In some tours, reg is not considered, in this one, it is all about reg ... sad

Venezuela behind ? Sprinter's tour with no suspense for 2 weeks ? Seriously ?

NZ tour 3rd ? Is that a joke ? How much did you get paid to vote for this ?


Yeah, I am a bit disappointed to see that the only 4 tours I consider interesting and reliable for December Tour are not even on the top3 of the votes for now ...

[luques]

Suwalesi leading ....
Guys, did you just realised that 1st days are a bit in an Anden style with this 40kms TTT as an half stage and mountain stages then ?
In some tours, reg is not considered, in this one, it is all about reg ... sad

You said exactly what was the aim, reg for me in a tour is important and i like it because it makes selection between bad managers and good managers, you do 1-2kms of tempo too much and you risk to pay it the day after.

I don't see as something sad putting reg has one of the primary skills.

For me a ITT or TTT is completely useless if after there is a flat stage or a rest day, for this i opted for TTT, Classic Stage and Mountain stage; it's just an idiocy for me putting after a flat or rest, because it also allows guys to put 100% all the time, i prefer see managers thinking about managing energies of their riders.
So by my side, every time i will design a december tour you will see a ITT and after a difficult stage.

P.S. If people like it (and not only mine, also NZ and Venezuela) this means they find the route interesting or they think to enjoy playing it. Many of those who vote here play every day so they know what they are voting. Personally i don't like who tells "people how you can vote xxx or yyy, are idiot tours and bla bla bla", they have the right to play what they like and you/me (all designers) should try to give to the community good races and good tours instead of blaming for their taste. It's the designer that should make races that all people like... not people that should like everything a designer does... At least this is my idea of designing races

[olmania]

I understand you want to have reg as an important feature.
But in your tour, that's gonna be the only feature. After 4stages and a reg competition, the one with lots of reg and who sucked the most will have a big enough advantage !
Have your ever seen a TTT of 40kms as half stage ? Especially when the other half stage is not a 100kms flat one.
Have you ever ride a 4Okms TTT in RSF ? You remember how much energy it takes for riders to ride a TTT ?
It seems just crazy to my eyes ...
And it's not going to be so fun, cause if everybody is dead, then everybody is waiting, no one can try anything cause no energy, so everybody will wait the last kms the 2days after your TTT and the one with the most reg will take some min advantage there. I do not see fun, possible exciting situations or challenges there

[Pokemon Club]

Beh if they aren't considered like extreme tour...stop talking for nothing and just vote SLIT !

[Robyklebt]

Interesting that it was OL who mentioned that. Because the way I see it in that respect your 2 tours are very similar. Meaning, the 2 things I don't really like in both your tours are the same. But then OL of course thinks the problem is where it really isn't, after the TTT, while it's clearly (I'm right, for sure) before that.

TTT:
Here Luques is more obvious with it, but it's really the same problem I have with it.

