December Tour 2019: Rules, discussions criticism.

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Robyklebt
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December Tour 2019: Rules, discussions criticism.

Post by Robyklebt » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:13 pm

As every year since 2007 we'll have a december tour decided by voting by our esteemed and hated users.

AS the self appointed absolute dictator of the december tour, here are the rules:

-10-14 days: Maximum 13 days riding. (That means you can do a 13 day tour without rest day or a 14 day tour with 1 rest day)
-Maximum 1 day with half stages.
-No extreme tour, flat, pavé, mountains TT etc.
-1 tour per designer
-Number of riders 6-9

On October 1 I will open a thread to post your tours. Post them there, not here. Posting in October, 1st to 31st. No discussions in the other thread, but in this thread here, comments, praise, criticisms about all tours of course are more than welcome.

Voting procedure:
First round voting will start in early November. Nov 1st ideally, but if the dictator forgets it the second or so works too. Vote open 2 weeks.
First round: Votes per person depending on tours submitted.. Number of submissions/2, then rounded down. That means:
3 tours=1 vote
5 tours=2 votes
7 tours=3 votes
9 tours=4 votes.
But we'll cap the number of votes at 4, so even if we have 97 submission, it will stay 4 votes per person. Unchangeable votes. 2 weeks time for voting.
Second round: Normally the first 2 teams will advance to the second round. If it's very close more might be in, decision would be made by a committee of 3 composed of people with no submission, appointed by the dictator. 1 week vote.


January tour will be the second placed tour. Length, max 11 days, so at least 2 days will have to be cut, by the designer. (I guess he can cut more if he feels it's needed to keep the spirit of his tour...)
Kraftsystemrevision! Include the distance!
Basics reform: Give blue a chance!
Don't punish bugusers. We all have to use bugs, since most of them are declared as "features"!

chartreusecycle
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Re: December Tour 2019: presentation

Post by chartreusecycle » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:48 am

Quite a nice innovative design, with an entertaining story !
Gand - Wevelgem 2018
3x French Champion 2017, 2018
Paris - Roubaix 2016
Milan - San Remo 2015
Amstel 2015
Fleche Wallonne 2015
Tour de France 2013
2x Paris - Tours 2013, 2019

Robyklebt
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Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:50 pm
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Re: December Tour 2019: Rules, discussions criticism.

Post by Robyklebt » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:26 pm

Grrrr, already had to move one post, comments HERE, not in the presentation topic!!!!
Kraftsystemrevision! Include the distance!
Basics reform: Give blue a chance!
Don't punish bugusers. We all have to use bugs, since most of them are declared as "features"!

Gipfelstuermer
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Re: December Tour 2019: Rules, discussions criticism.

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:10 pm

Mh, should I critize Roby for a December Tour presentation, which is supposed to play in the Andes, as I am the Campeonato 2019 designer?... Could backfire on me...

Anyway, I like to do the criticism... So, this 4 ciudades tour...

Pros:
- Brave design for the start: Haven't seen 3 Time Trials in a row, so new things are always interesting for a competition!
- Interesting concept: 4 cities as the major hubs for the stages is rather new as well. Good innovation.
- Order of the stages: I envy to have TT's first, flat/medium stages following and HC mountain stages at the end. Why? Would simply prefer a decision in the mountains as compared to a decision in the TT,because TT is a bit boring in RSF, unfortunately. So yes, good order of stages with the final climb on the last stage.

Cons:
- No extreme tour? 103km TT in a 12-day tour is not extreme? Well, not sure if Roby's tour passes the Roby criteria for December Tour.
- Continent/Area of the race: Why design a race in Andes? Not really sure... Maybe you knew, I would not do Colombia, but my riders would prefer not to have two weeks Andes in November and then two weeks Andes in December...
- 3 TT, 3 Hilly, 3 Flat, 3HC: Somehow interesting, but doesn't seem very balanced to me. Well, does a December Tour need to be balanced? Maybe not... Might be interesting because it is difficult to control the race...

Ok, so if it was only the difficult to control December Tour, might even be in favor of this tour and would like to ride it. But with the extreme amount of 103km Time Trial... Not so sure... Might be fun if a strong TT-Leader doesn't have the team to control afterwards... But generally the tour seems too extreme to me for a December tour. For instance, there's really only one stage for a pure sprint team in my point of view.

So, looking forward to see the other December Tours! Good chance that I vote for a different one.

Gipfelstuermer
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Re: December Tour 2019: Rules, discussions criticism.

Post by Gipfelstuermer » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:40 pm

OK, new contender online. Tukh with his Philippines.

Pros:
- Muuuch more balanced than the 4 ciudades! 4 Flat, 5 Middle, 3 HC, 1 ITT... Nicely balanced for a December Tour!
- Flat Stages are not too boring. Always with small hills somewhere. I love the finish of stage 2. Will need a strong sprint team there.
- Middle Stages offer a lot of variety too. Some with a longer flat part at the end, others could even classify as HC due to their mountain finish.
- Most of the HC Stages nicely placed at the end of the tour. Should make GC fight interesting
- Hilly ITT in the middle of the tour looks also fine, at least not completely boring as some other ITT's.

