December Tour 12 competition talk and rules thread

[sylvainmeteo]

I'd be more for more local weather. That leso doesn't take it from the capital anymore, but from the closest weather station. I guess (haven't checked) that would make a large part of your tour with ok weather. Of course the mountain stage would still be at 0 degree... .but ok, so let's ride a few stages in the cold. Just the whole tour in stupid cold weather... no thanks.... Lobby leso for local weather!

I'm also for Local Weather, it's idiotic to take Washington's weather for a race in Los Angeles or San Francisco for instance...

[lesossies]

I'd be more for more local weather. That leso doesn't take it from the capital anymore, but from the closest weather station. I guess (haven't checked) that would make a large part of your tour with ok weather. Of course the mountain stage would still be at 0 degree... .but ok, so let's ride a few stages in the cold. Just the whole tour in stupid cold weather... no thanks.... Lobby leso for local weather!

I'm also for Local Weather, it's idiotic to take Washington's weather for a race in Los Angeles or San Francisco for instance...

No Problem.
I did it most of the time for the GTs and the big Classics.

[Vea Olio]

I know that i go often offroads, but for create any good race you can do it. I think that all the course creators can do it because the poorest countries have few roads

[team fl]

EAT 2012 has joined the competition! Everybody else feel free just to give up now...

[NoPikouze]

I guess you meant "Everybody feel free to throw up" !

3 timetrials

Also really much of flattish stages, and/or stages for classicsprints... I'd prefer stages for climbers or for real classics ?
I think this competition was about "no extreme tour"... and this tour is extremely uninteresting imho!

Nevertheless it's great to have a nice presentation and good graphics for once.

[team fl]

Hihi, gute Besserung then. Well, I don't like Tours that are mostly for climbers and what you call "real classics". I like tours that have something for everybody. And EAT 2012 is such a tour.

[Robyklebt]

So, which one is the stage for Touré?

[team fl]

The rest day. I am sure, Touré will excel at the spice tour on Zanzibar.

[Robyklebt]

Grr!

[team fl]

5 tours have been presented so far. Here a little summary:

- GIOI by Vea Olio: not finished yet. So far 9 stages have been presented.

1 flat stage, 3 middle mountain stages,
3 mountain stages and
2 ITTs (3km, 16km).
Rest day after stage 5 (two consecutive mountain finishes incl. stage 4)

- Arizona by SM: 12 stages

6 (!) flat stages,
2 middle mountain stages,
4 mountain stages.
Rest day is not clear yet.

- Japan by PKMN: 13 stages

4 flat stages
3 middle mountain stages
4 mountain stages (all with a mountain finish
1 ITT (38km, half dowhill, half uphill)
1 TTT (24km)
Rest day after stage 7 (after two consecutive flat stages...)

- Tour Algerien by cataracs: 11 stages

4 flat stages
3 middle mountain stages
2 mountain stages
1 ITT (48 km, stage 1)
Rest day after stage 7 (hardest stage)

- EAT 2012 by Team FL: 14 stages (2 half stages)

4 flat stages
4 middle mountain stages
3 mountain stages
2 ITTs (5km, 21km)
1 TTT (21km)
Rest day after the 7th stage

[team fl]

According to the newest news, EAT 2012 will be sponsored by the UN World Food Program!

[Radunion]

I have entered the East Mediterranean Tour. I am especially interested about your thought about offering lots of time bonifications on the last stage.

[Rockstar Inc]

for now the FL tour is my favorite...SM's tour i also like...but there is the problem with the weather...

@radunion: correct me if i'm wrong...but there are only 2, maybe 3 sprintstages at your tour? one single 6 in the last ten km is deadly for a sprint, if there are two km with 6 or more in the last 18-20 it's also dead, especially with all this downhill-km to the finish...if your HS would be still in your team, i'd say it's tailormade for him...