Luques: 182 km half stage. Then 42 km TTT half stage. The effect on stage 1 on the reg is there, good reg counts, but what counts more is: TEMPO. So the real big effect will be: It favors parasitism. Now I think it's good we have parasites, because if there weren't any, the game wouldn't be have as interesting, it's the different way of riding that makes the game interesting. But here.. too much. Stage 1a will just become a parasiting festival. Stage favorites? Forget the GC or forget the stage. Solution: Send a guy to the escape. No puller. And at this point of the race most guys will want to keep their GC option, even if the likely GC placing in the end is between 5-10. You never know what you can do later. For the GC you'll need 5 guys in the TTT. So: Use MAXIMUM 4 guys here. Escape. The few guys who are here JUST for the stages: Send a guy into the escape. Unlikely you have any chance to get the group. So who stays back: Newcomers. Who pulls the group? Newcomers. IMO it would have been much better to have stage 1a as stage 1 then 1b as stage 2. The stage favorites still have a difficult job, because they still want as many guys as possible fit for the next day, which isn't always easy on a stage like that. Expect rain and 25-30 degrees, not that easy conditions for helpers. Riding for a possible stage win still demands a sacrifice, less fit guys for the next day, many managers wouldn't be ready to do that sacrifice even like this I think. But in the same day? Nobody in his right mind will. Hell, even if I had a team for Tasman and he was the best sprinter in the peloton with 65+ mountain, I still wouldn't ride a meter in the peloton. Ok, the last 2 km maybe. So... sprinters ride? Are they stupid? With a passive peloton to expect it's certainly a possibilty to get a sprint. But then too easy for the 70-70 sprinters... after the last sieb put in one each, a bit later another one, and keep the sprinters away. Plus.. teams with sprinters can have GC guys too. For me the most likely scenario in this stage is still: Almost every team sends one guy in front .Some newer guys 2. They pull the group. In the back some newer guys then chase, they are assaulted by 50% of the oldtimers who are in front, those that have the best riders in front and hope for a 25+ minute advantage at the end of the stage. So... a part from the lack of reality, which is there too of course (but ok, could live with that) it's really the result in RSF which I dread.
OL: With the TTT on the 6th day, the effect will be VERY similar. Never as extreme, but for 5 days. For 5 days the "tour favorites" will expected to ride, the stage favorites will be expected to ride. The closer it gets, the more everybody else will try to send a guy into the escape, trying to get a win, without puller of course, while a few "chosen ones" will "have to" ride. And the recovery sprint stage ahead of the TTT in a way is just an insult. It says: While sprinters really have nothing to gain in this tour, only 3 sprint stages, their real role here is: Control the stage before the TTT! But again, won't affect only that stage, but all 5 who come ahead. No attacks for guys who know what they are doing for guys with TT and lowish reg. As little riding in the peloton as possible, be sure not to go under reg.
REsult of both things very similar. Luques has one extreme day of this chaos/parasitism thing, OL has 5 who are less "critical" so adds up.

Second problem with both your tours for me: IMO in both at least 1 sprint stage is missing. Both have 3. And in addition for both the sprint stages start rather late. So not only no chance for green at the end, but also no real chance to ever wear it. Here OL is the more obvious one, with Luques there are still chances in other stages, with OL not.
OL: 3 sprint stages. 5,7 and 11. All very clear. Problem of course: With only 3 sprints, and one that risks being sacrificied to energy saving, since sprinter teams, or teams with sprinters might have GC interests too.... why show up. And even if, stage 7 with 4 max risks being too steep. Lots of classics will be here... And attack is not sure to be taken back. If there were more sprints, yes, then the sprinter teams are stronger, here... 3 possible stages, this one here at risk, the one before the TTT is kind of a GC suicide... sprint stars stay at home. At least in my team... what for? To be the minder of lazy GC teams on stage 5, to have super classics running away in the slight uphill at the end of stage 7? Which leaves stage 11 as a sure sprint stage? No thanks. Since the tour has only 12 stages, so could have one more... why not add a sprint stage somewhere? Ok ,too late now of course, but with one more sprint stage it would be 4, which is ok. Then the incentive to bring the sprinter is bigger. Probably more sprinters. Stage 5 less expensive. stage 7 bigger chances to get classic attacks back.
Luques: 3 pretty clear sprint stages, 5, 10 and 13. And IMO stage1+7 are possible too. But stage one... the GC thing. See above. Stage 7: Interesting fight possibly. But.. .just not many sprinters will show up. The danger btw aren't the hill sprinters, they are the guys most punished by the new sprint system, it's the classics. Here too, one more stage, or possible stage could have already changed the balance and made stage 7 more accessible. I personnally would love to try to go for a sprint on that one. Certainly hard, the hill is a bit long, the flat maybe just a bit short, but worth a try. But with only 3 sure stages? Not sure I'd bring the necessary guys to have a chance on this stage. Flat guys basically. I get one more chance, doesn't have to be a clear stage even, stage 1 would almost do it IF stage 1b was stage 2. Then it's 3 safe ones. 2 that you can try, might win, might lose.