Cons:
- Arbitrary classifications of climbs and stages. Don't like that arbitrary style, but seems Tukh's intuition is very good. No major mistakes.
- Philippines: The whole island of Mindanao lives under the laws of war. Germany has issued a travel warning. Sounds dangerous.

Hard to find other cons. I like the tour a lot because it is well balanced and has some stages which look like a lot of fun and seem unpredictable. Stage 2, 6 and 9 look exciting.

Robyklebt
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Re: December Tour 2019: Rules, discussions criticism.

Post by Robyklebt » Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:53 pm

I join Gipfel in criticism!

4 Ciudades de Colombia

Brilliant concept! Well, in many things I actually agree with Gipfel...

Not the location though, that is perfect. THE cycling country in South America, Spend the Andes in the Andes and then the December tour too? Pff, that ignores a lot of things, first that not all teams will go to the Campeonato, it's a stage race for specialists, climbers, the December tour not. And then of course Chile and Argentina, same language as Colombia, same mountain range, but ignores the cultural differences between Chile, Argentina and Colombia. That's like saying that after the Giro riders don't want to ride the TdS or Dauphiné and then the Tour de France, since they all pass through the Alps. Pff. And the spectators, after Argentina and Chile were you can expect 7 spectators per stage on average, 2 of them only because they have to wait before they can cross the street, in Colombia you will have 7 per square meter! Cycling crazy country, it's high time they finally get a December Tour!

The concept, I haven't been so excited about a RKL tour since last year :!: :!: :!: :!: Ok, no, longer actually. But it's mostly because of the concept and more specifically the TTs. But for the plan to work there, of course the TTs have to be rather long. With 20/20/20 it would just be 3 times the strongest on paper. Like this... in a perfect dreamworld it will be interesting. Long TTT, for stage, go with 5? 6? all 9? But lose more energy and possibly the chance for an individual stage win the next day? The same on the first ITT, 35km, if you don't have the reg (of the 16 TT guys with 80+ TT with at least one current point, 6 have 40 or less reg, 8 41-50 and just 2 over 50 (58+59)) I think you have to make a choice between the 2 stages, which one. And depending on the leader's jersey situation the same, if after the TTT you're in the fight for it, how do you try to get it? In reg for the first one? Or below reg, but not too much? Same for the GC win. Right now there are 40 riders with 70+ mountain and 60+ TT with at least 1 point. 15 with 40 or less reg, 11 with 51+ reg. How do you handle that, how do you minimize/maximize the time loss/gain? Could be interesting. And as well what team do you bring, mountain team to defend later, TT team to get an early advantage? Very interesting. In theory. In practice it could end up not playing out like that at all of course and you get 3 easily predictable stage wins and a clear GC favorite that is clear from day 1.

Then the middle mountain stages (here too agree with Gipfel, the order is right).... as those who have read the presentation might have noticed, the designer himself is not too happy with them. First one ok, rather hard, change of leaders jersey likely. But then... second one bah, classic group, here a flatter finish better, to give the sprinters a chance to maybe come back, or at least the hill sprinters. Third one, bah again, another classic group, hard start, then easy, A harder end better, but not hard enough to make it for climbers.

Sprint, there's 2 clear sprint stages here actually, the first one long, but if sprinter teams don't manage to make that a sprint, they are not sprinter teams. Second one as a one day race is a sprint too, in a more sprinter friendly stage race too, here since we can't expect many sprinters.. .critical. Was thinking about redrawing it and finding a easier hill for the middle, but wasn't sure I'd find the finish again, with the +5 that I like in there, so let it be. Of course with few sprinters to be expected all 3 might end up as escape things... but still 2 of them have to be regarded as clear sprint stages, with a few sprinter teams some help, active or passive (by staying in the peloton) by GC teams... sprint.

Mountain, they are tough, but of course having them grouped together sort of castrates them too, the first one GC moves are mostly possible with lots of energy investements, who wants to do that with the second one that has lots of altitude meters waiting? And the third one, with the only "real" mountaintop finish, waiting for the end not unlikely too.

So... I like the TT thing, for the rest don't really think all that much of it either. Clearly not enough sprint, thought about making one day with 2 half stages, but that would have sort of destroyed the concept, and RKL isn't known for his mental flexibility. Maybe some day somebody makes a similar start, but a more flexible rest of the tour? I think it would be interesting to see how that TT festival plays out.

Ah, the extreme tour thing? Of course it passes the Robyklebt criteria for the December tour. No extreme tour doesn't mean that one speciality can't be decisive... .plus here it's not as simple as TT is decisive, even with a 80mountain 70 TT guy with a strong TT team, he will need the mountain helpers to win. And reg, reg here in a way is as decisive as TT, this 103 km TT are in 3 stages, each followed by one where you preferably start fit. Pokemon's just posted 60 km ITT before a rest day IMO actually is more pro individual TT skill than the 3 TTs here, half is team-dependent, the other half reg dependent.