[sylvainmeteo]

FL Tour : very very nice, I like it a lot!
Radunion Tour : too much hilly stages, sprinters won't vote for your tour probably, and stages are very very (too) long, especially the 1st week...
But your bonification idea are really not bad

Mountainous tour is Andes, and a 'flatter' tour like mine or FL is good for sprinter teams because Andes aren't flat enough, and sprinterteams want their tour for them also like Andes for Climbers

[Radunion]

my tour and sprinters ...
stage 1: TT - no chance
stage 2: nearly impossible
stage 3: sprint possible, the sprinter teams might need classics riders in their team for the + 3 to + 5
stage 4: no sprint
stage 5: clear sprint
stage 6: no sprint
stage 7: no sprint
stage 8: should be a sprint
stage 9: sprint possible, depends on the field
stage 10: no sprint
stage 11: sprint
stage 12: last km too steep for sprinters

summery: 3 sprint stage + 2 stages with a possible sprint

Please consider that this is a tour and not one day races. In one day races somebody would destroy his team to prevent a sprint, in a tour sprints are much more likely. Of course, if most sprinter teams are afraid of the profiles, there will be no sprint finishes. Honestly, mountain riders would have more reasons to complain, but they have their tour in November.

[Rockstar Inc]

my tour and sprinters ...
stage 3: sprint possible, the sprinter teams might need classics riders in their team for the + 3 to + 5
km 175: 5 km, 3.4 %, max 6 % (cat 3)
km 184: 4 km, 5.0 %, max 6 % (cat 3)
30km sounds good...but are there some sieb-km in a row?...depends on the gap...in the downhill part ONE single rider with high downhillskill is enough to keep a gap steady and let it decrease only slowly

stage 5: clear sprint
km 49: 11 km, 4.7 %, max 7 % (cat 2)
km 126: 12 km, 4.6 %, max 7 % (cat 2)
depends on how steep both of the hills really are...i mean, how many steep km in a row...but usually it should work out

stage 8: should be a sprint
depends on the steepness..km 120: 14 km, 5.5 %, max 8 % (cat 1) how many sieb-km in a row...but could work out

stage 9: sprint possible, depends on the field
don't think so...i guess you have to decide which stage you ride for a sprint...8 or 9...with 70,80 km chase at the stage 8 you got 0% chance today

stage 11: sprint
agree

and towards your idea with the big number of SI at the last stage...MY opinion: Bullshit and needless...but others may see it otherwise...

[cataracs]

Algerian tour posted !!
the worst presentation ever !! the first time i use c4f editor and had a lot of prblems in the begening should be ok now , wanted a tour for climbers Vs hubers with flatstages to attract sprint teams .
itt : 1
ttt : 0
flat stages for sprinters if they want so : 5
middle mountain for classics : 1 + stage8 if there is a classic monster
for hillsprinter or ksp : 1
finish for climbers : 4 + stage 8 if it's not for a strong classic
rest day : 1

will be 7 races , a rest day , than 6 races .

[Robyklebt]

Taka, Taka... already told you in the chat, but...
15 days is not 10-14 days! leso's rules.

Simple rules:

Tour limits:
10-14 days with max. 1 rest day and max. 1 day with 2 half-stages.

No extrem tour:
No extrem mountainous tour like Anden or an extrem cobbles-tour like sachsen nor en extrem flat one)

Design Time :
until 31.October.

And btw, stage 4-7 seem not to exist on the server or the wrong link, clicking on the link we get filier non trouvé!

[cataracs]

But now , evrything seems corrected .

[Robyklebt]

Last day! Design, design!

Vea Olio too, 9 stages there, a few misisng. Go go go!

[lesossies]

Because of the long WE 01.11 - 04.11, I will first start the next step next monday.
So you get this prolongation to finish your work and your presentation, or to make a new tour proposition
good working !