On these 2 problems, IMO in the end I still prefer Sulawesi to Drakensberg. The 2 possible additional sprints do it for me. Even if stage 1a is just an absolute horror IMO.

On the rest then: Drakensberg basically evens it out. Sulawesi lacks a bit the "big time gap stage" (ok, nr 1a is there for that, but..). Often then on the big time gap stages the time gap then isn't all that big either, but is possible to try. While here.. none really. But ok, still ok. But in that respect like Drakensberg a bit better, it has a few big time gap opportunities. Of course with 2 TTs the decisive factor will still be the TT, that doesn't change, roughly the same in both, ok, but Drakensberg offers more possibilities for climbers/GC guys to try to gain time, or even just for stage hunting on those stages, you can try from more different points.

So if it was a vote just between those 2.... ape wouldn't know who to vote for. And actually both are still in the running for the vote in round 1. Just that the 2 problems, TTT related and too few sprints make the ape think. If one of those 2 tours didn't have those 2 problems, or only 1 of the 2 it very likely already would have my vote.

A comment on Luques comment:

It's the designer that should make races that all people like... not people that should like everything a designer does... At least this is my idea of designing races

But IMO that's not what's happening. The tours that get votes get them exactly because they are not that balanced. Meaning "liked by all". I suspect many sprinter team vote for Venezuela because it has 8 sprint stages as I see it. And almost nobody else gives it their vote. So I think in the case of Venezuela it's the extremes that get the votes.
Personally don't really like Venezuala all that much, just toooo many sprints, but would ride it if it gets voted in. More about Venezuela another time.

And since I started commenting tours now, I'll comment mine too, then I'm done with that. Others later probably:

Philippines: It does nothing wrong. IMO has no big negative. But, it does nothing really right either, it has no big positives. Pretty bland fair, just little negatives, little positives. For my standard I think I managed pretty good sprint stages, IMO one of my big problems in Dec tours. Most of the time I just design them too easy, too many guaranteed sprints. Here 3 guaranteed ones and 4 possible ones.. hope they are neither too easy not too difficult, so that it ends with 3-1, 2-2, 1-3 between sprinters and classics (the poor hill sprinters really most likely not a factor anymore)not 4-0 or 0-4. Ah, and stage 7 is good, pretty steep hills. But actually wanted 3 classic stages, ended up with 2... bah. Mountain stages blah, ok, not really good, not really bad, but too backloaded really. But still ok somehow. Rideable Tour, but nothing really exciting, the biggest mistake the lack of some more action in the first 6 days. ITT, mountain stage, classic stage would have been much better there. But the classic stage after the ITT is kind of ok too, so again, just little negative. For Hubers IMO not a negative, why not, plus most of the apes dec proposals have been pretty Huber friendly anyway, nothing new.

Can't really say if I would vote for it if it wasn't my own tour (because it is I won't vote for it anyway), but probably not. Rideable. Nothing more. And from the guy who designed the greatest dec tour ever, YEMEN, I expect more

[olmania]

Just a thing about sprints.
Why I decided to put so few sprint stages. Cause now with new system and the train you need, sprinters teams are not coming on tours when they don't have a lot to win.
Before for a 5days tour with 2 sprints, we had some sprinter teams with 1 or 2 classics so they could enjoy the other stages, still.
Now, almost never happens that they come.
Imo, 2 options, something like venezuela, lot's of sprints, they come.
If only 2, 3 or 5 sprints, they do not come, just chaos stages, parasite stages ... because they will prefer to all go on the short sprint tour given in // of December Tour !
I find it sad to have our december tour, historically made for GC winners with not few sprints (4-5 maybe) but enough to attract so teams with sprinters, when today it is not enough anymore ...