Generally I would say 4 ciudades the Colombia is an interesting experiment, but IMO not sprint friendly enough for a December tour. Failure in middle mountain stages too, that IMO can be overlooked, after all it's the same almost every year with RKL stage races, the middle mountain stages sort of suck. The few sprints not, 2 sure, 1 possible is not enough.
And the big risk of the unfortunately spreading "buy the stage race with a 600k+ team", since that's what seems to be needed to start as the big favorite. In that sense it is indeed an extreme tour, since the stages in 2 specialities are rather extreme. (But the no extreme tour in the rules wasn't meant in that way) On the other hand it allows for non GC teams that are cheaper and competitive on a number of stages, sprint+TT guy, sprint + classic guy with some sprint, or all 3.

Philippines Tour

Nicer presentation. The text below the profile is much better than above it, will try to remember it for next year. Bolding the stage title too. And providing the % of the important km very nice too. Just the link like RKL... bah. Best would be both actually.

Sprint, 4, IMO 5 would be better, or at least a 5th one with chances, don't think that's there. But stage 2 is very nice with the slight uphill finish, including the sprint. Another problem I have with the sprint though, first 4 stages 3 sprints, then only 1 more, would have been nice to spread them a bit more. 1+2, then not 4 but 5 or 6... and ideally the last stage would have been a sprint too.

Middle mountain: Ha, RKL will be happy. I just realized Tukh has a similar problem to me, the 4 stages for classics are somehow all very similar, like in RKL's case!
Stage 3 nice, longish final climb, 29 km from the end, downhill, flat. Good.
Stage 6, which I like a lot, short climb, downhill/flattish, 2 km flat.
Stage 8, harder prelude to the final, but will come down to the final, which is the same type as stage 6
Stage 13 Short steep climb with a break, 22km to the goal, downhill, flat. This seems somewhere between stages 3 and 6/8.

Somehow all similar too, maybe that's what middle mountain stages are after all :lol:

TT. 30 km, looking at the mountains seems a good distance. Not too short, followed by a hilly stage which is good, so reg will at least play some role.

Mountain: 4 basically, even if only 3 are classified as such.
Stage 5: a) very small differences between the favorites in that final climb. Which is ok for a first mountain stage. b) theoretically offers the chance for a long range attack, which is nice too. But since most GC teams should be fit at that point, normally it won't happen.
Stage 9: Looks great. Like it could permit even a long range attack. Here the link to the profile thingy would help. Because maybe the flat part between Antipolo and Silangan is too long? But can't really say... Visually a great stage. Except... later. What's good too is that it's followed by a flat stage, so allows to invest energy, without the big risk of paying the next day.
Stage 11: Good, long technical final climb, looks great, the first mountain makes a long range attack an option too, even if a strong team won't have much trouble avoiding that by controlling. Of course differences risk being small again, blockage in the last climb, early attack in most cases won't pay off. But on the other hand if you need to get rid of a 70TT guy with good mountain, 80 or so, here you can try with siebs.
Stage 12: Good, allows long range attacks, allows to use energy. Only worry is that maybe the downhills towards the end are a bit flattish? But well, to gain time you need to invest something, good.

The worry that I had in stage 9... The saw. Which appears in other stages too. Don't want to accuse Tukh of not checking well enough (but sort of do anyway?), but those repeated steep km, followed by a short downhill or flat km, then go up again... this somehow looks suspiciously like bad data, very often in those cases the climb is actually even, but due to switchbacks or other reasons the gpx file shows it as uneven.

Generally a good tour. Of course, it's clearly inspired by the great Tour designed by RKL in 2013 First half Mindanao, second half Luzon, same climbs at times... :lol: :lol: After SPIH, the Philippines, clever designers know, follow in RKL's footsteps. You don't need to reach the brilliance of the original. I just wish somebody would try Ethiopia....
But no, good tour. The criticisms I have are for the most part minor.
-Biggest one, is stage 13, just make it flat after the 2 climbs early, then you have that 5th flat stage I like (I have no relation with RKL, so don't tell me 4 ciudades is worse)
The rest is minor.
- Sprint a bit front loaded.
- Middle mountain stages a bit similar (RKL who?) (Might retract this one completely after some study, maybe all middle mountain stages are always similar, just never occured to me, will need to check a bit)
- Mountain a bit backloaded. (still don't know this RKL) 9-11-12. But the combination 9-12 works very well in itself.
- No fancy concept, pah, fancy concepts are fancy! And better a concept than no concept. Major problem actually now that I think of it.
- Winner of 2018 not taking a voluntary break the following year.

Can imagine voting for this not only in the first round, but in the second one also. But first will have to see the other tours.


Warning to Whisbone: 1 post per stage race. No comments in the other thread. If you have problems with the profiles, which seems to be the case, a) Try to change the profiles, if they are changed and saved under the same name as before, they will update in your original post automatically. b) If the editor is buggy (it is, at least for me, old profiles don't change even with new additions, but don't know in what cases, how long after the original saving, sometimes they change for me, most of the time not) then just edit the original post after saving the stage under a slightly different name. Anyway, once all is in order in one post I will delete/move the others... unless delete yourself, which would be much preferable
Kraftsystemrevision! Include the distance!
Basics reform: Give blue a chance!
Don't punish bugusers. We all have to use bugs, since most of them are declared as "features"!

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