[Vea Olio]

Now I want to talk of December Tours:
Arizona Tour: I think the most challenging climbs put alone, such as Mont Ventoux, is rather pointless. You know that so you are likely to decide the Tour by the time trial, right? A self-respecting Tour must have a balance between tough mountain stages and time trial. If the red stages have only a hard climb at the end, you are likely to make few detachments, in part because the gradients are not type Monte Zoncolan, capable of making ruthless selection anyway. For the rest, the other stages are very uncertain, and I like that a lot. But the Tour generally is OK.
Vote: 7

Japan Tour: you did a great Tour, Pokemon Club. Maybe you could make flat time trial but is really excellent. The mountain stages are really hard, and uphill finish dry you made has very high gradients, good thing. This is a Tour for climbers, perhaps the only because even my hard stage are not terrible. But what counts here are the gradients, and your Tour right gradients at all stages to give a pretty sight. Really well!
Vote: 8,5

Tour Algerien: not bad, really. The location is excellent, but maybe mountain stages you could use help with Climbbybike, there are some excellent Algerian climbs there. Very good the third stage, could give a jolt to the ranking. Splendid is the fifth stage, in my opinion the coolest ever on the Tour. The time trial balance well the climbs, so it's a great Tour. Well to you.
Vote: 8++

East African Tour: Uhm, I think once you have chosen a location so beautiful you could do best stages, but all in all, the Tour is beautiful. Perhaps a classic win, especially since it is so far the time trial. Though technically you could do more. I know that Africa has few roads, but to trace the stages offroads could be a solution. But the vote is good.
Vote: 7+

[Robyklebt]

I talk too:

GIOI: Uff, finished, was a bit scared he wouldn't. Good presentation in general. Maybe good too add the link Poke and Taka have, as would be nice for the others too,so that we can see all the percentages?

Then: Under stage one you write:

I did an error: I've ranked this stage as a flat stage. Could you correct please??

Easy to correct yourself. Load the stage, change flat to ITT, then click "overwrite" (on the left of end/save) and save again.
Stage 2: 3 times -1? It looks like you start at 0 already, finish at -30 meters? Use "recalculate elevation" and look that it more or less fits during the whole stage. The automatic thing can make big differences, start at 500 for example, finish reality at 500, but RSF can be 300 or 700 (fairly extreme example) with the automatic thing without checking the altitude
Otherwise, 4 sprints, ok, I personally don't like to finish with 2 sprints, would have been nice to have some of them first, but with 4 there is ok. Having 14 stages probably one more good too, too get more votes from sprinters.. Then the finish, it looks a bit like the GC will be decided after stage 9. The last 5 stages very very likely there won't be any suspence left anymore, a bit much for my taste.
Good tour, like the idea, not so much the off road things but can imagine riding it

Arizona: Good for sprinters, not very hard overall. 36 km TT, some hard naked mountains.. .but really difficult to see where bigger differences could be made otherwise. Seems all pretty simple, hard mountains finishes, time gains, otherwise it's sprints or or still bigger groups I fear. And as I said, I just can't see any opportunity to do more than just skills riding, here this guy loses that much because he has 2 mountain less, here he wins this much because he has 5 TT more. But would ride that too. The weather, ok ok, would probably survive a few days in the snow, not fanatical about it, but..

Japan: Won't ride that in the cold, not going to Hokkaido. IN WINTER with "real weather". And even localized won't help of course. The tour itself looks good. Although some stuff is.. blah... stage 7 for example is clearly a tunnel IMO 4/2/4/5/4/18? Then -14.. tunnel check? Flat stages there, good middle mountain stages there, good mountain stages there. Wrong country AND wrong place in the country. Otherwise might vote for it. Some stages look very exciting.

Algerie: Presentation the biggest minus here, not even the townnames in the profiles? Stages.. it suffers a bit from the same problem I have with Gioi: End is very easy, the GC normally should be decided early. Long ITT to start, then the climbers chase. cool. But somehow after stage 9 the chase seems over. Plus 8+9 seem to be the same stage too, grr, and not stages where you can make big gains either. Coolest stage nr 3, with Japan 12 the coolest mountain stage of all candidates. nr 7, don't know, but the saws after 145 somehow look suspicious.. .could be like that, don't know, but... But would ride that too.