And I will tell more about my design to answer you, the ape, when votes will be over

[Robyklebt]

Don't think that's the case actually.
Sprinter teams aren't only the ones with the train. A sprinter team is less the riders it has, more how it rides. Look at Circle lately, only one sprinter, no train, but he always rides for his sprinter. And then hopes to get the right wheel and win like this. After working before. You don't need a train to win. You need the will to ride for your sprinter, and, you need decent collaborators. Meaning teams with trains that then when you're in their wheel, won't say, "fuck him, he's not winning from my wheel, from my wheel it's 60-40 for him, I'll throw away my 40, so that he doesn't keep his 60", but that are able to see the difference between the 95 who didn't ride at all because "he has no chance, no train" and the 95 who did ride, who collaborated. Offer the sprinters their opportunity and they'll show up. The chaos you're talking about actually hasn't increased at all, that's just in your mind!

[Hunsrueck]

Just a thing about sprints.
Why I decided to put so few sprint stages. Cause now with new system and the train you need, sprinters teams are not coming on tours when they don't have a lot to win.
Before for a 5days tour with 2 sprints, we had some sprinter teams with 1 or 2 classics so they could enjoy the other stages, still.
Now, almost never happens that they come.
Imo, 2 options, something like venezuela, lot's of sprints, they come.
If only 2, 3 or 5 sprints, they do not come, just chaos stages, parasite stages ... because they will prefer to all go on the short sprint tour given in // of December Tour !
I find it sad to have our december tour, historically made for GC winners with not few sprints (4-5 maybe) but enough to attract so teams with sprinters, when today it is not enough anymore ...

those were my thoughts

[luques]

A comment on Luques comment:

It's the designer that should make races that all people like... not people that should like everything a designer does... At least this is my idea of designing races

But IMO that's not what's happening. The tours that get votes get them exactly because they are not that balanced. Meaning "liked by all". I suspect many sprinter team vote for Venezuela because it has 8 sprint stages as I see it. And almost nobody else gives it their vote. So I think in the case of Venezuela it's the extremes that get the votes.

This is what the majority of people like! It's clear that you can't satisfy everybody or to say it better, probably you can, but this year it's not the case (and this is for me the reason why no tour is getting more than 10 votes!). So you have to adjust to what the majority wants and likes, there is an increasing number of sprinter teams this means (god forgive me) that people like the sprint, people like sprint races so sprint races is what they will vote.

It's the old conversation about "what shit programs there are in prime time, all reality" that is what the majority wants and so they give us!
I repeat, sprinter teams are costantly raising in numbers (much more than climber teams), so they will ask and have always more races and events (and this is the reason why there is a shitty bolivian tour running in parallel with Andes )

On the stage, i programmed it by thinking that team are specialized. What i mean? Sprinters Team will care about sprint, Classic teams will care about tactics and so on; so the TTT penalizes much who worked on first stage (sprinters mainly) that in any case have 0 chances to win this tour so don't care at all to take 20 or 30minutes on stage 3 and 4, they will just stay in the back protecting their sprinters.

P.S. Originally it was 1a 1b, then moved to 1-2 as it seemed too hard, then returned to 1a-1b cause of rules

[olmania]

Technical question, if winner is in Dec and runner-up in January, do we have a 2nd round of votes ?
If yes, how many tours in this 2nd round ?

[Hansa]

last year the 2 best tours out of the 1st selection was voteable for 2nd vote there the winner was december tour and the loose january

[olmania]

last year the 2 best tours out of the 1st selection was voteable for 2nd vote there the winner was december tour and the loose january

According to the current situation, It's gonna be like having to choose to be tortured 1st and then killed by lethal injection or electrocution, we'll just have to vote for the order of it in this second round

[luques]

last year the 2 best tours out of the 1st selection was voteable for 2nd vote there the winner was december tour and the loose january

According to the current situation, It's gonna be like having to choose to be tortured 1st and then killed by lethal injection or electrocution, we'll just have to vote for the order of it in this second round

And from an insane mind as mine what do you expect?