EAT: Clearly the attempt to have a TT winner, but not automatically a 70 guy with 80 TT, chances for 65 and more TT as well. While Arizona is more Huber vs Leupold, this one could be more Leupold vs 65 mountain with good TTT team. IMO it fails a bit in the mountains, there really almost no reason to bring a climber. They can and likely win stage 2 and 6, but otherwise their just their to sieb, as pullers etc. Plus 2+6 really are fairly simple things... mountain with flat and sprint nr 2, high mountain with flat, or mountain with flat and sprint again...The GC stages though will likely be the TTT, very important, and stage 3, and stage 9+10 too. Leupolds vs less mountain guys. Good stages that can bring differences, the "climbers" stages will have minimal differences after all. But maybe would have been better to have one more stage for climbers... and increase the lenght of the ITT a bit? Still keep it as open as possible between the different TT guys, but give the climbers their day. But ok, that's a difficult challenge anyway. Can imagine riding it too though

East Med... mmh, the name, after EAT, MEAT would have been nice, Mediterranean (East) Athletic Tour or so.. hehe. The sprints. Radunion is right, in stage races it works differently than in one day races. But it goes both ways. What is a middle mountain stage in a one day race can be a sprint in a tour, but what can be a sprint in a one day race is a classic stage in a tour. And IMO he is going in this direction here. Stages that on paper and in one day races could be sprints, will not be. Ok, maybe I shouldn't talk about sprint stages, never get it right myself, but IMO Radunion didn't either. The sprinters need to show up and fight? Very likely fighting won't help. Since in general the tour is very good for classics. so guess who'll show up in force? 1 Classic teams 2. Classic Teams with hill sprinters. 3. Classic teams with classic sprinters. Even if BSE, Rockstars, Brio and 2 clear sprinter teams show up... the opposition will be that strong that of the 5 claimed sprints.... 1? 2? ends in a sprint? We really would need the exact profiles and percentages for that. It's so inviting for guys with mountain, that they will show up. The sprints: 3: No chance for sprinters. Too many classic guys there. IF anything a hill sprinter sprint, limit limit a very strong team like Cordero had could do it. Flat sprinters? No, all the fighting won't help. 5: Possible. In most stage races and in one day races I would think, go for a sprint. Here? Due to the general design of the tour, what normally looks like a fairly sure sprint, looks like it could turn out to be very hard. 8: Unlikely, harder than 5, but only what looks like 30 real flattish km at the end, with all the mountains skills that are almost guaranteed to be at the start.... IMO will turn out to be too hard. 9: No chance IMO. You can't expect all the classics to just do nothing and have fighting sprinters survive that. Not in this tour. In a sprint friendly one? ok. Then 11 If after the last KOM there are no more 6 looks like a pretty interesting sprint stage, that very likely ends in a sprint. But not here. There is 2 chances before, according to me, for flat sprinter. Lets say guys under 55... Chances, not more. So... does showing up make sense? No. I'd bring GAo, yeah, without much hope for anything, except hoping for this stage here and do it alone.. IMO right thinking, wrong direction. The "sprint stages" would be interesting but with no incentive for the sprinters to show up, they will just be hill sprinters vs classics most likely. Still nice, but not sprint. That said, could imagine riding this too. Even if the last stage somehow doesn't convince me at all. Interesting parcours before, open for attacks too, a bit too sprint friendly for hill and classic, which could block it too though, then at the end it could all come down to the intermediate festival?

Last: Bolivia, not finished, not posted here, but actually looks really nice, would have had good chances to get my vote. Stage 2 looks really nice, stage 7 too. Maybe a few too easy sprints around (like in my proposals usually too) would really have depended on how it ends, TT, more mountains etc. But the beginning looked very good somehow.

[Robyklebt]

Voted, but since it can be changed I might.

So: question for the designers! What are your mintacts? Why not add that to the presentations? Except for EAT none seems to have that in it's presentation, but could make a decision easier, maybe not only for me!

[Pokemon Club]

So: question for the designers! What are your mintacts? Why not add that to the presentations? Except for EAT none seems to have that in it's presentation, but could make a decision easier, maybe not only for me!

I put it on the presentation